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4.2>23 Life, love and letting the kid run the house?

miakoda

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Hello everyone:

This is my first post. I've been following your thoughtful interpretations for months now and I want to express my gratitude for the enrichment of my understanding of the Yi that you've given. I've been reading for 30 plus years (though many were spent in a kind of silent standoff with Wilhelm) and because of this site I've found great new translations and the revelation of the transitional hexagram. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. I'm a conversational reader of the Yi. I begin with a major question and then we go back and forth, having fairly long discussions about a matter. I keep a record of the answers and have learned the shorthand it sometimes uses with me, which lines seem consistently accurate in which translations and what will get my hand slapped, etc.

Through repeated readings, I have been being encouraged for awhile now to not be so, um, energetic in my problem solving, to allow myself to be more yin (lots of 17 in my life and stuff that leads to 2) and lately to allow 4 (as in 4.6>7)--which I sincerely follow as Karcher's Enveloping or Bradford's Inexperience, rather than Wilhelm's perjorative Youthful Folly.

Sorry to be so long winded! Here's the question:

Does anyone get 4.2? Karcher says: Enwrapped and enveloped. The way is open. Let in the wife. The way is open. The son can control the dwelling. He explains this as: Enveloping becomes caring for and protecting. This opens the way. The young son is mature enough to sustain and uphold the dwelling. I had asked the Yi: should I be following (this complex person who has been dancing and darting around in my life) and surrender, allowing myself to be enveloped in this situation? (He is younger than me, but so's my partner who in the past has clearly been referred to as the small son whereas the darting guy has been referred to as the experienced husbandman).

I thought it was very cool that they/it/you-know-who-or-what answered by talking about enveloping, but what it says I can't get my mind around. It isn't the first time I've gotten this one either. Sometimes I think letting in the wife means I should get someone in to clean my house! That'd be brilliant, if I could afford it.

Please, you brilliant bunch, illuminate this situation!

-Miakoda
 
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bruce_g

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Hi, Miakoda.

Sorry, I have nothing brilliant to offer, but I’ll offer my point of view on 4.2.

Hex. 4 speaks of the teacher/student relationship, and the proper and effective way each approaches it. The teacher and/or student may be yourself or another person, depending upon the specific reading. Sometimes it speaks across lines of self and others. Who is the teacher’s teacher if not the student?

Line 2, the student/unknowing/child begins to grow into puberty: the age of dating women. Along with this newfound expansion comes the responsibility of managing it. The kindly nature of the teacher encourages the lad to go out on his own.
 

martin

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Nah, I just asked if going to Turkey again in the autumn, like I did last year, would be a good idea. 4.2 > 23!

Hexagram 4: What I hear is basically "do it and you will find out, that is the only way".
My old friend Nigel Richmond says that this hexagram is about learning through experience. Yes, think so. That also explains why the text states that repeated questions will not be answered. Except "do it and learn" there is simply nothing more to say.

Added later: I don't mean to say that hex 4 advices to do it or "go for it". It seems to be neutral, one can do it or not. But doing it is the only way to find out.

Line 2: Not sure what to make of this line, but it sounds like the 'noble' is already a somewhat advanced pupil here, at least in this sense that shehe is aware of herhis lack of practical real life experience, is willing to be receptive and knows how to be receptive.
There is already a certain mastery of the art of listening perhaps or the art of learning. Learning also needs to be learned. By doing it ..

Well, this is my take on the answer I got for my question. Does it make sense to you in your situation? :)
 
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lightofreason

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4 shares space with 7 where both cover socialisiation issues - one unconditionally (07 - uniformity) and the other conditionally (04 - masking as compared to its opposite 49 - unmasking) - and so we can see the use of the term 'enveloping'.

The infrastructure of 04 is described by analogy to 19 and so the vague sense of 'approach the high as the high defers to the low' - in 04 this is with the focus on issus with a teacher.

From the outside 04 can be described as looking like qualities of 11 with a focus on mediation and so balancing/harmonising.

On the inside we have a focus on 12 and so on neutralising, attempts to avoid change or to avoid imposition of change ( and so to fight conformity)

04 gets its nourishment from a source best described by 53 - a focus on gradual development (as we find in educating, socialising etc)

23 emerging from this 04 focus reflects a development of a need for housekeeping - to get the house 'in order' and so bring out the core 'truths' where they can stand against any possible 'collapse' - approaching disorder.
 
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bruce_g

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Well, obviously, Martin, you’re past the age of puberty. :D

But really, your example works with my explanation. You’re capable of dealing with the trip, now it’s just a choice, as you’ve said.
 

philippa

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4.2 and responsibility

bruce_g said:
Line 2, the student/unknowing/child begins to grow into puberty: the age of dating women. Along with this newfound expansion comes the responsibility of managing it. The kindly nature of the teacher encourages the lad to go out on his own.

Hi Bruce (and Martin as well),

What an optimistic interpretation of 4.2!

I get a sense that 4.2 is optimistic in a sense that "embracing innocence" is ok (包蒙吉). I often wonder what the difference between 4.2 and 4.5 (童蒙吉), where in 4.5, being innocent is ok too here. Perhaps the difference has to do with the responsibility, which comes from the image of organizing a family in the last two lines?

(In fact, the related hexagram is 23. This makes me think that by taking on the responsibility, the essence/true nature of the situation will reveal itself. Yes no?)

Philippa
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Philippa,

I think both 4 and 4.2 are optimistic, but not solely optimistic. Every change presents an opportunity to advance, every circumstance can serve to further. And, every opportunity presents elements of danger, as 45 gathers both the beneficial and harmful.

Line 3 renounces self reliance and responsibility, and chooses rather to follow his peers or a leader.

Line 4 is one confused kid; that phase of feeling alone and misunderstood.

Line 5 returns to the way, finds spiritual core and guidance.

Line 6 speaks to the teacher, which he has now become.

23 from 4.2: he has to renounce being a baby.
 

philippa

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Hi Bruce,

I like your take on 4.2 leading to 23. I'm gradually learning more about 23. Taking your view, 23 is like shedding the skin, the persona of a student or an ignorant person.

bruce_g said:
I think both 4 and 4.2 are optimistic, but not solely optimistic. Every change presents an opportunity to advance, every circumstance can serve to further. And, every opportunity presents elements of danger, as 45 gathers both the beneficial and harmful.

Generally, I agree what you said above. What I'm not very sure of, is the advice on how to deal with or embrace one's "innocence". (Rosada! You have to speed up now! :))

bruce_g said:
Line 3 renounces self reliance and responsibility, and chooses rather to follow his peers or a leader.

So what's the difference between line 2 and line 3? Is line 3 a strong slap on the wrist for not taking responsibility?

bruce_g said:
Line 4 is one confused kid; that phase of feeling alone and misunderstood.

4.4 leads to 64. 64.4 speaks of a long term struggle. What is one to do here?

bruce_g said:
Line 5 returns to the way, finds spiritual core and guidance.

4.5 is also interesting. Unlike 4.2, 4.5 leads to 59. What does this mean? Dispersing ignorance?

bruce_g said:
Line 6 speaks to the teacher, which he has now become.

This is an interesting line. Speaking from personal experience, this reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said to me that I should get my degree done asap, then I wouldn't be in a subordinate position with all the professors above me -- I'll be one of "them".

4.6 leads to 7, a multitude, an organized force... The question is, do I want to be one of "them"?

Philippa
 

rosada

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I visit my neighbor every morning and read to her children. It's supposed to be "school" but sometimes I guess we get kinda lax. I think we're accomodating the moods of the kids, but the other day the three year old urged his younger brother, "Quick, get dressed or mommy and Zada will drink coffee!"
So maybe 4.2 is about the child's eyeview:
"To bear with fools in kindliness brings good fortune" Be nice to your parents, they're doing their best...
""To know how to take woman brings good fortune" Get mom wrapped around your little pinkie...
"The son is capable of taking charge of the household" In fact, he already has!
 
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martin

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I think the problem with the subject of line 3 is that he is lazy and wants to be spoonfed.
Line 3 is the middle line of the inner trigram thunder and when this line changes the trigram becomes lake, I guess that's why the text mentions a maiden or a woman who goes after wealth.

We go from an active and energetic selfreliant mode (thunder) to one in which we adapt and follow and are relatively passive and perhaps too sensual and superficial (lake).
This is not in accord with what is required in this hexagram, learning by experience, by active doing. Lake represents that part of ourselves that wants to learn the easy way (if there is any real desire to learn at all), without getting dirty hands.

In a class, the typical line 3 pupils don't make the excercises but look the answers up or copy them from friends. Meanwhile they polish their nails or comb their hair and pass notes to the good looking girl or boy next to them. "My parents are away tonight, you come?" :)
As travelers line 3's stay in bed in their hotel and read a travel guide about the country they are in or watch a local TV channel.
And so on .. :D
 
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miakoda

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I think I get it...

Wow!

Thanks for all the lightbulbs.

After reading what you've offered, my take on 4.2 in my situation is that I'm being told that it's time to move beyond asking for specific guidance--in this, perhaps I'm ready to learn experientially. Like Yoda saying that backwards there is no try, just do, or whatever it was that he said.

4.2 may also have resonance and implications in other aspects of this relationship in that the person is an artist who teaches. His approach to me is sometimes as an equal, but sometimes my impression is that he's thinking of me in terms of what I could learn from him about life, love and the pursuit of happiness.

It hadn't occurred to me that I might be the son in this hex and that it could be both indicative of my relationship with the Yi and the he.

Thanks again,

Miakoda
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Philippa,

So what's the difference between line 2 and line 3? Is line 3 a strong slap on the wrist for not taking responsibility?

Only if our own punitive nature believes we deserve it. The purpose is to learn from it.

4.4 leads to 64. 64.4 speaks of a long term struggle. What is one to do here?

I don't know how long term it is, but the result is losing everything. What one does is, to move forward from line 4 to line 5, because they're not yet complete.

4.5 is also interesting. Unlike 4.2, 4.5 leads to 59. What does this mean? Dispersing ignorance?

Yes! I like that. Dispersion of ignorance, but not through discipline or adherence to a rigid set of rules. You can't whip yourself into innocence, it has to come by itself, as a child, fearing nothing.

4.6 leads to 7, a multitude, an organized force... The question is, do I want to be one of "them"?

No, one with them. ;)
 

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