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Resulting hexagrams - who needs 'em?

dobro p

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Devil's advocate.

The whole idea of resulting hexagrams is a neat idea, but it's a fiction, right?

Let's say I draw 15.2. The resulting hexagram theory says that means the situation is tending in the direction of Hex 46. But I don't think so. Oh sure, the situation could very well be tending in the direction of Hex 46. But 15.2 could JUST AS EASILY BE TENDING IN THE DIRECTION OF ANY OF THE OTHER 449 VARIABLES IN THE YI.

To think that every time you draw 15.2, the situation is moving in the direction of Hex 46... well that's just limiting and lacking in imagination.

Well, okay, I admit it. I wasn't just being a devil's advocate on this one. I really believe it. If you draw 15.2, that's all you get - 15.2.
 

yly2pg1

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Hi Dobro,

I notice that it is not easy to relate space-time with Hex#15.

15.2 calls for a humble attitude. A genuine and natural one like a tree rises from the earth (image of Hex46).

The implication of space-time at Hex15 and some others is perturbing sometimes. May need some lights from some of you. Tq
 

anon99

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It always made more sense to me interpreting the 'resulting'hex as the backdrop to the situation - rather than the development of the situation. So I see no 'tending to' but 'developing out of'. Thus the background - what gave rise to 15,2 is 46.
 

dobro p

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"So I see no 'tending to' but 'developing out of'. Thus the background - what gave rise to 15,2 is 46."

Again, I see this as such a limited view of the way things are. There are 450 variables in the Yi. Any of them can give rise to any other as far as I can tell. 15.2 can arise out of *any* situation or line in the Yi. Why should 15.2 *always* arise out of Hex 46?
 

hilary

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I have a lot of sympathy for anyone who doesn't want to limit Yi's scope. But Dobro, I worry about what's happening to the baby as you enthusiastically drain out the bathwater here. 15,2 does 'point to' 46 - that's built into the structure of the thing. So isn't it possible that this structural link might deepen one's understanding of 15,2?
 

hilary

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Btw, things can and often do develop out of what they tend towards.
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yly2pg1

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Background conditions allow things to develop, i guess, right? So some Hexagrams like Hex#15 provide a nurturing condition out of which things grow and develop ...
 

dobro p

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The universe is in constant flux, and expresses pattern in doing so.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps 15.2 always arises out of or unfolds towards 46.

Or perhaps I'm right. Perhaps the universe can come up with 15.2 out of virtually any situation, and can similarly move toward any other situation.

Based on my experience of life, I'd say the latter view is more likely. Also, I'd say that this is not so much throwing the baby out with the bathwater as allowing 449 other babies the opportunity of a nice bath.
 

dobro p

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There is this, though: let's say 15.2 has an intimate and reliable connection with 46 (or 46.2). (In fact, I think it does have that connection, but that it's one of inherent meaning rather than a temporal issue - it doesn't arise out of or unfold toward 46, but it contains aspects of the meaning of 46 in it.)

It's then easy enough to say: "Okay, every time you get 15.2, it's necessary or useful to consider 46 or 46.2. 46 or 46.2 are part of the whole package, so to speak. However, once you've done that, please understand that the situation can change into any other situation in the wink of an eye.
 

cguleff

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Dobro,

Appreciate your thread. To me, if the I Ch'ing is truly the Book of Change, it has to have some mechanism to indicate change or lack of change, as in a static situation. Many introductions imply that the first hex is current and the resulting hex is the future, and that's not always true, of course. It has worked that way for some of my readings, but often, the resulting hex has another, more cogent meaning. I'm no expert -- I'm often baffled by the resulting hex. However, I do believe that the concept of the resulting hex has merit.

Thanx,
Chris
 

dobro p

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I'm completely convinced of an intimate connection between an individual line and the 'resulting' hexagram or corresponding line in that hexagram.

I'm much less convinced that, say, when you draw 15.1 and 15.2, Hex 11 comes into the picture. But having said that, check out the thread in this forum called '2 and feedback'. Amazing stuff.
 
J

jesed

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Interesting issue Dobro

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

1.- According with traditional teachings, hexagrams are models from reality, not the reality. It means, hexagram (answer hexagram and related hexagram and nuclear hexagram and so on...) is like a picture of the ACTUAL situation. It means 2 important things: a) every time, the hexagrams must be croos-checked with reality; and b) every posterior fact (our choices and movements included) will affect the real outgoing. That`s why in traditionial teachings one doesn't say: 46 is the future or the final outgoing but just a tendence of outgoing.

2.- I have a metaphora for this:
Think in vectors analysis.

a) You had localized a ball in cartessian map. Example: X1Y2 (X is vertical exe and Y is horizontal exe)
b) You see there are 4 force-vectors affecting the ball in point X1Y2 (vector 1 from west to east; vector 2 from south to north; vector 3 form southwest to northeast; and vector 4 also from southwest to northeast)

Knowing that, you can said (as a tendece) that ball will move, and ends its movement in point X5Y4.

Of course, the ball IS NOT in X5Y4. That means that there is no written future; is just a tendece.
Of course, theoricaly the ball could move to any point in the cartessian map. But the tendece, with those particular vectors only moves to X5Y4 and never to X10Y1

Now, if in reality those forces act on the ball, the ball will move to X5Y4. But if 2 seconds after the forces hit the ball, another force vector (from North to South) hits the ball.. then the ball will not end in X5Y4 but in X3Y1...

Now: the ball is the situation; the localized point is the present (described in the answer hexagram or first hexagram); the 4 vectors are Tao, Heaven, Human and Earth Luck (described in Changing Lines). The point of expected ending of the ball is the tendence of outgoing situation (described in related hexagram).

If you undestand well the advices of the answer you got, you can take an action that directs the situation the way you want to be (the later force vector)

An this late paragrafh is the most important teaching in Yi Jing: You cannot fight against Tao, neither Heaven... but always, always, you have a chance to direct your own life.

Best wishes
 

greenowl

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How does Yi prioritize what to give us in a reading, anyway?

I'm thinking of some examples from (I think) right here on this site where it seemed as if the changing lines were of overriding importance, OR that the changing lines seemed comparatively irrelevant and all you really needed was the two hexagrams...

Seriously. Suppose for a certain question, the absolute perfect answer is (totally random example) 19.3. If the I Ching was human, that's all it would say.

But it can't, since it's bound by the format of how we cast hexagrams. So in order to give us 19.3 it has to give us 2 hexagrams along with it, and hope that we're clever enough to not get hung up on them.

Stuff like that.
 

jte

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Hi, Green

"I'm thinking of some examples from (I think) right here on this site where it seemed as if the changing lines were of overriding importance, OR that the changing lines seemed comparatively irrelevant and all you really needed was the two hexagrams... "

I agree that you have to look for *what the answer is* - sometimes it's in the line text and sometimes it's in the Hex-to-Hex and the lines just give that to you. I've heard anecdotes of the answer being in the Hex title or even the number, and I myself sometimes find it's in a snippet of commentary.

MHO, this indicates that the Yi is an intelligence that tries to communicate with you and hopes/intends for you to do some "decoding" of it's message, given your particular question and context (and even your preferred style of interpretation).

My 2 cents,

- Jeff
 

greenowl

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Another question (and then I'll go away and let somebody else post *g*):

If you think of each hexagram as 1/64th of 'total life experience' (well, first of all, is that valid? assuming for a second it is) - okay, since there are only so many possible primary/relating pairs, does that mean that if there is NO WAY for hexagram X to change into hexagram Y - that then 'life experience X' does not and cannot ever have any relation to 'life experience Y'?

Does that make any sense?

If I was more organized I'd come up with an example...maybe I'll go away and do that...
 

greenowl

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Darn cross-posting...

Thanks for your answer, Jeff.

Wonder if Yi would have an easier time, though, if it could just say what it wanted without having to 'format' it - or, as Hilary is implying (I think), it's not that way at all - that's just simply not a good angle to wonder about?
 
B

bruce

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Hi Greenowl,

I'm not sure of anything that can?t be looked at from more than one angle, and everything can be looked at from any hexagram's lens. I think that's a fair statement. You could throw darts at a Yi target with two darts, and your cognitive mind will be able to sew together a meaningful answer to your question.

That is not to say that I believe consulting the oracle is that simple or random, but in theory at least, any combinations can speak to you about a given question. How much more if, as Jeff suggests, there is a greater intelligence behind the answer?
 

ithaki

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

since there are only so many possible primary/relating pairs, does that mean that if there is NO WAY for hexagram X to change into hexagram Y - that then 'life experience X' does not and cannot ever have any relation to 'life experience Y'? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Every single hexagram can turn into any other hexagram, so you don't have the situation where X can never have any relation to Y.
 

greenowl

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Okay, am back with proper example...

I picked hexagram 5, Waiting, and listed all the hexagrams that could possibly become its relating hexagram, and also listed other associated hexagrams (nuclear, inverted, opposite, exchanged).

What's left over is a bunch of hexagrams that (as far as I know) seem to have no direct connection to hexagram 5.

Three of those, picked just for example, are 14, 22, and 23.

What does that imply in real life?

That there is no connection between a condition of 'Waiting' and a condition of 'Great Treasures' or 'Embellishing' or 'Stripping'?

So...if we 'Wait,' we won't ever be 'Stripped' but we'll also never find 'Grace' or 'Beauty'? (or if we wait we'll never fritter our time away on foolish adornment, depending on how one thinks about hex 22.) And if we 'Wait' we'll never 'Greatly Have' anything?

Maybe...I mean, if by 'waiting' we mean 'sitting around like a bump on a log,' then probably nothing much at ALL will happen.

But that's not really what hex 5 means, or not all it means, and besides, I can think of several ways a person could be 'stripped' if they sat around like a bump on a log!

*shrug*

I hope I haven't confused my original question/point beyond all recognition
howmuch.gif
; if so I'll try to ask it better.
 

ithaki

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Hexagram 5 can turn into 14, if lines 4,5 and 6 change. It can turn into 22, if lines 2, 5 and 6 change. It can turn into any other hexagram.
 

greenowl

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Bruce and Ithaki,

Cross-posting again...

You can see in my last cross-posted post (with the hex 5 example) what I had in mind by 'hex X related to hex Y.'

Apparently I'm missing something, since you both seem to be saying every hexagram IS related to every other hexagram.

Is there perhaps some very roundabout way that hex 5 is related to 14, 22, 23, etc? All I mean is that there's no combination of changing lines that changes 5 into any of those, nor are any of those the nuclear, inverted, etc. hexagram of hex 5, unless I've made a stupid mistake someplace.

And, okay - assume in your next post(s) you'll show me the unobvious way of getting from 5 to 22 or whatever. What does that mean in real life? That MAYBE you can find Beauty through Waiting, but only indirectly? That the real-life connection between a condition of Waiting and a condition of Stripping is much more vague than the connection between Waiting and, say, Family Duties (05, lines 2 and 5, changing to 37)?

I'm just trying to think about how the connections between a particular hexagram and the hexagrams it can 'change into' (or not) would translate into everyday real-life situations, is all...I'm probably not expressing very well what I'm wondering about...
 

greenowl

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Oh good grief I'm an idiot.

How could I possibly have forgotten to list all the 3-, 4-, 5-, and (one) 6- changing line hexagrams resulting from hex 5?!?!?!?

Crawling back under my wee rock now........
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B

bruce

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"And, okay - assume in your next post(s) you'll show me the unobvious way of getting from 5 to 22 or whatever."

5 - 22
waiting gracefully
nourishing chi while waiting
holding back with grace

It doesn't matter which two or how many change lines. There's always a relationship between elements, even or especially if they're opposites.
 
B

bruce

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Oh, and welcome to the idiot's club. We all get to sit in that chair once in awhile.
clown.gif
 

heylise

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The only example we have from really old texts is the expression "hexagram this its that hexagram".
Hexagram 1 its 10 is the third line, the one which makes 1 change into 10. Makes a lot of sense: hex.1's 'treading' is being busy when the light is bright and being apprehensive when it is dark/dangerous.
Hex.15.2 its 46 is the line about expressing 'appropriate demeanor' in a way which makes the best chance of ascent.

I think the resulting hex as the one the situation can turn into, or as its background are both valid. As if you are standing in the same room, you being the initial hex, and the relating hex another person. The situation is different because there is someone else present. You can ignore him, but he will still influence what happens. Or you can turn to him. Use him to your advantage, or being annoyed by his presence.

LiSe
 

jerryd

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Just from the perspective of my inner self and my belief.........life is not a static un moving entity and from the time the question is ask till the answer is recieved the actual time from ask to answer has developed a new meaning and new set of consiquence or value.

It I am ask to read a question from the position of developeing an absolute, there is no reason to ask the question as there is no way to determine a definative (answer) unless the Oracle him(her)self showes up to answer it.

What ever the hex formed is, moving line or not, we have only a decision on how we are to interpert it and this is as close as an individual can come to any form of accuracy without creating just this type of conversation.

IMHO/ abnerannon/

http://thenotsocommonman.blogspot.com
 

void

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Thanks LiSe I never really saw that or thought of it before - what you said about "hex 1 its 10 is the third line".
 

greenowl

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Bruce,

Thanks for helping with 5 > 22!

Useful interpretations like that are what I much too often don't see on my own, but slap my head and say 'duh' to myself when someone else comes up with them.

GreenOwl (out from beneath her rock
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)
 
B

bruce

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LiSe, I like that 'standing in the room' idea. Never thought of it that way before.

Hi GreenOwl, the obvious is also the most easily overlooked. Welcome back into the sunshine.
happy.gif
 

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