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2.6 dueling dragons

clarissa

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What's going on with these dragons? What are they fighting about? Whatever the reason it seems to be pretty exhausting.
 
J

jesed

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His Clarissa

Just in case the commentary can be usefull

According with traditional teachings:

Line 6 is the Sage's or the Heaven's site. In hexagram 2 is a warning: if you try to get a site that is not for you, you are being arrogant and will be harm (the line 6 of hexagram 2 shows an injust rebelion against the real dragon; is something like the myth of Lucifer against God in cristianism. But cristians won't say that God was harmed too
happy.gif
)

Best wishes
 
H

hmesker

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Since my website is down for 3 days already because of a DDoS attack of the server on which it resides, I give myself a little more time to think and ponder. And pondering about 2-6 I thought, does it really mean 'fighting dragons in the wild'? I mean, why would a dragon, such a wonderful and highly venerated creature, fight with someone of his own kind? It sounds odd to me. The Chinese text does not explicitly say that there is more than one dragon, so it could equally be one. But then zhan, 'war/fight' does not make sense.

At 2-6 it says that 'its blood is dark yellow'. There is one creature which has yellow blood: the silkworm, or more specific, the Bombyx Mandarina. It is generally agreed that the domestic silkworm, B. mori, was derived from the wild silkworm, B. Mandarina, about 5,000 years ago in China (http://aedes.biosci.arizona.edu/PDFPapers/ref147.pdf). Pondering: could long, 'dragon', refer to a silkworm? zhan can also mean 'struggle', or 'tremble, shiver'. 'A silkworm struggling/trembling in the open field' could be a silkworm which has just come out of his cocoon, bringing his wings to full development. Or, since it talks about blood, maybe the moth was injured. Would that be a bad omen?

But if we look at the dragon/silkworm in hexagram 1, what does it mean that 'the silkworm is hidden' and should not be used? Line 2, 'seeing silkworms in the cultivated field' makes more sense. But the 6th line? Nah.

Pondering, pondering.....

Harmen.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Harmen

I liked so much your web, and thougts.

Just in case it could be usefull:
Let's not forget that the comentaries of the lines (acoording with tradition, of course) are derived from the structure of the hexagram.

In this case: hex 1 is Heaven and Force or Energy(so is simbolized by a heavenly and energical animal: the dragon) and hex 2 is Earth and Field and Docility (so is simbolized by an "earthly" and docil animal).

Now, Line 6. Is the top line/place, an extreme or excess. And because of being a secuencial hexagram, a warning.

The top place should be used by yang energy(heaven...) but in hex 2 is used by yinn energy (earth..) So, the line 6 in hex 2 is not correct, is injustice.

And because the complete hexagram is about docility (total yinn), the injustice is that yinn energy had lose it's docility triyng to use a yang place... so it's become a "false yang".

This is simbolized by a false dragon fighting against the real drag?n... a rebeli?n, a lack of docility because of excessive ego.. and so on.

You asked: "why would a dragon, such a wonderful and highly venerated creature, fight with someone of his own kind?" According with traditional teachings, is because real dragon is not fighting against "someone of his own kind" but against a false one.

Best wishes
 
H

hmesker

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Hi Jesed,

Although I do not want to rule out the possibility that the text is 'derived from the structure of the hexagram', I do not want to use it as a guide for translating the text. That is a personal choice, of course.

You say that the top line denotes an extreme, an excess. I agree, but I do not see a 'warning' in 2-6, just a description of something that is observed.

If the author(s) of the text meant to talk about the fight of a real dragon with a false dragon, I think they would specifically mention that. Nevertheless I find your interpretation valuable.

I still like they idea of long as 'silkworm', though. I found an oracle bone inscription in the Jiaguwen Zidian where the character for 'silk' is used in the same sentence with 'dragon', I have to decipher it yet. Food for thought. The picture of the dragon on oracle bones could equally well be a silkworm, considering the long tail (= silk thread?) it has.

Bruce - let's keep it to one: Mozilla. Still my favourite browser....

Warm wishes,

Harmen.
 
B

bruce

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Don?t know if this is useable, or not.

I received 2.6 just before an awkward event, with a group of people that had split apart (relating gua to 2.6, btw) over a company takeover. There were quite a few hard feelings yet among the group. Since I was the first to see the writing on the wall, I resigned from my job and group before the takeover began, and was considered something of a rebel/black sheep. (I know, hard to imagine.) The group was pretty upset with me for leaving, since I was their supervisor. All this made the setting for my 2.6 reading.

The reading made me paranoid as hell, looking here and there for the big fight between light and dark that would surely ensue, but it never came. The house-party reunion was entirely fun and friendly.

So where was 2.6? In my paranoia! I should have read LiSe?s translation:

Above 6: Dragons struggle in the wild. Their blood is black and yellow.
Not accepting fate means one brings about a life full of difficulties. One does not only fight what happens, but more than anything else one fights one's own soul. Accept life the way it is and cherish it, then any life will be a good life.
 

hilary

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I looked at my notes on 2.6 and found something I copied and pasted from Steve Marshall - I think it must have been either on his blog or on a list, so hopefully he won't mind having it posted here.

<blockquote>?I asked about the outcome of the Tiananmen Square student occupation in 1989 and got the top line of hexagram 2 a couple of days before the tanks went in: 'Dragons battling in the wilds. Their blood is black and yellow.'

Traditionally this line is seen as revolutionaries taking on a much stronger power (a dragon-like challenge to the ruling dragon). The stronger power quashes them but both sides are injured in the process (injury to the ruling dragon was the Chinese government's loss of standing in the world). Of course, in the past a dragon-like challenge to the the ruling dragon has sometimes resulted in revolution and change of dynasty, and so roles are reversed, it turns out the ruling dragon was in fact the false dragon, it had lost the mandate of heaven. In the case of Tiananmen, however, all the students had was moral power. Had they had firepower and a strategy it could well have been a different story. The image of the man who stopped the column of tanks is unlikely to be forgotten. Who is the true dragon, ask yourself that when looking at that picture.?</blockquote>
 

jte

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I like this bit from the commentary in Brad's translation, too. I think it fits well with *some* of the situations that 2.6 can refer to...

"This is not a power struggle: power does not struggle. It is force exhausting itself. This would be sad enough if it didn?t spill out of the mind and chop up the world."

- Jeff
 

kevin

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And the Relating Hexagram 23 gives us a clue too, I think.

For me it belies the 'Mating Dragons' perspective.

--Kevin
 

kevin

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I am unsure of the concept of Force being used in reference to Hexagram 2... Unless it is The arrogance of the Supple which has reached such a fullness it presumes to Force?.

--Kevin
 

kevin

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Greetings Mr B - I don't think I've understood your idea...

Appart from the top line changing to a Yang... Where is the other?

And I am not sure Hx.2 is quite 'darkness'... and it existed before the two dragons appeared in the top line text...

err... Yes - I am missing your point here I am sure.

mischief.gif


--Kevin
 
B

bruce

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Hi Mr K,

You're right. Too short. Details, details!
mischief.gif


2 IS darkness, first off. I didn't say nor mean badness, but yin is the dark, just as the moon has no light but that which is reflected off it from the sun.

When yin and yang meet, there is relatedness, just as when a positive contacts a ground in an electrical current. But two positive wires makes no electricity, therefore no light.

The pretense of line 6 is that of being yang. Having a yang face doesn't make it so, however. Force + force - grounding = no force, no light, no electricity, hence only darkness.

But I know this without using numbers or the I Ching. My weakened heart tells me this is so. When I am relaxed and open (yin), my heart functions with ease. Or, when I use force (yang) and the other party is relaxed and open, my heart also functions with ease. But when I use force (yang) and the other party is also using force (yang), my heart closes, becomes inert, cramped and very darkened, very much like the effect/affect of line 6 in 2: both suffer. So my short comment above was not at all thought out. It didn?t need to be. My heart tells me it?s so. That?s why I?m learning to avoid meeting power with power, within and without. I?d rather live in the light. It?s impossible to make love and argue at the same time.
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kevin

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Sigh... That was good.

Or force where receptiveness is appropriate?... yes, I am with you now.

Glad you have not gone mad... yet
biggrin.gif


--Kevin
 
B

bruce

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Yes, yang/force is amoral, in the way I'm intending it. Yin as well.

Oh, well, madness. Yes, that. Um, well, too late to turn back from that I'm afraid. But at least I'm happy this way.
crazy.gif
 

bradford_h

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Everybody just ignored my little duel-ism pun,
but look at it in terms of splitting apart.
Wholeness is compromised here. Two colors of
blood are shed. No good comes of this fantasy
of half the world VERSUS the other.
 

kevin

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Indeed Brad...

And everyone ignored my comments on 23 too.

And that large fruit looks particularly interesting when viewed from this angle.

Looking again at 23 as a Tidal Gua with the moon all but 'eaten away' just before the dark of the new moon... there is a large fruit uneaten... the last bright line of the wane.

And will it not give in to the change in 2.6?

Just floating images down the stream... a Pooh Stick off the bridge.

--Kevin
 
B

bruce

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"a Poo Stick off the bridge"

Mr K, now that's an interesting title!
 

bradford_h

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Hi-
Just a note on "qi xue xuan huang"
they bleed indigo (and) golden, or
their blood (is) indigo (and) gold
Clearly wht they have in common is blood,
despite their differences, which, relative
to living are superficial. Xuan is the
average color of night, and the study of
the mysterious is called Xuanxue. Huang is
the average color of the day and light.
Technically it's more of a light yellow-
brown, like the loess soils in central China,
the background color of Hilary's website and
mine, and, not so coincidentally, the average
color of the Univese:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020702.html
(Hilary's also has indigo, extreme left)
Huang is best translated gold, however, to
impart the subjective value which this color was
given by the ancient Chinese, and it Was the
color name given to both bronze and gold.
 
B

bruce

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Brad, interesting. This is where 'yellow is the color of the mean' comes from then, I assume.

So are you saying that the color of blood isn't especially significant in 2.6? but more the contrast of elements themselves?
 

bradford_h

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The color of the blood might be the very reason for the battle. The fact of blood itself is the reason for the reconciliation of these opposites, back into the harmony and wholeness that is the theme of Hexagram 02.
 

bradford_h

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This brings up a point about Zhi Gua too.
Splitting apart is the direction it's headed
"If You Don't Watch Out". Sometimes it can be a warning sign.
Coming back, in 23.6, things are returning to
wholeness, following a difficult time, where the conflict or
difficulty "just sort of resolved itself for the best", the real
meaning of the phrase "it's all good".
 

kevin

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Hmm - 23 Stripping down and getting to the essentials is the direction it is headed too.

Back to foundations - releasing the core essence rather than getting tangled up in the arogant stuff.

Sadly for other folk I ate the large fruit cos' no-one wanted to come and talk about it.

The line,23.6, saddly, is now...
'Wu shuo guo bu shi
jun zi shi maozi!!!'

But instead of, "Well mate, you see one dragon has dark blue blood and the other yellow so that's why they are fighting like." Perhaps?

If Xue were to be representative of the mysterious what might indigo be representative of that it is, possibly, the symbol of the difference here?

--Kevin

Maozi is a rather modern word for hat btw
 

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