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Help with 41

millie

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I need help with 41 unchanging. I received it in answer to a question of how best to respond to a friend's note. 41 is about giving away and making an offering, but it's also about condensing. I just can't get my head around how to apply it in this situation, or really what kind of offering to make.
 

cal val

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Hi Millie...

Can the axiom, "Less is more" apply to your correspondence with this friend? Just a thought.

Love,

Val
 

millie

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I don't think so. We don't correspond very often. Not sure what less would be except nothing. I notice I didn't receive 33, which obviously would be more clear and direct in meaning.
 

sherab

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Millie,
Perhaps you would like to communicate and the other person does not? Tui, the lower trigram, wants to talk and connect, while Ken, the upper is standing there with arms folded, making a boundary or limit, and might be saying, I don't want to proceed with this communication, I want it to stop right there - which can be rather painful for Tui. #41 can be about giving up something so that the whole situation can benefit - a sacrifice. One's personal feelings are what is being offered, however humble or personal or whatever. The Image suggests that restraining passion and emotion is the appropriate conduct here - different from #33, which is to turn around and leave. #41 can leave one feeling diminished, but somehow it feeds the whole situation. Yes? No? What think you?
Sherab
 

millie

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sherab - well your ideas would make a good analysis if i received 41 in answer to "what's going on?" but in fact, i just received a note from her, and my question to yi was specificaly about how best to respond to this note. so i'm trying to understand 41 in this context: what to do, or not do. that's why i'm trying to figure out what the offering and sacrifice is all about.

in terms of the larger question of the relationship, you might want to know that the other day, before receiving this note, i did ask yi how best to approach our relationship, and received 31.
 

millie

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"41 can leave one feeling diminished, but somehow it feeds the whole situation" can you explain more of what you mean here?
 
J

jesed

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Just an example about the use of ruler line in unchanging hexagram:

From image you have a first advice about how to response: "The noble one controls anger and restrains passion" (I'm following LiSe's translation)

Now, 41 has 3 ruler lines (3,5 y 6)
Line 3 say: "Three people moving, then the rule is one person is diminished. One person moving, then the rule is one finds a friend." Wich one is your case: a) there are 3 persons (you, your friend and another one)? o b) you have find a friend?
(seems to me, in case a) someone is jelous in case b) you shouldn't have doubts about meeting that friend)

But the stongest ruler is 5 "Someone's increase. Ten pairs of tortoise shells and nothing is able to contradict it. Eminent auspiciousness" You have nothing to be affraid, you don`t need Oracle's answer to find the best way to respond.

Summary: the best way to respond that note is controlling anger and restrainning fear or passion (jelous?). Acting like that, this time of "empty couldron" (I love this LiSe's translation) between you will be over.

Best wishes
 

brian

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It is often best to give less and remain sincere, rather than to give more at the expense of ones own sincerity in giving.

Do not overtax your means when giving, for this is a way in which we undermine our generosity and good intentions, a way in which giving subtly becomes forfieture.
 

sherab

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Millie,
What I meant about feeling diminished but it feeding the whole situation... an example would be if you were starting a business, and everything goes into it - for a while you would intentionally do without extras - a sacrifice of a sort for the benefit of the whole.
In terms of what to do/not to do, the Image says to control anger and restraint passions.
How did you understand #31 when you drew it last week?
Sherab
 

ellenj

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Millie,

How 41 applies to your note probably depends on what it's about, but I have an idea of what it might be telling me about my own letter-writing
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(which might not apply to you at all):

Reply to the note in as simple and straightforward, sincere and honest a manner as possible - 'decrease' your words. Pare down your reply to the bare essentials - not rudely terse or abrupt, just concise.

Such as, don't say more than you have to, don't anticipate your friend's reactions before she's had them, don't overexplain, don't go off on tangents, don't babble, don't be a Chatty Cathy...(these are all things I'm inclined to do.)

Don't gossip, don't go on about the weather, or how cute your cats are, or the details of your stomachache or burning last night's dinner.

Or maybe it's referring more to the tone of your response than to the wordiness. Don't be overemotional (in whatever emotion applies to this), don't be too cheerful, don't try too hard to be witty, don't overdo gushy sympathy or whatever.

Or, don't ask too many questions, don't pry, don't try too hard to be helpful, don't 'push' information or offers of assistance or something too hard at your friend (which might make things awkward if she then feels like she is being pushed into something she really doesn't want, if that makes any sense.)

Or maybe it just means don't use too many exclamation points!! You know?!?? Or smileys
biggrin.gif
happy.gif
howmuch.gif
sad.gif
shades.gif
!!!!!!

(Or don't be too silly, like me. Ahem.)

In other words - maybe try to think of all the various ways in which your potential response could possibly be excessive, and then decrease whatever applies.

What made me think of this is hexagram 31, so thanks for mentioning it. Hexagram 31, as I understand it, advises letting a relationship develop naturally and easily, without trying too hard or 'pursuing' the other person (romantically or otherwise) - free of control, manipulation, or ulterior motives.

Just a nice balanced stress-free relationship. Neither person is in a stronger or weaker position than the other. Neither one is taking advantage or asking advantage. Neither dominant nor clingy be.

I'm just throwing out everything I can possibly think of here or find in my notes, having no idea what, if any of it, might apply to you.

I can very much relate to worrying about notes and letters and such things, though - it's hard.

Another thing you might try is to write out a response to the best of your ability, keep it in front of you, concentrate on it, and ask the I Ching something like 'How appropriate is this note I just wrote to _______?'

I've done readings like that MANY times and gotten some very helpful feedback.

Good luck.

Ellen
 

void

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Well I really enjoyed that response Ellen - I reckon you covered all angles there.

Recently someone treated me very oddly when I met them and I didn't know what to make of it at all. I asked Yi 'was this person rejecting me ?' I received 41, lines 1 and 5. I think it seems they weren't exactly rejecting me just doing all the things Ellen described above, ie not being chatty when they are normally very chatty, not extending themselves to me in anyway. I was sad as normally this person does everything Ellen says not to. She usually would go on alot about the weather, how cute her cats are, her heartburn after dinner - its what I find lovable about her, sniff
sad.gif
. I couldn't ask what was up so asked Yi, getting 41, 1 and 5, so from that assumed she was merely doing what was essential in cmmunication and no more. Line 5 puzzles me here though, always has done since it goes against the whole idea of 41. Anyone got any ideas on how to read it ?
 

ellenj

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Void,

The reason I posted all that (other than just being a silly goose with verbal diarrhea) is that it's what helps me connect to the I Ching, as a relative novice - reading through (or compiling), a list of possible ways to express Yi's symbology and language in modern, everyday, idiomatic English. If I'm lucky, some particular turn of phrase will 'grab' me and all will be clear.

As for your reading - those lines ARE difficult to make sense of for the situation you described, but I'll try a guess...

Line 1 Some of the notes I have for this are (I irresponsibly neglected to write down in my Word document where I got this stuff from, which was not necessarily my own head, so I'm going to be posting stuff without attribution here. My apologies to the author(s)):

-------------------
You feel compelled to help someone else, and you give your help joyfully.
You leave your own tasks.
It's good when you FINISH your tasks and THEN help others, but not necessarily to help while leaving your own stuff undone.
--------------------
Maybe just take the general sense of this without being literal. It's talking about someone having tasks, and how to play that against being involved with other people.

It might just mean that your friend was preoccupied, distracted, busy, in a hurry, had their mind on a bunch of other things. Simple as that, nothing more.

Line 5:

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if a man is in the position and possesses the qualities suggested by the line, then even if the auguries go against him, good fortune will nevertheless accrue to him.
being true is as good as bond, make no mistakes
Let him not crack his shells to question his fortune
By decreasing himself, he actually allows increases to accrue, and thereby fulfils the words of the line judgement here
The great good fortune attached to the fifth line, divided, is due to the blessing from above.
Focus on utility, essentials, not the surface
Don?t use to question fate?s decree, don?t need the whole true story.
----------------------
I think this line is telling you to not worry about it. You like this person and she likes you, period. This is a blessing to you both from Heaven, it's freely given, it won't be retracted, so just relax and enjoy it. Yi's saying that in this case, with this person, you're perfectly safe in just accepting that. You don't need to read between the lines with this person, or second-guess your friendship.

Does that make sense at all? If it rings true to you, it's VERY lovely news! This might be a good example of it being helpful to hear it from Yi rather than the other person directly. If you ASK someone something like this, there's always the doubt that they could be just telling you what they think you want to hear. If Yi says it, you know it's true.
happy.gif


Ellen
 

void

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Hi Ellen, I love your verbal diarrhea, on no account must you ever diminish it...I think its a nice fluid way of writing and often quite funny, you have made me laugh a few times..Thanks for your input on 41,1 and 5 it was very helpful. I hope its right. To tell the truth I took her behaviour to heart as rejection even while I saw this answer was indicating it may not be so - as such. Your interpretation of the lines has cheered me up no end.
 

millie

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wow. thanks to both of you, ellen and void. good stuff here. before reading your responses i asked yi how my friend was feeling about me and receive 41.1.5 to 7 myself!! my response was disappointment, because i didn't like seeing that additional 41. it felt like bad news. but you've helped me to see it differntly. what you write does ring true for me. this friend and i are connected. we like each other. period. and i do believe she has been pre-occupied with tasks, but still in the past this wouldn't have caused her to communicate in such a condensed, way. but now i'm not taking it personally. as for how best for me to respond, the 41 seems to suggest that i too, am best served to respond in the simpliest of ways. that's all that's needed. and somehow, this simple kind of response will be in the end, as val said, less is more.
 

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