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Yi about whereabouts of itself?

soshin

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The Yi about the origin of the Yi.

Dear all,

A few days ago I happened to read a book about the Mawangdui version of the Yi (Author: D. Hertzer, not available in English) when suddenly, because of the many uncertainities regarding the origin of the Yi adressed in this book, I *had* to ask:

"Where are you from?"

The answer was interesting, to say the least:


1, 1/2/3 to 12

What do you think about this?

Amazement appeared, like one is amazed sometime looking at a star-filled sky. What a beauty...

Namaste,


Soshin
 
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Trojina

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Do tell then ? I don't get it but not sharpest tool in box today, lol.
 

soshin

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1 to 12

Well.

Understood it as "From the divine and formless, with its clarity and power (from the potential - Hexagram 1) into the Form (Hexagram 12)".

"Graphically" I see this answer as a beauty, because the first hexagram is unspoiled, the second one is Yang and Yin evenly distributed.

Saw it as a very valid answer. Authorship of the Yi - the numinous?

Hope I made my astonishment a little bit clearer... :)

Namaste,

Soshin
 

rosada

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Hey! Maybe this could be our long awaited start to the Real IChing thread Trojan suggested awhile back! What do you think, Trojan?
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Soshin,

Can you share with us the ISBN number and title of the book? I imagine is in German, right? Sounds very interesting although I can't read it.

Thanks!

L
 

soshin

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Das Mawangdui-Yijing

Hi, Sparhawk,

The Dissertation of Dominique Hertzer was released in two volumes in 1996.

I.) Das Mawangdui Yijing. Text und Deutung. ISBN 3424013072
(The Mawangdui Yijing. Text and Interpretation)


and

II.) Das alte und das neue Yijing. Die Wandlungen des Buches der Wandlungen. ISBN 3424013293
(the old and the new Yijing. The changes of the Book of Changes)

Sadly, even in German it is no longer available, only as used books.

Namaste,

Soshin
 

dobro p

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I'd say the 12 as relating hexagram means something along the lines of: "You're going to get only so far with this line of enquiry."
 

heylise

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I have Hertzer, both, and I love them. She is extremely thorough without getting boring anywhere, on the contrary. I got loads of good information from those books.

Lise
 

Sparhawk

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Thanks Soshin!
 

rosada

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I see 12 as meaning The I Ching cannot manefest unless someone reads it. Or unless someone understands it.
 

peter

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Heh. I see a starship falling from the sky.

A good topic. I once asked about the meaning of the King Wen sequence, and got 22 static. Firstly I thought that is it wholly about society and ruling, but later recalled that Wilhelm has pointed on trigrams: Fire means Sun, Water (inner lower) - Moon, Thunder (inner upper) - moving stars and Mountain - stable stars.
 
B

bruce_g

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I see 12 as heaven over earth, and the separation between them; birth of duality. First it was hidden, then it appeared, and now it is tirelessly active.
 
B

bruce_g

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soshin said:
Well.

Understood it as "From the divine and formless, with its clarity and power (from the potential - Hexagram 1) into the Form (Hexagram 12)".

"Graphically" I see this answer as a beauty, because the first hexagram is unspoiled, the second one is Yang and Yin evenly distributed.

Saw it as a very valid answer. Authorship of the Yi - the numinous?

Hope I made my astonishment a little bit clearer... :)

Namaste,

Soshin

Hi Soshin,

Just realized, think we're saying the same thing a little differently.
 

yly2pg1

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bruce_g said:
I see 12 as heaven over earth, and the separation between them; birth of duality. First it was hidden, then it appeared, and now it is tirelessly active.

Heaven over earth - this is how this world is conditioned. The world is conditioned with the birth of yin/yang. IOW, there will be no conditioning without differentiation of the one - the Origin/ the Genesis ...

First it was hidden, then it appeared - it ranges from the start of a universe (the Big Bang) to an arising of a intangible thought etc etc. It is a WEB of connections, characterized by the fall and rise of one Yi's symbol (e.g. hexagram) to another. The exchange of entropies thru-out the WEB is tireless.

The Buddhas coin the WEB - the samsara.
 

yly2pg1

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peter said:
Heh. I see a starship falling from the sky.

A good topic. I once asked about the meaning of the King Wen sequence, and got 22 static. Firstly I thought that is it wholly about society and ruling, but later recalled that Wilhelm has pointed on trigrams: Fire means Sun, Water (inner lower) - Moon, Thunder (inner upper) - moving stars and Mountain - stable stars.

101001[22]
111111
---------XOR
010110[47]

King Wen was at the state of [47].
His sequence reflects His insight of life experience, transcending thru the state of [47], i.e. [22].
 

Sparhawk

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yly2pg1 said:
101001[22]
111111
---------XOR
010110[47]

King Wen was at the state of [47].
His sequence reflects His insight of life experience, transcending thru the state of [47], i.e. [22].

OK... Please explain why you XORed 22 with 1 to get 47. I want to follow your reasoning on this.

Is it because 22 was static and thus no changing lines means XORing with 1? (conversely, all lines changing would XOR with 2??)

L
 

yly2pg1

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sparhawk said:
OK... Please explain why you XORed 22 with 1 to get 47. I want to follow your reasoning on this.

why?
Answer: By the definition of XOR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_gate

Is it because 22 was static and thus no changing lines means XORing with 1? (conversely, all lines changing would XOR with 2??)

In my opinion, the "OPPOSING HEXAGRAM" of a hexagram (S. Karcher's Term) (e.g. 100001 <=> 011110) can be defined by XORing the hexagram thru the "filter" 111111.
 

stevev

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yly2pg1 said:
In my opinion, the "OPPOSING HEXAGRAM" of a hexagram (S. Karcher's Term) (e.g. 100001 <=> 011110) can be defined by XORing the hexagram thru the "filter" 111111.

Yes XORing any hexagram with the Creative ie. 111111, simply gives you the bitwise opposite hexagram, or "opposing hexagram" if you like. What I'd like to know is why people think XORing has some meaning other than just opposite.

I realise that in the King Wen sequence those hexagrams whose inverse is the same, have their opposite as their paired hexagram, and that in general you would expect the opposite hexagram to have an opposite meaning, although that really isn't the case, sometimes the inverse has a more "opposite" meaning.

Also why is XOR so frequently refered to when nobody seems interested in the other logic operators.

After looking at the XOR gate wiki page, it got me thinking it might be fun to run the hexagrams through a half-adder !
 
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lightofreason

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stevev said:
Yes XORing any hexagram with the Creative ie. 111111, simply gives you the bitwise opposite hexagram, or "opposing hexagram" if you like. What I'd like to know is why people think XORing has some meaning other than just opposite.
......Also why is XOR so frequently refered to when nobody seems interested in the other logic operators.

After looking at the XOR gate wiki page, it got me thinking it might be fun to run the hexagrams through a half-adder !

I wish you guys would seriously read the IC+ background on XORing before coming up with these misunderstandings of what is going on. SO please read ALL of the following and if you dont 'get it' then tell me and I will try and re-phrase. This is VERY important work regarding understanding meaning derivation in general and the I Ching in particular - a such we are covering aspects of the 21st centry AD form of I Ching.

ALL of this covers properties of self-referencing not identified elsewhere. The SPECTRUM of a hexagram is the ability to describe characteristics of a hexagram through analogy to all of the other hexagrams using XOR.

How is this possible? It comes from identifying how the brain processes information and that includes consideration of how it extracts 'parts' from a 'whole' - as shown in sensory paradox processsing (http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html)

What is ESSENTIAL to understand is the XOR aspect of paradox processing reflects the use of XOR by the brain and the need for self-referencing of a neuron to implement XOR in the brain. IOW our differentiating skills rely on self-referencing. Furthermore, XOR is essential for data encryption/compression and so packing all parts into a whole with as little redundancy as possible.

Given this understanding of using XOR to extract 'parts' from a 'whole', we find we can do this to the I Ching where each hexagram if treated as a whole - a complex pattern -
is described by all others - this is due to self-referencing of yin/yang in that to get the set of categories of hexagrams we apply recursion and build hexagrams from such where 6 loops of recursion will give us 64 hexagrams.

Thus the self-referencing extracts the 64 categories from the whole represented as yin/yang (or what that represents, the universe of discourse or T'ai Chi)

IF we then do the SAME THING to EACH HEXAGRAM rather than the general 'yin/yang' we will extract from each hexagram a sequence of 64 hexagrams. What are these? Given the patterns we see of extracting parts from a whole, and so 64 hexagrams from yin/yang, so this new pattern of 64 hexagrams from one hexagram reflects the same process in that we are using hexagrams to REPRESENT parts of the whole AT ALL SCALES.

What do these hexagrams represent? Each hexagram has its literal meaning - thus to focus on the original discovery of changing lines 1 and 6 - hexagram 27 has the GENERAL meaning covering issues of infrastructure, skeletal form, with a particular focus on quality control in being wary of what one takes in, the furnishings of the insides etc.

If we XOR hexagram 27 with any other hexagram we get a hexagram describing BY ANALOGY the infrastructure, the skeletal form, of THAT hexagram. For example, if we XOR 27 with hexagram 01 we get hex 28. What does 28 represent? IT represents a description of the infrastructure, the skeletal form, the 'mud' out of which 01 develops.

What IC+ shows is that if we XOR all hexagrams with any single hexagram we will get, by analogy, descriptions of the characteristics of each hexagram expressed THROUGH the single hexagram - in other words we get a parts list of a hexagram, its spectrum, described by analogy to all hexagrams - thus as 27-ness gives us a description of infrastructure so 24-ness gives us a description of what a hexagram begins with/keeps returning to.

For the particular of 01, what does XORing a hexagram with 01 tell us? it shows us the consequence of extreme pressure, intense energy expression in that, since all hexagram are in PAIRS, if we exaggerate one element of a pair to an extreme, all that is left to express is the other element.. and so XOR a hexagram with 01 and you get the hexagram's 'opposite' (the PAIR, as does yin/yang, represents the universe of discourse. Push one aspect and it become exhausted where all that is left to 'show' is the other aspect - it is from this dynamic that we get yin into yang, yang into yin)

The IC+ pages show all of the spectrums of each hexagram.

THe I Ching, being derived from self-referencing, can describe itself BUT IN GENERAL. LOCAL CONTEXT (personal experiences etc) then fills in the 'dots'. Thus we can use XOR to give us the GENERAL nature of a hexagram and from there fill in the dots of personal experiences etc.

This XOR-ing is not just a major finding of the IC, it is a major finding regarding self-referencing in general and from THAT a major finding regarding how we derive and communicate meaning - and so a focus on the development of languages.

MANY have applied XOR to I Ching hexagrams but have not asked the 'correct' question as in what does the result mean. The IDM work on how the brain derives meaning from self-referencing shows us how we derive meaning in general from dichotomies and so how it is done in particular for the I Ching.

Karcher will NOT aid you in understanding all of this. Nor will Marshall or Andreas or all other '10th century BC' thinkers.

Links:

For XOR and IC+ see
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

or the older

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/linemean.html

(...and the roots of the discovery going back to 1995 postings on my old ddiamond list about noticing a relationship of hexagrams when 'flipping' lines 1 and 6 - this later developed into understanding 27-ness .... http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/cardinal.html )


For a general coverage of the principle applied to information processing in general see:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/properties.html


Chris.
 

Sparhawk

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yly2pg1 said:
why?
Answer: By the definition of XOR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_gate

Behold!! Chris's evil twin! (and this one can insult me in Chinese, if so inclined...) :rofl:

Thank you. Now I understood. Perhaps if some of the cryptic nomenclature and rendering is dropped in favor of something like "creating an opposite hexagram" the obvious wouldn't stay hidden for the slow minded like myself. Coming from Chris is kind of charming and expected...

L
 

stevev

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Do you have an executive summary ?

lightofreason said:
I wish you guys would seriously read the IC+ background on XORing before coming up with these misunderstandings of what is going on. SO please read ALL of the following and if you dont 'get it' then tell me and I will try and re-phrase.
<snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip>

Yes I see the simple beginnings, XORing bits, and then all the complex arguments about patterns of behaviour, optical illusions and equations where A and ~A (~ = NOT) etc.

What I don't see is all the dots that join the simple to the complex !

What is the next simple fact after XORing bits. Just explain that one first, please ...

Regards

Steve
 
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lightofreason

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stevev said:
...What I don't see is all the dots that join the simple to the complex !

What is the next simple fact after XORing bits. Just explain that one first, please ...

Regards

Steve

Step out of the IC realm for a moment and 'get' this:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

IT covers basic categories derived from our brain oscillations as it gathers and categorises information.

The I Ching is a metaphor for this process as is Mathematics or personality typologies or categories of emotions etc in that they ALL stem from self-referencing of dichotomies. (the main IDM pages start with http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm001.html )

A cognitive analysis of the trigrams of the I Ching shows they are isomorphic to the generic representations derived from our brain oscillating as it differentiates (yang) and integrates (yin). We can represent this oscillation as self-referencing of the 0/1 dichotomy such that after three loops we have:

111 - wholeness through differentiating (heaven)
110 - static relationships (share space with another) through differentiating (lake)
101 - partness through differentiating (fire)
100 - dynamic relationships (share time with another) through differentiating (thunder)
011 - dynamic relationships (share time with another) through integrating (wind)
010 - partness through integrating (water)
001 - static relationships (share space with another) through integrating (mountain)
000 - wholeness through integrating (earth)

I simplify these into terms representing types of mixing of two elements:

Wholeness - BLENDing
Partness - BOUNDing
Static Relatedness (share space) - BONDing
Dynamic relatedness (share time) - BINDing

Thus issues of BONDING are covered in hexagrams containing lake/mountain trigrams as are issues of BOUNDING (a boundary and so distinction, part, etc) covered in hexagrams containing water/fire trigrams. BINDING is covered by hexagrams containing Wind/Thunder, and issues of BLENDING (becoming whole, un-whole etc) is covered in hexagrams containing earth/heaven trigrams.

AS such we have 64 hexagrams derived from 8 trigrams derived from a dichotomy of yin/yang where IT is isomorphic to the dichotomy of integrating/differentiating - the dichotomy our brain uses.

As such, the IC reflects strategies in thinking that lead to formation of categories. These categories are VAGUE in general. For example, fire over earth is expressed in vague form as "expansive bounding in a context of contractive blending". From this vague 'feeling' comes properties and methods associated with hexagram 35 where ANYTHING that fits the vague definition will fit into the meaning covered by 35.

SInce all categories have been extracted from the space of 'yin/yang' so we have mapped out the contents of yin/yang and so the 'universe of discourse'.

If we then put a HEXAGRAM as our 'universe of discourse' and apply recursion of yin/yang to it we get ITS content just as we have derived the content of 'yin/yang' from recursion. BUT the content of the hexagram is described by analogy to our 'language' which is in the form of hexagrams.

Further analysis of this method shows us that it is in fact XOR that gives us access to these details - XOR ALL hexagrams with some particular hexagram and we get descriptions of the content, the parts, of that particular hexagram by analogies.

Thus we can use XOR to extract details of each hexagram, we get the IC to describe itself but always IN GENERAL.

What is inherent in this is that the generic categories covered in this self-referencing are those we use AS A SPECIES to process and communicate information. Each discipline has the same generic structure and the discipline then develops its own forms of representations of such - and so the ease in making analogies/metaphors across disciplines, and so the ease in which we can mathematise disciplines (as we can 'see' the I Ching in all other disciplines or see them 'in' the I Ching)

What IDM does is map out the template we use as a species for the formation of analogy/metaphors - same basic categories, different labels.

LOCAL context then customises this language of the VAGUE and so the different forms of interpretations we find for a single hexagram etc.

In the past the meanings of the I Ching have come about in an ad hoc, context-sensitive, way. Through consideration of neurosciences etc and self-referencing we map out the full spectrum of the IC categories at the GENERAL level and from THAT are able to get the IC to describe itself. WE then add personal content to tie the hexagram down to some particular context.

Chris.
 
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pinefox

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"Where are you from?"

I believe this question is asking about the origins of the present day I Ching and thus the answer received is very specific.

Hex 1.1 is about the talents of a man as yet unknown to the World, he thinks, waits and concerns himself only with the puzzle at hand, the future oracle.

Hex 1.2 this man now shows himself in his quest for the oracle but he is still at a lowly level. This man is very serious in his studies and was destined to become famous and use his oracle to set order in the World.

Hex 1.3 he works day and night on his oracle and people take an interest in his work, from low to high.

Hex 12 standstill, stagnation all words indicating jail a place where heaven and earth are at odds with one another. A place where time does indeed standstill for the unlucky prisoner. A place where communication is cut off, and where a superior man is placed amongst evil people.

The I Ching as we know it today was produced by a man, King Wen, while he was holidaying in jail. An oracle invented by man for man.
 

frank_r

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An answer out of heaven

soshin said:
"Where are you from?"

The answer was interesting, to say the least:

1, 1/2/3 to 12

What do you think about this?

In the Fu Shi sequence there is heaven on top and earth on the bottum. The path between those two is expressed by hexagram 1.
So the connection between Heaven and Earth is expressed by 1.

So the Yi is saying that the Yi is something from Heaven brought to Earth.

I agree interesting answer.
 

Sparhawk

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From this equation, of course...

Pffft, where is from is easy :)D), if we get an answer like 1,1.2.3>12...

1,1.2.3 =

(inspiration from Heaven) /
(1/3 Earthy Reception) +
(1/6 Materialistic-Practical Mankind) +
(1/6 Light Espiritual Mankind) +
(1/3 Light Heaven oversight) ~
"To Avoid Stagnation"


;) :bows: :D

Namaste,

L

PS: Oops, I took it as 11 and not 12 in my original "equation". Edited that part...
 
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lightofreason

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sparhawk said:
Pffft, where is from is easy :)D), if we get an answer like 1,1.2.3>12

From a 'changing lines' perspective

01+12
with/from singlemindedness comes neutralising (we battle other perspectives to defend and so validate our own)

01 - with/from perseverence (heaven in lower) comes singlemindedness (heaven in upper)

12 with/from devotion to another/s (earth in lower) comes singlemindedness (heaven in upper)

From a spectrum perspective:

the X-ness of 01 identified is that of 11 so XOR 11 with 01 gives us 12. Mediation skills of 11 when expressed through 01 come out as competitive, neutralising, too intense to be considered 'mediating', and so lacking the content of the cooperative potentials contained in 11 as 11. ('harmonising/balancing is exaggerated to be seen more as neutralising, combating even though intended to be harmonising/balancing - you dont send a battle tank to 'talk things over' since it wont be perceived as such! - as mentioned before, in hexagram pairs, push one element to an extreme and out will pop the other since there is nothing left to express other than the other of the pair. Hex 01 is heavy duty exaggerations of energy, singlemindedness, competitive - represents a negotiator that gets off on the skill of negotiating regardless of the subject - as such the 'harmoniser' wins overall as an exercise in testing and so validating their skills and so beliefs, a theme mapped to 12!)

Chris.
 
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