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3 to 54 when being ignored

rosetyler

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Hello!

I'm looking for an answer from the Yi and the friends here because I feel I need to get beyond a conventional response to what has happened-though maybe I will need to rest with that eventually.

In short, K, who has had problems with depression in the past and a traumatic three years including divorce and a subsequent difficult relationship, asked me out last December. He seemed more stable than I'd known him, wasn't drinking and attributed some of his previous paranoias to diabetes with which he'd been diagnosed six months ago.

We saw each other for two months. He was a loving, expressive romantic partner and talked about a future together, though I still feared returning signs of depression and paranoia. Three weeks ago, after taking me to his old childhood haunts, he said he was going to start a new life in a year because he either had to die or be reborn at fifty (the age his father died at, I was aware of his death fixation but thought it had lessened). He said it was my choice to stay for the year, then said it was unfair to do that, and he wouldn't be able to leave if he was with me so we should separate. I was devastated and tried to change his mind, but he was so defensive, I felt I couldn't. A week later he contacted me to say he was drunk in a bar after a failed suicide attempt. I went, sat with him, made him eat, had him stay overnight and watched over him then drove him to a friend he was seeing the next day. He said he didn't want to let me go and could we "renegotiate our relationship" in a few days. We had text contact but then when I said I loved him in a text he sent a curt message in reply and the next morning said he couldn't see me as I was too intense and he needed to breathe. I replied saying he couldn't do a relationship and I couldn't deal with that.

I was left worrying that he's probably undiagnosed bipolar and diabetes is not his main problem. That he's pushing me away because of ambivalence about love and relating (and as a perverse test). That I want to save him but should save myself. He has children and friends (and ex girlfriends) around.

Anyway, my question actually relates to his blog. He put a poignant, honest entry about his overdose, the day after. (A call for support in a way). Then a few days ago I looked and he'd named a list of people he wanted to thank for giving time and care to support him. They included the friend in the bar with him the night he contacted me, the friend I drove him to the next day, his ex girlfriend...but not me. I'm one of the few people on the list who reads the blog. I feel he's publicly unthanked me. As if he's angry or rejected. As if I didn't exist or matter or care. I know it's not nice of him and I should keep away (as I am), but I had to ask why he had left me out of the thanks. The Yi says

3 with 2, 4, 5 changing to 54.

Hmmm.
Any thoughts?
 

RindaR

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Sounds to me like hex 3 may represent the behavioral patterns (and the spirit behind them) that he has been demonstrating.

Line 2: His inborn vitality is sometimes allowed to express itself, and is sometimes dimmed according to his mood or level of emotional stability, and he is growing in this area though it's a long process.

Line 4: ? may refer to "he said he was going to start a new life in a year because he either had to die or be reborn at fifty" in that he's been unswerving about this/sees it as inevitable.

Line 5: may indicate he's trying for goals that are too large - that he might do better to focus on smaller incremental steps and give himself credit for those so he's encouraged to continue.

54 may be saying that he is not centered in the present, that it may be difficult for him to accept the limits he faces in his life. He may be beset with "if onlys" when thinking about his past or about his future.

With all this drama, I'd go a different direction than bipolar though. Does he have a good counselor?

Rinda
 

willowfox

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"I had to ask why he had left me out of the thanks. The Yi says 3 with 2, 4, 5 changing to 54."

Hex 3.2 he has many, many problems, so he said nothing but don't worry, don't be upset, he is not a bad guy and he will come back to you when he feels the time is right, so hang in there, have patience and wait it out, don't rush him.

Hex 3.4 problems have given way to feelings of separation but I think it is up to you to take the first step here, so go see him because he certainly needs help and support at this time.

Hex 3.5 his situation is preventing him from expressing his true feelings and he probably thinks that certain people are messing with him so he is being cautious(fearful?), but if he tries to find a way out, taking it very slowly, then he will succeed.

Hex 54 suggests that he is taking a back seat here, trying to keep a low profile because he feels weak, vulnerable and in danger, he probably knows he has made mistakes in your relationship and this has caused misunderstandings for you. Therefore, he needs to fix his mind on you. Maybe he does feel that you are trying to control him, so he needs to learn to be more warmer, affectionate and tactful. He most likely feels that life is not being fair on him, so he hides his true feelings in turn perhaps making him feel bitter, and all these things are making your relationship with this man very difficult at the moment.
 

rosetyler

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Thank you Rinda and Willowfox for such insightful answers.

He's certainly beset with "if onlys" re his past and future.

Yes, I think he does feel very vulnerable currently and is reacting accordingly- though his behaviour is pretty cruel. It's of the "hit before I'm hit" variety I think.

He doesn't have a good counsellor Rinda. He was seeing a therapist last year then stopped because she was very new agey. He is in the process of changing doctors and now has a referral to a psychiatrist because of the overdose. The mental health system in the UK is often poor at the point of diagnosis and I hope he gets the help he needs.

I stopped short of asking whether our relationship will continue. I know the answer suggests it might. But whether in a romantic form or not, I don't know. It would seem complex and difficult and I can't save him, though I feel compelled to try (and part compelled to stay out of the way). Sadly.
 

dobro p

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How much of it is wanting to help him, and how much of it is wanting to help cuz you want to be with him romantically?
 

dobro p

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By the way, about this bit:

"I'm one of the few people on the list who reads the blog. I feel he's publicly unthanked me. As if he's angry or rejected. As if I didn't exist or matter or care. I know it's not nice of him and I should keep away (as I am), but I had to ask why he had left me out of the thanks."

In this bit, he reminds me of people who have an unconscious belief that they're unlovable or that they don't deserve love. They act in ways that keep people from loving them as a result. There are a lot of us around lol.
 

rosetyler

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Yes, agree Dobro. I did feel that any expression of love I've made lately was going to rebound on me because at times of depression/self loathing he just can't accept it.

It horribly angers and hurts me (I don't want to deny that, I used to deny my own feelings) but I think I understand it in him and it makes me feel even more sorry for him in a way.

Re the saving/romance- they're probably inextricable for me. I wish they weren't. Mentally I don't believe in "rescuing" people. Emotionally I seem to want to- and although I can feel it to a degree for others, not as much someone I'm romantically/sexually/spirtually attracted to.

I feel like I should stay away to avoid more hurt to myself. But I want to at least do something from a distance. Currently askign my psychologist friend to find details of a good local bipolar specialist so at least I can pass those onto him.
 

dobro p

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Thanks for the response, rosetyler. You're making sense, even before you consult the oracle. Three things...

* It's natural to want to help someone you love.

* If it angers you, look at the possibility that your vanity's acting up. ("How dare you reject me? I love you!")

* The reading.

"I had to ask why he had left me out of the thanks. The Yi says

3 with 2, 4, 5 changing to 54."

Hex 3's about difficult beginnings, and that's right where you are. The thing about the difficult beginnings in Hex 3 though is that it's a really good situation overall - things are difficult but it 'good difficult'. But you ought not to focus on outcomes or destinations right now - it's more important to get things established. This is echoed in the relating hex (54), which images a situation in which you're powerless and moving into a significantly new phase. The overall picture is one of 'difficult (but good) beginnings in which your hands are tied for the time being'. (Hex 54 uses marriage imagery as well, which is significant in your situation. I'm not saying you're going to marry the guy necessarily, but it's significant that the Yi has come up with committed relationship imagery to respond to your question.)

There are so many active lines in your draw that ordinarily I'd ignore them, but they seem to bear on your case, so I'll look at them.

3.2 talks about a temporary holdup and then you can unite with what you want to unite with. (Sound familiar?)

3.4 talks about being ready for a reliable alliance and how terribly auspicious it all is. (Sound nice?)

3.5 talks about incipient benefit to you in the situation, but how you need to exercise discrimination - don't be all gungho in what you do here. Gentle, easy.

So, near as I can tell, the Yi isn't telling you why he left you out of the thanks. (I mean, you know that already, right? The Yi doesn't tell you what you already know, although it's been known to draw your attention to it lol.) I think the Yi's telling you what the situation's about and how to deal with it. Which is what I talked about in 'The reading'.

Good luck with it. And travelling through time, space and everything.
 

Trojina

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dobro said:
Hex 3's about difficult beginnings, and that's right where you are. The thing about the difficult beginnings in Hex 3 though is that it's a really good situation overall - things are difficult but it 'good difficult'. But you ought not to focus on outcomes or destinations right now - it's more important to get things established. This is echoed in the relating hex (54), which images a situation in which you're powerless and moving into a significantly new phase. The overall picture is one of 'difficult (but good) beginnings in which your hands are tied for the time being'. (Hex 54 uses marriage imagery as well, which is significant in your situation. I'm not saying you're going to marry the guy necessarily, but it's significant that the Yi has come up with committed relationship imagery to respond to your question.)

.

I see all this so differently. I see 54 as about being secondary, as about being considered unimportant or as about being used for a purpose. In this instance I saw Rose's function as seeming to be some kind of audience for this guys drama. And I thought he left her out of his thanks because he knows she reads the blog and he wanted to create a bit more drama, and make her wonder a bit more. The lines of 3 I see as related to his flailing around for help and the various people he approached that night.
 

RindaR

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Rather than someone who specializes in Bipolar disorder, you might want to consider someone who knows how to help people with personality disorders. From the little you've said here, he seems to fit the "Go away, Don't leave me!" pattern.
 

rosetyler

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Hmm. Both interpretations ring bells with me. Many thanks for going further into this Dobro. Good difficult beginnings. Maybe, maybe. (A Dr Who quote that stuck in my head is; "the Doctor is worth the monsters". I am wondering it now- is K worth the monsters?...apologies to any U.S readers wondering what we're on about, though I know it was screened in the States too!)

Trojan- re audience. I think that's right too. He and I are both writer/performers. He's fascinated by writers who've written about their relationships. He and I have both written about our and other relationships in the past. As time ticks down (so he thinks) then he is aware that I might be part of his "immortality" if I write about him/us. I know that's narcissistic. But heck, mostly writers have to be to some extent.
 

rosetyler

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Ah, just seen your reply there Rinda.

Yes- narcissistic personality disorder possibly. Though from what I read the depressive phase of bipolar can look like that too.
 

RindaR

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mhmm... that's the right cluster...
 

dobro p

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If he's bipolar, there's no mistaking the upswing. He'll talk your ear off, free associating like crazy. I like talking (or rather listening) to upswinging bipolar people on the phone, cuz they're crazy fun to listen to and I know I can get away if I have to. They tell me that the upswing is really the worst and scariest part - way out of control. I know this bipolar woman who, when she's starting to move up, hangs around outside coffee shops waiting for a situation to manufacture itself so that she 'has to go in and have a coffee' (coffee's a no-no for her). Scary. When you're down, you don't feel like doing anything, so it's safer.
 

dobro p

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BTW, the Christopher Eccleston/Billie Piper Dr Who has been my first exposure to the saga. My British wife was raised on the whole thing right from the quarry in Rickmansworth of course. She finds the 2005 version suspiciously hi-tech lol. What I like about Rose is how the adventure's more important than the monsters. Or boys.
 

rosetyler

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Yes, Rinda- now reading Borderline (in that cluster)- sounds closer. The having no emotional skin thing. He does have empathy (sometimes) which has thrown me off NPD before. But borderline; the splitting, the alternate closeness/distance thing.

However, Dobro- yes, his talkativeness can be legendary and astounding. While "up" through January he would talk for hours and hours, even in the middle of the night when I was knackered and just wanted to sleep, not talk. However, when depressed his speech slowed noticeably...his whole demeanour slowed. Bursts of energy, ideas, writing, followed by flatness and disconnection, ideas not followed through.

Oh eck. I don't know. I know I can't diagnose. I wish I had much faith his G.P can or will either.
 

RindaR

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Could be both or neither... It does sound like a good counselor might help.

Best wishes with this, remember to put on your own oxygen mask first, should there be a need for one.
 

dobro p

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rinda said:
Best wishes with this, remember to put on your own oxygen mask first, should there be a need for one.

Bingo. I understand wanting to help someone you love, but the more I look into this area of human existence, the more I'm convinced that you *can't* help anybody much. Except maybe to make them lunch or lend them a fiver. But you can't help somebody with their own mind and personality. Not really.

Or rather, you can help people with their own demons, but you have to have gone so deeply into yourself and know yourself so well and been through the territory enough times yourself so that you're speaking to them and listening to them with that double-pointed attention that knows that what they're going through, that's just you with a different face. Not many people are there. I'm not. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet.
 

rosetyler

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Many many thanks Rinda.
The more I'm reading about Borderline (which can be co morbid with bipolar) the more I recognise him.
Very intense fear of abandonment.
Hates being alone.
Low stress tolerance.
Emotions near the surface
Occasional paramoia
Fluctuating sense of self/self image, constantly changing goals and values.

He said on the day he finished with me three weeks ago that he thought I preferred him wounded and unavailable. That he thought I'd been happier not with him
(I had in a way, because I didn't find him a secure person to be with...but I recognised sort of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder type traits in him and thought me being constant would help. I probably wasn't good at being constant because I was so insecure. Vicious circle.).

Due to his fear of being alone he's probably already back with his ex (v destructive) or someone else now.
 
J

jesed

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Hi rosetyler

I had do a lot of meditation before make my mind to write. I hope the comment could be of any use.

Bad news. He probably will fulfill his own prophecy and die at the same age than his father.

Please read the following article, spetially the chapter about "Magical belief systems and their consequences"
http://www.hellinger.com/international/english/hellinger_lectures_articles/how_love_works.shtml)

Good news. It still can be solved now.

I think that hellinger's aproach can do a lot for bringing him back to life and love. In tha page, you can search for trainned people at UK

I can't express well in words and in english how touched I am with your situation. My prayers and best wishes for you
 

rosetyler

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Thanks again Dobro.

And thank you Jesed. Astoundingly interesting stuff on the Hellinger pages.

I'm very interested in person centred/phenomenological therapies but had never heard of family constellation work. Fascinating stuff.

I write alot about, and am interested in projective identification and how/what people sacrifice within families (because of my own background, long story). I could see something of the sort was happening with K, but this helps confirm it.

I too have felt he is doomed by his own prophecy/fixation. But to help truly, people might have to provide optimism. I didn't think I could til now (a bit at least).

The thing to avoid would be making myself a sacrifice too. I know I have that urge in me. Battling strongly with an urge to life and my own entitlement to selfhood.

Complex things- I hope I somehow get the chance to reconnect with K. I don't feel I should contact him at this point though.
 
J

jesed

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Hi

back to Yijing aproach ;)

I would suggest you following this dialogue, in this order:

a) general diagnosis of K's emotional time
b) deeper cause of K's emotional situation
c) general diagnosis of the relation between K and I
d) what is the best thing for me to do related K's emotional situation?

This could (hopefully) provide you with more clarity to act, (even help him if you can) but don't sacrifice yourself in the attempt.

Best wishes
 
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RindaR

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Thank you Jesed, for the link to the Hellinger stuff - wow!

Rinda
 

rosetyler

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Many thanks for the suggested questions Jesed.
After a couple of days reading about Borderline Personality Disorder and contemplating attachment issues, abandonment issues (mine and his), and bi polar, I've reached some conclusions. Understanding his overpowering, compulsive fear of abandonment is crucial to accepting him I think. But he needs to be seeing a doctor and a psychiatrist for a diagnosis. I now feel that I could try and cope with his issues though and want our relationship to continue. I've decided instead to ask your suggested relationship diagnosis questions therefore;

General diagnosis of our relationship;

20, 4,5,6 changing to 16

K's current position within it

16

Mine within it; 51 1,2,4 to 7

What I should do re our relationship?

11,3 to 19.

Although I'm saying in a blase way that I want our relationship to continue, I'm still currently so wounded (I never knew heartache was a physical thing!) after the last few turbulent weeks that I feel like I can't face contacting him at the moment and he hasn't contacted me. Technically there isn't a relationship to diagnose (who am I kidding?). I feel like dust is settling though. I wonder if I'm addicted to some of the highs and lows he could/will provide. I know addiction can be a (hard but valid) path to positive change. However- the avoidant part of me is currently feeling safer to think about him and worry about him from a very safe distance. For someone like him who can't bear to be alone that may be just too far away...
 
J

jesed

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rosetyler said:
General diagnosis of our relationship;

20, 4,5,6 changing to 16

K's current position within it

16

Mine within it; 51 1,2,4 to 7

What I should do re our relationship?

11,3 to 19.

wow.. that's deep...
let me meditate a little more before I comment anything.
 

dobro p

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rosetyler said:
General diagnosis of our relationship;

20, 4,5,6 changing to 16

You're observing it and, believe and/or like it or not, getting ready. For Round 2, I imagine.

rosetyler said:
K's current position within it

16

K's getting ready too.

rosetyler said:
Mine within it; 51 1,2,4 to 7

You've received a shock in this whole thing, but the shock in the Yi is a positive stirring up rather than a crushing blow. You'll bounce back from it with a lot of force. (Notice the force referred to in the text of Hex 16 as well? I predict there's going to be a *lot* of energy in your interaction with K when you get together again.)

rosetyler said:
What I should do re our relationship?

11,3 to 19.

Now you're talking. As lines go, 11.3 is a bit of a weirdo, but it seems to be saying something like 'It’s necessary to go through some difficulty before you get back to where you want to be - you’re blessed with the truth now.'

rosetyler said:
I wonder if I'm addicted to some of the highs and lows he could/will provide.

I'm wondering the same. The mate or partner you're drawn to says a lot about you and your own hidden assumptions, agendas, desires, reflexes and default settings. But if there's a draw (and there must be a draw in your case in a situation like this), it's a huge opportunity to see yourself more clearly if only you can keep your eyes open through the shock and the hurt. My wife is completely unlike me; everybody knows that and comments on it. I'm a motormouth; she's reticent. I'm vulgar; she's polite. I'm noisy; she's quiet. She's thoughtful and tactful; I'm...(fill in the blank - you know the answer). When we got married, it seemed to be a case of 'each of them supplies what the other one lacks'. After we'd been married for 15 years, I started to see, way deeper down, the similarities between us. The common ground is huge. That's why we get on so well. Not exactly peas in a pod sort of thing, but definitely issued from the same factory. It was the similarities that made us comfortable with each other, not the differences. The differences were just window dressing. I'm not saying there's a huge common ground between you and K, but there must be some deep stuff going on to provoke stuff in you that would have others heading for the exits. I'm hoping it's more than addiction to the excitement of the emotional rocket ride.
 

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"General diagnosis of our relationship; 20, 4,5,6 changing to 16"

It says that you should take a good look at the situation and your place in it and that he should take a look at his life and mistakes and wake up and deal with them. Hex 16 says that you both need help here to get things moving.

"K's current position within it 16"

K needs help.

"Mine within it; 51 1,2,4 to 7"

You feel fearful and at a disadvantage but it is only temporary, perhaps you feel that you have lost him, just wait it out until he returns to you, the situation makes you feel like you are stuck in a rut but don't give up, do something.

Hex 7 calls for discipline and leadership, perseverance in the face of difficulty.
 

rosetyler

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Thank you both for taking the time to answer.

Willowfox- thanks for that. Yes, I wonder what form of help we'll get is. I hope that he is seeing a psychiatrist and accepting help from family and friends. Mine is partly among friends, here, and I'm definitely looking very closely at my own abandonment and loss issues. What have I rejected in the past before it rejected me? Even outside the emotional situation there's currently for example a theatre director shown an interest in talking to me about my work. I'm dragging my heels. Why? That fear of abandonment lurking I think. I need to stay conscious about it and work out what I really want.

Dobro- I so appreciate your honesty, openness and directness.
51's lines particularly made me heartened that this process is about growth not regression.
Interesting about differences revealing common ground.
Myself and K have always been aware of major similarities between us- before I was with him I used to analyse him all the time, but realised I was really learning about myself. Now- I just don't want to risk losing myself! I love him and am concerned about him, but our relationship has the power to break me open in ways that are both exciting and terrifying. At the moment I feel and fear that I've lost him. I know he may be back. I hope if he is, then whatever happens is still about growth and not clinging or self annihilation.
 

dobro p

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Yeah, sure thing. My concern for you in this is also my concern for me in my own life - how much time it's going to take for the lights to come on. (My understanding is that if I don't turn the lights on, they're not going to come on by themselves.) I can either work to turn the lights on now, paying attention to what's happening and staying aware. Or I can go on automatic pilot and continue to rely on my default settings and mechanical momentum to carry me through.

So if you've got a taste for the excitement and thrills that relating to him offers, that's a draw. But even that will get to be 'same old same old' eventually, and the issues will still be waiting for you. That's the nicest thing about issues and personality glitches - they stay installed and operative and waiting for us until we choose to familiarize ourselves with them and let go of them. You gotta wanna do it though.

Good luck. Me too lol.
 

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