coin values

gregcat · Mar 20, 2007

Hi, this question is so basic I'm embarrassed, but I'm a little hung up on it. When I first started working with the Ching years ago, I assigned the value of 2 to heads, and 3 to tails (I used and still used pennies). This was based on how I understood the directions in Wilhelm, and also the literal directions in R. L. Wing's I Ching Workbook. Now that I've come back to the Ching years later, I'm seeing that most people suggest the opposite values for coins. Oddly, I'm kind of hung up on which way to go now--I'm superstitious that if I use the wrong values I'll get the wrong reading, and want to start using the heads=3 (and it makes sense that Heads would be Yang) but a part of me is so accustomed to heads = 2 that I kind of hit a psychological bump in the road every time I throw. Probably indicates some basic issues with "confusion". I've also been experimenting with the marble technique, and I discussed this with Hilary a while back, but I seem to get far fewer readings with moving lines using marbles--and I want to do this "right"! I even threw a Ching asking for guidance, but couldn't sort out the response. I have to check back with my journal at home (I'm at the office) to see which hexagrams I drew.

Just wondering if anybody has any thoughts about this. I'm so muddled about it I can barely proceed. Dr. Ron Masa might tell me I'm dealing with resistance, I dunno.

Chad

stevev · Mar 20, 2007

Yes we've been through this many times

and I think the general consensus is that you should make a choice and stick too it. I don’t know what sort of coins you’ve got but in Oz all of our coins have the Queen’s head on the back and to my way of thinking the back corresponds with Yin. But remember I’m from the southern hemisphere and birds don’t fly south for winter here, plus I might be dyslexic, on the other hand I could just be wrong, or left.

Sparhawk · Mar 20, 2007

Hi Chad,

I second Steve's opinion: just assign the numbers to the sides of the coins you like for each and stick to that. In the case of Chinese coins, for example, if you use Han or T'ang coins, they have a "flat" side and a the other has characters. Personally, I assign 3 to the 'flat' side, as the "formless" Heaven, and 2 to the other, as "form" full Earth.

As for the marbles method, you ARE supposed to receive less moving lines. The odds for receiving moving lines with the marbles is the same as using yarrow stalks.

Cheers,

Luis

bradford · Mar 21, 2007

I got fed up with this question and decided to settle it by going through all of my Yijing books (nearly 200) and taking a vote. It didn't help, whether they were junk books or good ones, Chinese authors or Westerners. It came out about 50-50 for heads as two or three.
You have good advice - make a choice and stick with it. The same went for Chinese coins.

RindaR · Mar 21, 2007

...how apropos!

hilary · Mar 21, 2007

Hey, Luis - you get the same proportion of moving lines overall with marbles/yarrow as with coins. The difference is you get more yang lines moving, and fewer yin. But this is just statistics, and doesn't account for what the oracle may get up to.

(I love the reading in the 'I Ching manual' Brad posted links to recently, where the author asked what difference it made to consult with yarrow rather than coins, and received 57. Wood, doubled.

)

Sparhawk · Mar 22, 2007

hilary said:
Hey, Luis - you get the same proportion of moving lines overall with marbles/yarrow as with coins. The difference is you get more yang lines moving, and fewer yin. But this is just statistics, and doesn't account for what the oracle may get up to.

I don't think you do. http://www.yarrowstalk.com/yarrow/notes/

But, in all fairness and OTOH, http://www.tryskelion.com/ichstick.htm

I'm not a mathematician but experience tells me that I obtain more moving lines using coins than with yarrow and thus my opinion. The bias is towards Yang, yes, with the Yarrow/Marbles. BTW, yarrow is my preferred method.

L

hilary · Mar 22, 2007

From Ralph Abraham:

...the probabilities of the hyperlines [6, 7, 8, 9] for coins is (resp.) [2,6,6,2] ... But for yarrowstalks, the hyperline probabilities are [1,5,7,3]...

(I put the same numbers in a chart, here.)

So the probabilities of moving lines with coins are 2 in 16 (2+6+6+2) for a 6, and 2 in 16 for a 9. And the probabilities for moving lines with yarrow are 1 in 16 for a 6, 3 in 16 for a 9. So the probability of any given line moving, with coins, is 2+2 out of 16. And the probability of any given line moving with yarrow or marbles is 1+3 out of 16. It looks kind of similar to me.

RindaR · Mar 22, 2007

Glad to see that Clarity's reading site uses the probabilities for yarrow.

As someone with ADHD, I really appreciate the quick way. Although I seem to be able to go deep and touch the source with my mind, if I have to try to stay there very long, I get distracted.

Rinda, who nevertheless appreciates ritual....

Sparhawk · Mar 22, 2007

hilary said:
So the probabilities of moving lines with coins are 2 in 16 (2+6+6+2) for a 6, and 2 in 16 for a 9. And the probabilities for moving lines with yarrow are 1 in 16 for a 6, 3 in 16 for a 9. So the probability of any given line moving, with coins, is 2+2 out of 16. And the probability of any given line moving with yarrow or marbles is 1+3 out of 16. It looks kind of similar to me.

Well, I must agree with cold and hard mathematical facts. However, as I said above, in my personal experience, I obtain far more moving lines, in general, using coins as opposed to yarrow. I don't know; perhaps is only me...

L

RindaR · Mar 22, 2007

Or perhaps it is only Yi...

Sparhawk · Mar 22, 2007

rinda said:
Or perhaps it is only Yi...

Well, the Yi and I are odd fellows, at its best. Wouldn't be surprised the combination of both of us gives askew results.

L

RindaR · Mar 22, 2007

my motto is "ain't no such thing as normal."

R

frank_r · Mar 23, 2007

Probabilities???

hilary said:
From Ralph Abraham:

(I put the same numbers in a chart, here.)

So the probabilities of moving lines with coins are 2 in 16 (2+6+6+2) for a 6, and 2 in 16 for a 9. And the probabilities for moving lines with yarrow are 1 in 16 for a 6, 3 in 16 for a 9. So the probability of any given line moving, with coins, is 2+2 out of 16. And the probability of any given line moving with yarrow or marbles is 1+3 out of 16. It looks kind of similar to me.

There was a discussion about the probabilities of the coins and the yarrow stick/ marbles method. Since years I use the marbles, I have 16 marbles and 4 colours in the amount of 1-3-5-7 as Hilary already mentioned. But now I'm confused because somebody is telling that the probabilties of the yarrow stick/marbles and the coins are equel.
He made this clear with this mathematical proof.
But whats wrong and what is right? I'm not smart enough to understand what is correct.
Here is the proof in Dutch but the numbers speak for themselves I think.
In red he writes with the first one; A classical think and counting error.

...life can be translucent

coin values

gregcat

visitor

stevev

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

bradford

(deceased)

RindaR

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hilary

Administrator

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

hilary

Administrator

RindaR

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

RindaR

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

RindaR

visitor

frank_r

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