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Why Pick on the Zhou?

midaughter

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--- likedrums <likedrums@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I THINK THE SOLUTION TO THAT QUESTION,ALTHOUGH
> INTERESTING,ADDS
> NOTHING TO THE STUDY AND INTERPRETATION OF THE
> BOOK.WE KNOW THAT IT WAS
> COMMON FOR AN EMPEROR TO CLAIM AUTHORSHIP OF MANY
> BOOKS AND ALSO
> INVENTIONS.DID THE YELLOW EMPEROR REALLY WRITE THE
> BOOK OF MEDICINE? I
> DO NOT KNOW OR CARE TO KNOW BECAUSE THE PROOF WILL
> BE LOST IN
> HISTORY.THE ONLY THING LEFT TO US TO REALLY CARE IS
> THE BOOK AND WHAT
> IT GIVES US EVEN TODAY.DID LAO TZU WRITE THE TAO TE
> CHING?DID CONFUCIUS
> READ THE I CHING?I THINK WE ARE TOO ARROGANT TO ASK
> THOSE QUESTIONS AND
> THAT WE EMBARK ON A QUEST THAT WILL NEVER END.WHAT
> IS NEXT?WHERE WAS HE
> BORN?WHO WERE THEIR PARENTS?DID HE COPYRIGHT THE
> BOOK?IS THERE PROOF OF
> IT?IN THE SEARCH FOR THE TREE WE LOOSE SIGHT OF THE
> FOREST RIGHT IN
> FRONT OF US.
> FAL
Thanks for your interest. It was really just a rhetorical question aimed at newbies more than anything. That Duke of Zhou and King Wen wrote the Yi has just been the traditional idea ever since Confucius said it as a way of creating a certain historical, moral reason for making the book one of the 4 classics. Actually I Ching research is way beyond that now. The question really where did the myriad early I Chings come from (Mawangdui, FuYang, and Guizangs (2) of them. Where did book III, the Commentaries in WB and the WB great treatise originate? In the former Great Commentary, the best guess so far is that it was written by a contemporary of Chaung Tzu, around 300 BC. In the latter Zhouyi the leading expert, Shaunnesy maintains it is of Late Western Zhou era but I see several holes in the reasoning, for example this late Zhouyi may just be a finished edition of earlier readings. It certainly looks as though the Battle of Mu and the writings in the Yi around that in Hexagrams 55 and 7 are probably contemporaneous with the battle in 1045 BC because we can date the eclipse of the sun to that date and this is spoken of in Hexagram 55. So I just debunk the Zhou myths because they are so widely held among those who are just learning the Yi.

I myself feel that this discussion brings an air of realism to the exalted position the Zhouyi has enjoyed due to the Confucian School. I understand that they were absolutely desperate (mainly the Sung City-State intelligentsia) to re-establish moral order after the country was effectively destroyed during the Warring States era.)

What is going on here is the modernist approach to the Yi and placing historical and political events within the context of certain hexagrams and line statement.

On the other hand, my basic interest in the Yi is one of divination and esoteric spiritual layers of meaning. Sometimes we have to start with history. As a teacher of the Sung Li or pattern method, I rely mainly on line position and energy flow through the hexagramand inner and outer trigrams. I do not emphasize line statements unless they have proven themselves to me and this is probably 50% of the time.

Certain hexagrams and line statements which have a strong historical basis are often difficult to translate into a modern divination and an historical analysis is sometimes useful. However, much to my surprise, when divining about the war in Iraq I received lines of The Army, indicating a revolt of our army was brewing within. So true and I was truly amazed as one rarely receives this hexagram.

On a more personal note, I believe the Yi was created to help everyone obtain Tao and is primarily an oracle. Under certain conditions a diviner who understands the divination can through further divination change misfortune to good fortune. This is called by th Great Treatise as 'Aiding the Gods in governing the world." So I continue to study, never-ending, how-wonderful!:bows:




>
 

midaughter

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Bernie goes to the Battle of Muye

Shaunessy seems to stick to the idea that the Zhouyi is a product of the late Western Zhou although his reasoning seems to be now based on language structure rather than bronze inscriptions that he says first use the term 'the son of heaven' Sarah Allan agrees that Shaunnesy's analysis is weak in this area , 'Sources of Western Zhou History,' 1991. (Source: Marshall) Of course, Zhouyi being completed by the time of the Western Zhou, c. 800 BC says nothing, according to Marshall, about the individual fragments that make up the book. Were this not so, Marshall would have no basis for his theories that Hexagram 55 with the eclipse he says occurred during the Battle of Mu which occurred over 200 years later could not be said to be in the Zhouyi at all. Of course, King Wen was dead at that time(whether 9, 2, or immediately before the battle) so absolutely could have had no input into the Hexagram, other than being carted around the battle field as a dessicated corpse (as Marshall maintains rather reverentially. because the time for mourning was not yet passed and thinks Wen died just before the battle in 1045 BC.
It was traditional to carry a wooden funeral tablet of a fallen comrade into battle and I think this makes more sense than "Weekend at Bernie's." I find his reasoning weak as he bases the idea on the line statement 'there is no skin on his thighs and walking comes hard' an allusion to another personage, early Yu whose blood was gone from his body as he had offered himself to the gods. The best argument for all of this, however, is that Marshall says David Hawkes in an unpublished work, had the Bernie idea originally. Anyway, I always like it when someone pushes the envelope a bit and this corpse in the wagon idea definitiely is a visual.
 

lienshan

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Remember the Duke of Zhou spent his young adulthood in the shang Court . I think we can reasonably assume he was studying all facets of the Yi.. he may have had written some line statements and/or copied them down to take with him back to his home.
The problem with the theory of Marshall is, that most up-to-date scholars date the battle of Mueh 1045 BC, but I like his solar eclipse reading of hexagram 55, so I have made this little reseach:

When king Wu Wang won the battle of Mueh in 1045 BC, the Duke of Zhou received the state of Lu as fiefdom, but gave it to his eldest son. He must have been at least 20 years old and this tells, that the Duke of Zhou was in his fourties in 1045 BC. He spent his young adulthood in the shang Court, according to your own research, and was in the capitol Anyang, when the solar eclipse occurred on June 20, 1070 BCE (hexagram 55), according to the research of Marshall.

Wu died, and was succeeded by his son, a boy only thirteen years old.
The Duke of Zhou was the fourth (of ten) son of king Wen.

BOOK VI. THE METAL-BOUND COFFER:

Two years after the conquest of Shang, the king fell ill, and was quite disconsolate. The two (other great) dukes said, "Let us reverently consult the tortoise-shell about the king;" but the duke of Kau said, "You must not so distress our former kings." He then took the business on himself ...
(Afterwards), upon the death of king Wu, (the duke's) elder brother, he of Kwan, and his younger brothers, spread a baseless report through the kingdom, to the effect that the duke would do no good to the (king's) young son. On this the duke said to the two (other great) dukes, "If I do not take the law (to these men), I shall not be able to make my report to the former kings." He resided (accordingly) in the east for two years, when the criminals were taken (and brought to justice).

James Legge comments:
The jealousy of his elder brother Hsien, "lord of Kwan," and two younger brothers, was excited, and they spread the rumour which is referred to, and entered into a conspiracy with the son of the tyrant of Shang, to overthrow the new dynasty. Two years were spent in military operations against the revolters.

My comments:
Was it a revolt? The Duke of Zhou was the fourth son of Wen and had no legal rights to rule?

One of the younger brothers was killed; hexagram 62.5 The prince shoots and hits him who is in the cave.

The remnants of the Shangs were removed to the fiefdom of Wey and the Duke of Zhou gave it to his younger brother Feng under the title Kang Shu, the ninth son of king Wen and known as prince Kang and related to hexagram 35.

All the historical content of the Yi happend either before or during the lifetime of the Duke of Zhou and he was deeply impressed watching the solar eclipse in Anyang on June 20 1070 BC, related to hexagram 55.
 

midaughter

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Duke of Zhou is Zhou Gong is Dan or Tan

confusing?? of course I'm going to call him Dan for now. Dan spent his young adulthood at the Shang Court. He was present with King Wen during the campaigns insofar as is known. After the battle of Mu was won he immediately became one of the chief advisers to the king

King Wu, the Zhou successor to KIng Wen appointed Dan as an adviser to him. But within 2 years King Wu dies and Dan usurps the throne as a regent saying King Cheng is too young to rule. There was rebellion and Dan was able to ally himself with the King Cheng from whom he had attempted take the throne. State craft at its finest is used defeat the other brothers and the remaining Shang allies. Dan has a prominent rule in the defeat of the Shang participated in the war itself at the battle of Muye 1045 BC although not much is said of his role in historical sources other than implications in the Zhouyi.

Dan was part of the many legions sent to consolidate Zhou rule throughout the region. Most important was the eastern capital because the Tongguan Pass blocks the Wei River, and it was absolutely necessary for this area to be garrisoned to protect the Zhou territories. So his attempted coup did not give him the throne he sought but he was allowed to retire in Louyang after the rebellion was put down. If Dan saw an eclipse, he was at Muye not among the yin.

Dan would be forced to retire and remained in the Zhou eastern capital, present day Louyang. Not much else is said about him until he lionized by Confucius around 300 years later.

Source: The Cambridge History of Ancient China to 221 BC, 1999. ISBN-521-4730-7
 

midaughter

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and was in the capitol Anyang, when the solar eclipse occurred on June 20, 1070 BCE (hexagram 55), according to the research of Marshall.

I missed this part in Marshall, where is it?
 

lienshan

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I missed this part in Marshall, where is it?
The source of Marshall is probably "Atlas of historical eclipse maps", where all total and annual solar eclipses (862 events) from 1500 BC to 1900 AD are plotted on computer-drawn outline maps of East Asia.

Marshall says, that the eclipse occurred during the Battle of Muye. This is according to the scholars impossible, because the battle of Muye was in 1045 BC. But it is possible, that the Duke of Zhou was eyewithness to the 1070 BC solar eclipse. The Shang capitol is located about 2 km northwest to modern Anyang City. It spreads to both banks of the Henghe River with the present village of Xiaotun at their center and Muye is only 30 to 35 km away from Anyang.

When a total eclipse occurs very close to perigee, the track can be over 250 km wide and moves from west to east.

Six in the second place means:
The curtain is of such fullness
That the polestars can be seen at noon.
Through going one meets with mistrust and hate.
If one rouses him through truth,
Good fortune comes.

Nine in the third place means:
The underbrush is of such abundance
That the small stars can be seen at noon.
He breaks his right arm. No blame.

Nine in the fourth place means:
The curtain is of such fullness
That the polestars can be seen at noon.
He meets his ruler, who is of like kind.
Good fortune.

Three of the lines is defenitely about a total solar eclipse, but the total solar eclipse would by logic have been shown in the name of the hexagram, if it had occured during the battle of Muye. It did occur June 20 1070 BC in the location of Muye according to the research of Marshall, but not during the battle.

"He meets his ruler, who is of like kind." (King Wen arrived at Anyang in 1068 BC)

http://www.stanford.edu/~dnivison/8conquest1.html

According to the link: "The next year was 1068, when Di Xin's second calendar begins, and there must have been at that time a great assembly of lords in the Shang caapital, from which Wen Wang would not dare to stay away. In any case it is stated in the Annals (which is quite silent about a calendar or an assembly) that in this year (that is, two years after the assembly in Zhou) Wen Wang was imprisoned in You Li, where he remained for the next seven years."
 
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midaughter

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No, why do you say Dan was at Anyang and not in the field with the Zhou armies? For quite some time leading up to the final battle at Shepherd's Crossing, Muye, the Zhou army was on a campaign across the countryside ever encroaching and c oming closer to the Shang. Why would Dan (the Duke of Zhou) not be with the army of the Zhou no matter when the eclipse occurred?
 

midaughter

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1068 BC you say is when King Wen was imprisoned not Dan, that' s 28 years before the battle, even plus or minus a few years, I don't get it. You are saying King Wen saw the eclipse while at the shang court, before the Zhou and Shang war and I assume you then say Marshall's dating of the eclipse is off, you say 1070BC and M says 1040BC? So by this reasoning Dan could have been at the Shang Court. There is no authority for this. I suppose a lot of people saw the eclipse wherever they happened to be.
 

midaughter

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I think you need to cut out the cut and paste stuff and write your points succinctly. I know about King Wen being imprisoned. I know Hexagram 55. I hardly see any relation to any point you are making to these pasted words. I mean, am I to infer that Hexagram 55 relates to en eclipse, and if so, what significance does it have being in the Zhouyi? If it has no significance, say so. If it does, what is it? If its just an eclipse why place it in the Zhouyi at all? We know that major upheavals of floods throughout China's history and the world's largest earthquake happened during the Han due south of the Middle Kingdom in Indonesia, pre krakatao are these events implied in placed in the Yi, perhaps, but what significance to the history of the times in China did it have, if any?
 

lienshan

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If its just an eclipse why place it in the Zhouyi at all?
In his young adolthood the Duke of Zhou was sent to Anyang in late 1070's BC to learn how to read, write and divine. He was first class educated at the Shang court. The situation described in "the Metal-Bound Coffer" tells, that he was the only son of the king Wen, that mastered the tortoise divination method.

His teachers, the diviners of the Chang court, predicted a total solar eclipse June 20 1070 BC. The Duke of Zhou must have sent a message about the coming event to his father, because that's the reason why king Wen held at great assembly of local Lords in 1970 BC. We actually now know the exact date of this assembly, June 20, and the place must have been the Zhou capitol Feng.

Feng is located so much to the south of the west-east path of the total solar eclipse, that it seen from Feng was only a partial solar eclipse, but it must have looked like magic to the assembled Lords, that king Wen was able to predict the solar eclipse. Hexagram 55 is about this important assembly, but the author was not present. He was in Anyang and watched the total solar eclipse as described in three of the hexagram 55 lines.

All famous scholars were a few years ago involved in a big "dating ancient China" project, but failed. Maybe we, the Yi diviners, can do better? Here are some quotations from the beginning of their project:

Edward Shaughnessy:

"Getting the dates right is important. It really makes a difference in Western Zhou. Archaeology requires committees; history is done by crazy individuals."

Sarah Allan:

"As to eclipse records, it is of some interest that there are very few eclipse records for an unimportant political year in China."

D.N. Keightley:

"But the eclipse bones (assuming AMS testing) are not in the PRC but in Taiwan."

http://66.1.130.206/Docs/SandaiProject/1998AAS.htm

I think, that it might be possible to find the year of the Mueh Battle by informations in some of the Yi lines? That's why I theorize, that the Duke of Zhou is in fact the author of Zhouyi, because this makes it possible to compare the various Yi texts with other texts and maybe this way reconstruct his biography? His son was e.g. old enough to become Duke of Lu, but the son of Wu was only thirteen? And the prince of Kang, the 9th son of king Wen, was so much younger than the Duke of Zhou, that he was born after king Wen was released from prison in 1062BC. I haven't seen the final words of the disagreeing scholars, but I think that they missed to look for informations in the Yi?
 

midaughter

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[FONT=&quot]Hexagram 55: The Eclipse of King Wen, his life, his influence and power but through divination he manages to win the day after his death. Tora! Tora! Tora!


Overall in Hexagram 55 an empty house is a bad omen and so are most celestial events. However, the augury here for the Zhou assembled presumably at the town of Feng, are asking about the military campaign, in full swing btw across southern Shamxi and defeating the state of Li. Marshall dates this 1053 BC. Then the Zhou army (King Wen having given himself the name of King Chang), then defeated the state of Yu on the Qin River. This is southeast of Shangxi's major river tributary into the Yellow River. This is real close now to attacking the Shang.

Are you saying at this point King Wen (Chang) called a meeting because he knew the eclipse would happen soon? Assuming arguendo that this would have happened, why do we assume absolutely out of almost nowhere that Wen wants to discuss that the Mandate has passed to the Zhou? Wen is going to die, there is going to be a civil war, and the claim to the Zhou kingship will be in doubt and King Wen wants to make sure that his chosen heir does indeed take the throne and when the Zhou armies (at least 6 of them) see the eclipse he will be dead and they will be marching to the great battle of Muye. Certainly he want to prepare them psychologically for this event. Without that they could break and run in fright. King We leads the armies at this time; Wen must have certainly briefed him. There were probably many more divinations concerning tactics and the possibility of attack or retreat. The augury apparently said ‘attack.’ So King Wen is giving his final orders too-“I won’t be there, the eclipse shows the Shang have lost the mandate, attack!, attack!, attack! and my chosen successor, Cheng, will take the throne.” Good tactics by King Wen.

This analysis seems just as plausible as Marshall's.
[/FONT]
 

lienshan

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and King Wen wants to make sure that his chosen heir does indeed take the throne
I presume, that the solar eclipse of hexagram 55 was in 1070BC and the subject of the meeting with the Lords of the west was primary to demonstrate the superior leadership of the Zhou. The shift of Mandate is connected with a five planet conjunktion May 28 1059BC similar to the conjunktion March 5 1553BC when the Mandate shifted from Xia to Shang. So I read the hexagram 55 as "a proof", that the Duke of Zhou was in Anyang both during the meeting and when king Wen arrived in Anyang in 1068BC and was prisoned seven years.

My pointe is, that the Duke of Zhou was too prisoned in 1068BC, but only for three years described in the hexagrams 29.6 and 47.1.4 lines. Hexagram 29 is maybe related to a later situation of his life, but I read the hexagram 47.4 line as expressing his feelings of these three years. According to legend king Wen sent a letter to his sons in 1065BC inspired of the total moon eclipse March 12 after midnight and maybe his words were brought back by a released Duke of Zhou.

The problem to explain is "the problem of the three sons"; the first son of Wu, the first son of the Duke of Zhou and the nineth son of king Wen. Wu was the first son of king Wen and the Duke of Zhou was the fourth son of king Wen, but the first son of Wu was only ten years old at the Conquest date, while the first son of the Duke of Zhou was old enough to rule the fiefdom of Lu at the Conquest date. And the nineth son of king Wen was named "the little one", prince Kang, when he received the fiefdom of Wei including the removed remnants of the Shang people seven years after the conquest date.

The explanation may be found in the lines 2 and 5 of hexagram 28. The Shang king Di Xin solved his "Zhou problem" by forced marriage arrangements. That'll say, that the Duke of Zhou was released in 1065BC, when his son Ji Bo Qin was born, and king Wen was released in 1062BC, when his son prince Kang was born. This would explain, why the Duke of Zhou sent Ji Bo Qin to "the other end of the world" and why prince Kang was choosen as chief of the Shang remnants.

Such a "forced marriage theory" can be studied in hexagrams 2, 9.6, 11.5, 22, 31, 32.5, 44.1, 50.1 where marriage are the subject of the lines? A family connection could too explain, why Di Xin in 1058BC is said to have recognized king Wen as having the authority "to conduct punitive expeditions of his own"?
 

lienshan

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continued

Ji Li, the father of king Wen, died 1101Bc in a Shang prison and King Wen must all his life have regarded the Shangs as an enemy. But he had one big problem: His own first son had no sons, so his linage would die out, if he and his son were killed in a war against the Shangs. This problem was solved 10 years before the Conquest date, when Cheng was born.

Such a point of view might explain, why king Wen waited to proclaim the first Zhou king calendar with a two year mourning period and counting from 1056BC. Maybe this first king calendar celebrated the birth of his grandson Cheng? The mourning period was probably dedicated to his own father Ji Li, so Cheng was according to such a theory born 1056BC. And he was according to legend 13 years old 3 years after the Conquest, when his father king Wu died.

The scholar D.Pankenier date the Shang Dynasty 1554BC-1046BC using research on three dynasty-heralding conjunctions.
 
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midaughter

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The shift of Mandate is connected with a five planet conjunktion May 28 1059BC similar to the conjunktion March 5 1553BC when the Mandate shifted from Xia to Shang. So I read the hexagram 55 as "a proof".

Isnt this just Zhou re-writing history? (see pic attached) The victors write history of course.

Second, none of what you have written is responsive to what I have said: that the eclipse was a bad omen transformed by the Zhou into a mandate,. How is it possible that King Wen, wise and experienced, with all the diviners and astrologers did not see the implications in that eclipse? his death, the eclipse of his personal influence, the civil war among his sons, the instability of the regency established for the young King Cheng, the chosen successor? It seems that were other auguries as to tactics for winning against the Shang, especially Hexagram 7 but certainly this must have come later. Thee certainly seems to be concern about a general officer leading one of the armies and its seems it was crucial. But I wonder how leaders of armies in the field six armies in full fledged military campaign with a large geographical area just conquered yet not subdued, in rugged, mountainous terrain just stop and have a meeting? If so, Why would they not go to the most convenient location for the principals? Was this a satellite hook-up with King Wen perhaps?

Second,
 

midaughter

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I presume, that the solar eclipse of hexagram 55 was in 1070BC and the subject of the meeting with the Lords of the west was primary to demonstrate the superior leadership of the Zhou.

That's what I am finding simplistic considering that by this time as an army of conquest, they didn't need to demonstrate anything to the Shang. What they do at these meetings is assign commands to armies, study terrain, weather conditions, take reports from scouts, send out disinformation about everything-when and where the attack will be, play upon superstition about an eclipse, choose the battle psychology such as carrying the white banners to show the commoners that they fight only the rulers, pick the best battlefields and booby trap them, set up ambush areas and blockades, set areas to cut off retreats, provision their armies in each area and establish supply lines, make and repair weapons. Not only is war hell; war is work. OH yes, and don't forget the soooth sayers. Wish I had been there.
 

lienshan

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I don't think that an army of conquest existed in 1070BC, because king Wen visited Anyang in 1068BC. The assembly in Feng 1070BC was to demonstrate Zhou superiority to the invited Lords of the west by predicting a solar elipse. None of them was able to do so and the leadership of Zhou was underlined this way. I think that the assembly was like a feast with lots of wine and food. The purpose was making friends. That's how the Zhou grew strong and that's too the content of the Yi to me.

The Shang king Di Xin looked otherwise at the event and that's why king Wen was prisoned for seven years from 1068BC to 1061BC, when he was invited to the new Shang calendar feast in Anyang.
 

midaughter

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he assembly in Feng 1070BC was to demonstrate Zhou superiority to the invited Lords of the west by predicting a solar eclipse. excuse me but that's a crock. If the eclipse were a bod omen perhaps the Zhou spin doctors were having a very important meeting discussing how that they get by with this event being known as the Mandate rather than the death of their leader. You sound like these people are wearing name tags for Christ's sake. :rolleyes:

(TOL) Thinking Out Loud, how far IN TIME is it from the first Zhou campaigns across the Fen, Wei valley, etc. and the southern provinces.

It looks like its a 10 year period to ultimate victory. That would be about right, that's how long it takes raise the money, to form alliances, gather and store provisions, assemble and train all the elements of the army-boots on the ground, swordsman, in short, every single weapon known to specialized troops, and the troops are trained to their use, then and may I saw SUSTAIN this army of 6 armies, more or less, by feeding and paying them and quartering them until everything is ready for go. Then training maneuvers are very complex. The army goes from the ground up, every corporal, sergeant, flanker lower ranking officers to field generals or whatever, has to master the job and teach his own troops. Field officers have to look at maps a lot figuring the key river crossing, etc., the weather forecast is key (sounds like D-Day). Reconnaissance Scouts and spies are crucial. Logistics and material must have been a nightmare. If the Zhou started this l0 years before Mu, remember they are not conquering the Shang yet but two other states and wide swashes of territory. I am sure these beginnings allowed the Zhou refine their entire field operation including giving troops battle experience. But all this would take 10 years. I wonder why the Zhou made their move during this time. I mean to say how did they become so powerful and rich that they could raise the armies?
When and to whom was the real story of the eclipse known, e.g. the death of King Wen, the internicine warfare, the chaos that was coming. How can you assume the Shang did not know of the same eclipse? They would have had to have sub-human intelligence not to have known I think both sides thought the eclipse was utterly unfavorable to their own side, actually I think the eclipse WAS unfavorable to both sides. King Wen just figured out the spin: He called it the 'Mandate of Heaven" and he made his generals believe this . I wonder if the inner circle knew King Wen would die and if so, did they through divination try to overcome the unfortunate yet still mutable future. No one knows exactly when King Wen did die: I think it ranges from 9 years , 2 years or just before the battle. The closer his death would have been to the battle would of course been the most unsettling. However, the Zhou jaggernaut seems to have been firmly developed. The fact that the Mu is really a rout shows that the Shang had been beaten before they took the field. Fine military strategy by the Zhou, in fact the best. In a rout up to 80% of the losing force may be killed but the winner suffers very few injuries and death, less than 10%
 

lienshan

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King Wen was prisoned 7 years. His son Wu must have ruled from 1068BC to 1061BC and was by logic allready a very experienced leader, when king Wen died 1050BC. They each had their capitol Hao and Feng. I think that they were two different types. Wu was like his grandfather Ji Li a great warrior and was in charge of the Zhou army. Wen was a spiritual leader and wrote the judgements of the Yi. King Wu attacked the Shangs as soon as possible, when he became king. King Wen never attacked the Shangs during his 50 years as king, allthough his own father Ji Li died in a Shang prison. Two different types and two different ways of politics.

Brandnew exavacations in eastern Shaanxi has shown late Shang settlements far more to the west than previous known. I think that the first Wu campaign to Fort Meng was to conquer this western Shang area to the south of the Yellow River. That's how he fed the army by "the riches of your neighbor". He withdraw to the mountains waiting for the Shang counter attack, but there was no counter attack, because the Shang army was campaigning the Ren-fang tribes in the south-east at the time.

King Wen died in 1050BC and king Wu had a mourning period of two years, so his first campaign against the Shangs must have been in 1048BC or 1047BC. I think that his first success and the lack of a counter attack gave him the idea of attacking the unwalled Shang capitol Anyang, while the Shang army was still engaged in the east. He had to act quick, so the Conquest was in 1046BC or 1045BC.

It's hard to find the battle of Muye described in the Yi unless reading more into the text than I like. This tells me, that the Duke of Zhou was not present. I think that king Wu planned the campaign against the Shangs all by himself. He had already build a pro-army in Hao and used his own officiers and advisers, while king Wen, the Duke of Zhou and the other brothers lived in Feng. This explains, how the Duke of Zhou could rule for seven years untill king Cheng grew adult. He was accepted as leader by the officiers and advisors of the Wu army, but only as long as the son of Wu, king Cheng, was still a child.
 

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great map. thanks. I still would like you to address the idea that the eclipse was known, at least to the Zhou and consider the Shang had astrologers too that knew about the eclipse. I will write more later today....Certainly for the Zhou to become totally mobilized and an army of conquest takes more than one score of riches-there's more complexity here.And the decline of the Shang-there's a power vacuum here and its not just due to one squirrely king. Sima Qian was unable to date the year that the Zhou began their sweep down the Wei River to ultimately defeat those two states (Lu and ??) and ultimately the Shang. One scholar (Han Dynasty) dated this at 1122 BC. One set of the Bamboo Annals (discovered in a grave says the campaign began 1027)
Another version of the Annals, often suspected as a fake, sets the date of the actual conquest at 1045 BC or close to it.
 

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Stephen Karcher read the fifth line of hexagram 7 (my translation from danish) like this:

"...The oldest son leads the legions. The youngest son carries the spirit pictures..."

My "spirit pictures" is a bad translation, but the meaning is described by Sima Qian:

"He went east to review his troops, reaching the Ford of Meng on the Yellow River. Here he had a wooden temple tablet for King Wen crafted, and he placed it in a chariot located in the midst of his armies. Referring to himself as “Prince Fa,” he declared that he meant to campaign according to the intention of King Wen, and that he dared not presume to take such a decision upon himself."

The above explains the meaning of these other lines of hexagram 7:

Nine in the second place means:
In the midst of the army.
Good fortune. No blame.
The king bestows a triple decoration.

Six in the third place means:
Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon.
Misfortune.

The first campaign retreat from the Ford of Meng is maybe this desciption:

Six in the fourth place means:
The army retreats. No blame.
 

midaughter

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I'll go over there, Luis. What is the pivotal thing to me however, is the meaning of 55:5. Do the Zhou really believe it bestowed a mandate on them, did they invent the idea of a mandate I suppose is the preliminary question. Was the eclipse viewed by the Zhou initially as a disaster? -the death of Wen, the civil war of the Zhou, the uncertaintity of his chosen successor's rule? Actually if we assume Marshall's work technical work to be true such as the dating and so forth can we then be led to the conclusion so easily that the Zhou felt this conferred a mandate upon them. I think that is questionable, very questionable. I think that is where his argument is weak, his conclusions not well-supported.
 

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Sima Qian was unable to date the year that the Zhou began their sweep down the Wei River to ultimately defeat those two states (Lu and ??) and ultimately the Shang. One scholar (Han Dynasty) dated this at 1122 BC. One set of the Bamboo Annals (discovered in a grave says the campaign began 1027)
Another version of the Annals, often suspected as a fake, sets the date of the actual conquest at 1045 BC or close to it.
I think that Sima Qian could have dated the Contest by his:

"In the eleventh year of the reign of King Wu, on the day wu-wu in the twelfth month (January) the entire army crossed the Ford of Meng and the patrician lords all convened.
In the second month (roughly March) at first light on the day Jia-zi, King Wu held a dawn court outside the capital city of Shang, in the suburban plain of Mu-ye."

King Wen was prisoned while the last Shang king Di Xin announced a new calendar to his son in 1968BC. The three last Shang kings made calendars to their sons, while they were still alive themselves. Maybe the socalled "King Wen calendar" starting after the conjunction in 1059BC was too made to his son Wu? It started at first newmoon of the second month 1058BC and there was probably 2 years mourning? If so the eleventh year of the reign of king Wu calendar was either 1047BC or 1045BC?

The Bamboo Annals say: the Conquest is the 13th year of the Mandate
 

lienshan

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Hexagram 7

Six at the beginning means:
An army must set forth in proper order.
If the order is not good, misfortune threatens.

Long ago, when King Wu attacked Yin, the Year Star was in Quail Fire, the moon was in the Sky Team of Four, the sun was in the Ford at Split Wood, the next conjunction of sun and moon was in the Handle of the Dipper, and the next appearance of the Time Star was in the Sky Turtle.

The Army did set forth in prober order November 16, 1046BC

I'm chewing :D
 

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Who is the youngest son? Certainly not the heir-presumptive Cheng? Actually when you think about the battle of Mu its anticlimactic, a rout, all the good work being done in advance. I hope they didn't carry the corpse with them. I mean....
 

lienshan

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Who is the youngest son? Certainly not the heir-presumptive Cheng? Actually when you think about the battle of Mu its anticlimactic, a rout, all the good work being done in advance. I hope they didn't carry the corpse with them. I mean....
I think, as agreed with charly in memorizing 29.4, that a line of Yi often tells more stories. That's too how I read hexagram 7. The first line tells both of the first departure of the army, that was not in order (misfortune threatens), and the second departure in order. I too read the fourth line in two ways. "The army retreats. No blame." concerning the first campaign and "The army camp at left. No blame" concerning the second campaign, when the army did cross the river at Ford of Meng. The lines two and six look rather simple to read concerning the leadership of king Wu.

The problem is the reading of lines three and five, because it's difficult to understand the sign translated "corpses" used in both lines. Both lines indicate, that the use of "corpses" brings misfortune. Karcher read the sign as icons and this is too mentioned in the memorizing 7 thread. "the eldest" is ofcourse king Wu, while "the younger" may be pluralis referring to the younger brothers Guan Shu and Cai Shu? If so, the phrase "to transport corpses" may too have a meaning of "traitors"?
 
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midaughter

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:deadhorse:Actually I agree with Charly and Lienshan as well. I think the Duke of Zhou wrote most of the line statements in 55, 7, and perhaps 18, etc. The Zhou said he did and it makes sense. At the critical times before the battle , I assume as King Wen was in the field that the Duke was in attendance of the heir presumptive (just like carting around Prince William today) with plenty of protection and all the court trappings but in the battlefield, probably a more rearward location where there was a well- fortified command center.
Where I cannot get any input from anyone is the significance given to the eclipse and Marshall's conclusion that this event bestowed a Mandate upon the Zhou rather than it being a death omen, no doubt supported by astrologers for King Wen.:rolleyes:
 

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As to my overall comments, I am simply using the Socratic method in which I was trained. I often agree with what is being said< I ask questions to prod the thinker. BTW Lienshan and Charly and Luis-come-lately do the same for me and I really appreciate it. I finally cleared up and was able to focus on my objections to King Marshall's interpretation of the significance of the eclipse. The objections are not directed to him personally, I just present an interpretation that is just as plausible as the one he gives, if not more so. Cheers
 

lienshan

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Where I cannot get any input from anyone is the significance given to the eclipse and Marshall's conclusion that this event bestowed a Mandate upon the Zhou rather than it being a death omen, no doubt supported by astrologers for King Wen.
I think that king Wen was actually a loyal vasal to the Shang king untill the morning of December 20 1059, when the five planet conjunction occured. Such a conjunction only occur every 500 years and had occured before the beginning of the Xia dynasty and the Shang dynasty. His son Dan was a well educated diviner and I think that they together divined the meaning of the conjunction and kept the divination records of the conjunction topsecret:

"The duke then divined with the three tortoise-shells, and all were favourable. He opened with a key the place where the (oracular) responses were kept, and looked at them, and they also were favourable." (The Metal-bound coffer)

The "Wen Yi" is from this point of view the pronogstication of the shift in the Mandate of Heaven. The Zhou Yi includes like a tortoise shell too the describtion of what did really happen in six lines connected to all of the 64 divinations. An example is e.g. hexagram 4. King Wu died and the childking Chen choose his uncle Dan, his teacher, as his stepfather:

Nine in the second place means:
To bear with fools in kindliness brings good fortune.
To know how to take women
Brings supreme good fortune.
The son is capable of taking charge of the household.

Most of the Yi lines are somehow connected with the defeating of the rebellion. I think that there were two campaigns. The first, to the north, was very successfull completed in less than three years. The "new" Shang king Wu-geng and the supporting Zhoubrother Guan-chu were killed, and the remnants of the Shang people were moved to the state of Wei.

The second campaign, to the south, was maybe not that succesfull? It's probably descibed in hexagram 56. The other rebellion supporter Zhoubrother Cai-shu was "banished", but this could cover, that he had in fact joined forces with the Huai Yi tribes in the River Huai valley area? The last Shang king Di Xin was campaigning the eastern Yi tribes (Ren-fang) when the Conquest happend, so the Shang army may have joined forces with the Yi against the new enemy, the Zhou?

I think that the young Zhouking Cheng dismissed the Duke of Zhou seven years after the rebellion and made a peace arrangement with the Yi tribes. The Duke of Zhou was allowed to return to Feng and there he spent his last years writing the lines of the Yi confirming the conjunction pronogstications of king Wen, that there had been a shift in the Mandate of Heaven.
 

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