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The JunZi and the Trigrams

heylise

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Someone asked me about my thoughts about the JunZi in the DaXiang. The one who acts according to the trigrams.

It made me think both about the JunZi and about the trigrams, and I found that in the course of time I had formed images in my mind. I could write them down without having to think a lot about it.

It has grown a bit long in the past two days, too long for posting here, but you can find it here:
JunZi and trigrams

Curious about your views

LiSe
 

dobro p

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It's good work, Lise. And I think the way you've done it, contemplating the images yourself in order to render the meaning in your own words, is probably the best way to try to embody what the images are trying to express. Like an affirmation, I suppose, but when you come up with the words yourself, it goes deeper. Or starts deeper.

About the Da Xiang - my problem with it has always been that there's no 'how to' guide attached to the images of the jun zi. I read them, and I say: "Yes, of course the jun zi is like that. But how to do it?"

You know, for years I've had the same response toward the first great commandment that Jesus reiterates from the old testament: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength." I always think: "Good idea. Now...how do I do that? Cuz it doesn't happen just by my wanting it to happen."

(Coincidentally, yesterday I bought a secondhand book in the Edgar Cayce tradition that claims that meditation and prayer are the way to do exactly that. I'm reading it with great interest. I'm hoping it turns out to be a book that changes my life. I'm being a bit hopeful, perhaps? lol)
 
M

meng

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Love this.

Let me outline a summery, just cuz…

A Junzi:

• owing to his own strength never ceases

• carries everything with great generosity

• unravels the warp

• gives the ambitions of the people the suitable position

• teaches and ponders inexhaustibly, he tolerates and protect the people without limits

• illumines the four regions by his continuous brightness

• is similar and yet different

• pardons transgressions and is lenient towards crimes

• through anxiousness and fear sets in order and examines

• does not permit his thoughts to go beyond his situation

• stays in dignity and virtue and improves the common people

• delegates orders to accomplish affairs

• comes together with friends for discussion and rehearsing

• takes thought of misfortune and guards against it

• is cautious when differentiating things so that each finds its place

“Through anxiousness and fear sets in order and examines”, what an interesting appearance of contradiction from the expressionless and detached sage, so often depicted as this person we are allegedly working to become. This isn’t a person who hides in the background, secure in their innocence and rightness through merely holding their tongue. This is a risk taker and a proactive youth.
 
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dobro p

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A risk taker, but not a foolish risk taker. The jun zi knows the score.

Proactive, but not aggressive.

And counterbalancing the risk taking, there's the certainty that comes at some point as well.

And counterbalancing the proactive capacity is the profound ability of the jun zi to ACCEPT.

Dynamic balance, based on an understanding of how things work combined with the divine guidance/inspiration that comes when you're in a state of balance.

The jun zi balances toughness and generosity.

The jun zi balances intellect, emotion and physicality. Action and non-action.

From where I'm looking, it's the dynamic balance of the jun zi that's key.
 

Sparhawk

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Great work, LiSe.
 
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meng

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A risk taker, but not a foolish risk taker. The jun zi knows the score.

Proactive, but not aggressive.

And counterbalancing the risk taking, there's the certainty that comes at some point as well.

And counterbalancing the proactive capacity is the profound ability of the jun zi to ACCEPT.

Dynamic balance, based on an understanding of how things work combined with the divine guidance/inspiration that comes when you're in a state of balance.

The jun zi balances toughness and generosity.

The jun zi balances intellect, emotion and physicality. Action and non-action.

From where I'm looking, it's the dynamic balance of the jun zi that's key.

This is where we disagree on a certain point, at least I think so. For example, you say not a foolish risk taker, and yet Kan/water/29 involves foolish risks, as well as even the possibilities of obsessions and habits - what some readily refer to as "issues".

This pristine Buddha-like image we have of the Junzi is something I just do not find in the Yijing. An individualist Zen monk, perhaps.

While discussing this subject today, LiSe and I asked the Yi, what is the Junzi? 50.3,4 - 4. We both laughed and agreed, that it's a beautiful answer. This Junzi, tripping, spilling the cauldron, making mistakes, impeding his "normal" way of living for that of a sincerely seeking fool. This is the Junzi I find.

One of the things I like about this is that it potentially puts everyone in touch with their Junzi, not just the elitist few who are full of themselves and condescend to those who are perceived to be lesser informed.

I do agree with you about the balancing points, however. The Junzi isn't a wildman who fell off the deep end, but neither is he this quiet saint, he's so often portrayed as.
 
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maremaria

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Beautiful LiSe. Thanks for sharing.

“Through anxiousness and fear sets in order and examines”, what an interesting appearance of contradiction from the expressionless and detached sage, so often depicted as this person we are allegedly working to become. This isn’t a person who hides in the background, secure in their innocence and rightness through merely holding their tongue. This is a risk taker and a proactive youth.

I liked that.

And from the summary you post, don’t know why, but the ‘is similar and yet different
” in my screen is flashing. JunZi looks like someone exceptional and not exceptional at the same time

While I was reading LiSe text , I had the image of a stone. Detached from a big rock, an unshaped piece of rock , rolling passing through mountains, lakes, river , hit by thunder, warmed by fire day by day takes a shape.

Like the pieces of broken glass bottles we found in the sea which after a long time look like little gems
 
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meng

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While I was reading LiSe text , I had the image of a stone. Detached from a big rock, an unshaped piece of rock , rolling passing through mountains, lakes, river , hit by thunder, warmed by fire day by day takes a shape.

Like the pieces of broken glass bottles we found in the sea which after a long time look like little gems

Like it a lot.
 
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maremaria

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Yi has humor :) Indeed beautiful answer. 50.3.4. to 4 .
Its the "not knowning" that make an individual JunZi . The forces that keep the rock rolling.
 

bradford

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Insightful as usual.
I still see the Junzi as a younger figure, still learning, and here being trained
to work with the Ba Gua insights in Zhen and Hui (Lower and Upper) places.

Ever ponder why the Junzi is left out of 08, 16, 20, 21, 24, 25 & 59
in favor of the Xian Wang? And out of 11 & 44 for the Hou?

It might be a fun exercise to derive ethical lessons from the Ba Gua for the
Junzi in these cases.
 

lindsay

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My question about the junzi is, Is the junzi really a model human being? Is this stuff wisdom or just trite common sense? Do we really need the Yijing to tell us such things?

Many people say the Yi is a bottomless well of wisdom, yet seem unable to articulate even the most obvious examples to support their assertion. It’s like saying two slices of bread comprise a sandwich. Perhaps, but it’s what’s between the slices of bread that really counts. Don’t talk to me about the bread, show me what’s inside! Where’s the beef?

In the case of the junzi, I would suggest the Yi tells us nothing of real value about how to be a human being. More generally, I ask you: what does the Yi tell us that any perceptive and experienced person does not already know?
 

dobro p

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This is where we disagree on a certain point, at least I think so. For example, you say not a foolish risk taker, and yet Kan/water/29 involves foolish risks, as well as even the possibilities of obsessions and habits - what some readily refer to as "issues".

This pristine Buddha-like image we have of the Junzi is something I just do not find in the Yijing. An individualist Zen monk, perhaps.

While discussing this subject today, LiSe and I asked the Yi, what is the Junzi? 50.3,4 - 4. We both laughed and agreed, that it's a beautiful answer. This Junzi, tripping, spilling the cauldron, making mistakes, impeding his "normal" way of living for that of a sincerely seeking fool. This is the Junzi I find.

One of the things I like about this is that it potentially puts everyone in touch with their Junzi, not just the elitist few who are full of themselves and condescend to those who are perceived to be lesser informed.

I do agree with you about the balancing points, however. The Junzi isn't a wildman who fell off the deep end, but neither is he this quiet saint, he's so often portrayed as.


No, I don't think he's a quiet saint, and yes I agree with most of what you've said here. And I agree with Brad that he's a learner, not an accomplished sage, but I don't see him as young. I see him or her as having passed the age 40 mark. See, essentially I see the jun zi as somebody whose main aim in life is spiritual development, someone who's committed and studying and practising. Not somebody pristine, somebody who's a work in progress. You summed it up: 'a sincerely seeking fool'. You'd be happier though, if you got over this: "One of the things I like about this is that it potentially puts everyone in touch with their Junzi, not just the elitist few who are full of themselves and condescend to those who are perceived to be lesser informed." For one thing, the jun zi isn't elitest, cuz like you said he's sincere and he's seeking and he knows how often he's foolish. But on the other hand, he *does* know more than others, in exactly the same way that Miles Davis knows more about music than somebody who's never played music, in exactly the same way that Madhur Jaffrey knows more about cooking than my grandmother did (she never succeeded in poisoning my grandfather despite numerous attempts, but he *did* die a long time before her - was it accumulated stress, or was it to get away from her cooking?), in exactly the same that you and me know more (have more firsthand personal experience of, and possibly insight into) the Yi than somebody who's never seen it. Why am I going on like this? Well, two reasons. First, it ain't wrong to know more than other people. You don't have to condescend others, but you do have to admit to experience if you've got it. Screw false modesty. Second, and more important, is this bit where you said: "it potentially puts everyone in touch with their Junzi". Potentially maybe. In fact, no. There are tons of people on this planet, some of them the walking dead, who have shut themselves off from any possibility of opening up and evolving in this lifetime at least. (One reason I subscribe to the idea of rebirth is cuz of this. I'd never believe in a God that gave us only one crack at this, and on such an uneven playing field lol.) It ain't that the jun zi is better than most people; it's that the jun zi is in a very small minority. Most people can't be arsed to work on themselves for the sake of the inner life. I don't want to come across as one of those condescending people you described, but I feel really strongly about this, so I'll take that risk you described in 29. Most people are really, really, REALLY uninterested in what we're talking about, and of the ones who *are* interested, only a small portion are serious about doing something about it. It's not a failing. It's an inevitability. The planet doesn't need sages. It needs fodder. Most people are very obliging where Gaia's concerned.
 

heylise

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A 'Jun' is a ruler, not someone learning I think. Jun Zi is a term of respect.
Then there are all those titles ending on zi. Lao Zi, Kong Fu Zi, Zhuang Zi, Meng Zi, Ji Zi. I know about Ji Zi when he pretended to be mad, he was an old man.
And finally I don't think Chinese are particularly interested in someone who is learning. They have a huge respect for someone who won his spurs. I think that is also the reason why in some cases they talk about a higher authority than the Jun Zi: the ancient kings, or the Hou, the actual ruler. Some things cannot be accomplished just by being a Jun Zi, for those you need also a position of authority. "The ancient kings founded innumerable territories", "The Hou fashions and completes the Tao of Heaven and Earth
He supports mutually with Heaven and Earth their order".

A sage on a mountain can be a Jun Zi but not a king or a ruler.

Dobro, my experience is that meditation is great for staying on track if you found one. Even if it is only a beginning. But for 'searching' for it, walking meditation is more effective. Every time you encounter something disturbing, you stay free from it. Like a swimmer rubs himself with oil so the water has no grip on him. Not fighting it, not getting into a discussion, not getting annoyed, just let it run off you. It takes a lot of time before you really stay free. If entirely free is possble, I dunno. But after practising it often enough, God feels all the time closer. Or whatever you prefer to call it. Doing it is loving Him with all your power.
This is no wisdom from any serious source, just how it feels, just my two cents.
 

dobro p

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Dobro, my experience is that meditation is great for staying on track if you found one. Even if it is only a beginning. But for 'searching' for it, walking meditation is more effective. Every time you encounter something disturbing, you stay free from it.


Somebody I know and who I listen to carefully talks about 'on the cushion' and 'off the cushion' meditation. She has a knack for the off the cushion variety. It's a matter of watching yourself react in situations and learning the patterns of your reactions so that you can trace them back to the assumptions and beliefs that shape your unconscious mind and actions. By becoming conscious of them, they start to lose their power, and when you understand it completely, it loses its hold over you. The other thing she talks about is what you're talking about, I believe. She says that if a painful reaction comes up and if you have the presence of mind to just relax into it and let it be, that it kicks your consciousness upstairs faster than all sorts of effort and climbing can do. One of the things that falls neatly into this category is being criticized or accused by others. It's so hard not to get defensive. But what does it matter really? Is anybody really going to believe in my self-image because I defend it? I don't think so. Better to let it slide off you like water off an oily swimmer like you describe.
 

hilary

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Thank you, LiSe - I'm enjoying this a lot, seeing many things I hadn't before. 64's trigrams also remind me of the small fox's eyes and ears trained on the currents below the ice - applying clear perception to whatever is swirling and changing under the surface.

It makes great sense that the junzi is based on Not Knowing. He's a 'zi', after all, not an adult. (Is there a clear difference between the way he behaves in the Daxiang and the wisdom of the ancient kings?) I've half an idea this might come out quite clearly in the Zhouyi. If you read through his appearances there, following the sequence of hexagrams, doesn't he appear to be learning and maturing as he goes along? I think there's a detailed story here waiting for someone to tell it.
 

hilary

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Ack. Posted without refreshing the page, missed loads of posts, and everyone is way ahead of me on the 'zi' part. I think he starts out young, though, in the Zhouyi - 1.3, 2.0, 3.3, full of energy and dreams, and just starting to learn that it's not always good to run after them.
 
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meng

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About the age/experience of junzi, Hilary’s comment makes the most sense to me, that he starts out young and matures over time. But I also think there is the idea that in maturing he never loses the flexible nature of his youth. He is still willing and able to change for the better, not set fast in his ways, as most people become as they grow old. In this sense he grows ageless.

How different this is from the common way: starting out unknowing, learning through school and experience, determining “the truth”, becoming set in cement in his limited understanding, no longer able to move and grow beyond those rigid rules, he’s made for himself years ago. Thus his junzi died an early death, and now he lives on as an old man.
 
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maremaria

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My simplified perception of JunZi is that is an individual who because of his capabilities, somehow emerges from the crowd and becomes visible. And the people around him, appreciate that distinguished value thus they acknowledge that and give him ,in their minds, a title.

It seems that because JunZi is a title with not authorities to make decisions as a king can , but in my eyes I see his presence during the decision making process and after that also. Like a wise counselor in a King’s courts or a leader amongst the people. Maybe he doesn’t make decisions but imo he forms.

Lise, you said “A 'Jun' is a ruler, not someone learning I think”. Could you elaborate it a little more ?

Lindsay : More generally, I ask you: what does the Yi tell us that any perceptive and experienced person does not already know?

Intriguing question, imo. A simple answer could be No.

Few days ago I was discussing with someone a reading I had about hex 3. I was told “ Picture having a big ball of tangled string and your job is to weave it into something useful. Before you can weave it you must untangle it. If you just start pulling hard on it here and there, it just makes the mess more difficult to untangle. So you must patiently find the end, and pull it free, then a little more, and more, and so on”. Is somehow Lise perceives Hex 3 in her Junzi and trigrams work.

Is it something I didn’t know? No. I had to untangled fishing strings when I was a child and I have follow that advise many times while trying to untangled various strings. Big thing!!! Everyone knows the right way to do it. The next question came to my mind was “why I couldn’t connect that information/knowledge now, that situations require to take care of the messy string ball I hold in my hand?” And this is not the only example I have during my very short engagement with Yi.

Maybe Yi’s purpose is not only to provide us information, knowledge but also to help us make the connections in our mind and transform a raw data into something meaningful. I don’t know really. A huge tangled ball of thread to me.
 
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maremaria

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About the age/experience of junzi, Hilary’s comment makes the most sense to me, that he starts out young and matures over time. But I also think there is the idea that in maturing he never loses the flexible nature of his youth. He is still willing and able to change for the better, not set fast in his ways, as most people become as they grow old. In this sense he grows ageless.

How different this is from the common way: starting out unknowing, learning through school and experience, determining “the truth”, becoming set in cement in his limited understanding, no longer able to move and grow beyond those rigid rules, he’s made for himself years ago. Thus his junzi died an early death, and now he lives on as an old man.

I like that .

Stagnant water vs flowing water ?
 

heylise

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Lindsay: Is this stuff wisdom or just trite common sense? Do we really need the Yijing to tell us such things?
And Maria: Maybe Yi’s purpose is not only to provide us information, knowledge but also to help us make the connections in our mind and transform a raw data into something meaningful. I don’t know really. A huge tangled ball of thread to me.
Something can be trite common sense, but knowing it at the right moment is what turns it into wisdom. The Yi is not just saying things, it is answering. To a specific question, at a specific moment.

I said the JunZi is not young, but with that I meant there is nothing in his name which makes him young in years. I know that zi also means child, but I think it has more to do with what we call ‘junior’. I remember in that English series, “Are you being served?” there was a “young mister Grace”. He was an old fossil, but he was the son of the former mister Grace, so forever ‘the young one’.

In China sons were, and still are, extremely important, and even more so a son who is a credit to his father. I think that is where the ideal image of the JunZi comes from.
In Western terms he would be the one who is worthy of our highest standards. He is not a living person but represents an ideal.

LiSe
 

bradford

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We can take our definition of human being from the philosophers
or we can see that human is as human does. I'll follow the latter,
and continue to see even the best of us as able to uses lots of improvement.
That the Junzi is no longer learning is an inferior thing to say.
So no- the Yi isn't telling us how to be human. It's suggesting ways
to be better than that.
 

heylise

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I didn't say that he is no longer learning, just that "there is nothing in his name which makes him young in years." Of course if you want to get better, you have to be young at heart. I think Laozi was very young, even though his name means 'old'.

LiSe
 
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fkegan

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Junzi or Superior Man and trigram imagery

We can take our definition of human being from the philosophers
or we can see that human is as human does. I'll follow the latter,
and continue to see even the best of us as able to uses lots of improvement.
That the Junzi is no longer learning is an inferior thing to say.
So no- the Yi isn't telling us how to be human. It's suggesting ways
to be better than that.

Hi Bradford and LiSe,
I enjoy the use of Aristotle's a thing is what it does especially combined with Aquinas' to be human is to be mortal. fallible, and through Adam sinful. However, the notion that one statement about Wilhelm's 'Superior Man' is inferior to your interpretation of Junzi as being how to be better than... is cute.:rofl:

Which trigram set is it that bears the commentary the Superior Man can best express his superiority by viewing all others and their remarks as inferior? Isn't that more typical in that commentary to the other guy used as an example (cf hex 23.6)?

Just not enough fog here in Vegas to join that level of discussion. OTOH the set of image commentary where the trigrams are interpreted in terms of moral lessons about how best to operate in life as a gentleman of status and respect is an interesting use of trigram imagery as commentary upon the hexagrams.

Beyond those hexagrams where LiSe has noted the Junzi is mentioned in the image, I am intrigued by some of those where he isn't. Hex 21 is the Monad of third set of 10 about cause and effect or Justice or Karma. But the Junzi isn't the one who establishes justice--it is the King (of former more idealized times) who establishes laws and punishments.

Hex 20 is the final quiescent result of the prior set of 10 about social life. Here also it is not the Junzi who visits everywhere observing the state of society and making helpful instruction to them, again it is the kings of old. Perhaps these examples shed light upon what is appropriate to the Junzi and what requires higher status.

Frank
 

lindsay

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Somebody should probably mention the fact that "junzi" is a technical term in Chinese Confucian philosophy, and it occurs numerous times in several of the Confucian classics with the meaning of "exemplary person".

One of the reasons scholars usually attribute the Yi's Daxiang to a Han Confucian commentator is his frequent use of the term "junzi", a Confucian buzzword seemingly used in this commentary with its full technical Confucian meaning.

The following link doesn't amount to much, but it shows how the Chinese look at the term "junzi", whether in the Yi or elsewhere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junzi

A comparable Western term - having a specialized meaning all Westerners would instantly recognize just as all educated Chinese would recognize "junzi" - might be something like "messiah" or "christ", although the junzi was never a religious figure, but an ethical hero.

It is true some uses of junzi in the Zhouyi portion of the text probably predate Confucius himself, but there isn't much doubt the later Daxiang's junzi and the Confucian moral hero are one and the same ideal person.

Lindsay
 

bradford

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A 'Jun' is a ruler, not someone learning I think. Jun Zi is a term of respect. ...
And finally I don't think Chinese are particularly interested in someone who is learning.


You might want to retract your statements, but that's what you said.

I think Junzi started out as an affectionate diminutive, like the Japanese mama-san and Spanish mamacita. Centuries later it became more exclusively a term of respect.
Then the folks who named Laozi made a little reflexive play on words, picking Lao to bring out the paradox of "old child" "and "venerable elder." IOW, I think Laozi's name was a gag, and yet another poke at the Confucians.
 

Sparhawk

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the Japanese mama-san and Spanish mamacita. Centuries later it became more exclusively a term of respect.

See, Sophia Vergara is a Spanish Mamacita. In a few centuries, we'll be using the term as akin to "Virtuosity" (not there isn't anything virtuous about her... :D)


sophia.jpg
 

fkegan

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You might want to retract your statements, but that's what you said.

I think Junzi started out as an affectionate diminutive, like the Japanese mama-san and Spanish mamacita. Centuries later it became more exclusively a term of respect.
Then the folks who named Laozi made a little reflexive play on words, picking Lao to bring out the paradox of "old child" "and "venerable elder." IOW, I think Laozi's name was a gag, and yet another poke at the Confucians.

Hi Bradford,
Words like everything else are a matter of interpretation. All that lives changes and so we all learn all the time one way or another but that is only relevant in discussions about immortals who don't change and may or may not learn depending upon one's interpretation of omniscience.

Rather than ask LiSe to retract her words, perhaps better to rephrase them. I suspect she meant the Junzi would not be a student taking notes in class but a fully graduated master of his philosophy with the status and position recognizing that Established status.

All remarks have a context and each of us is limited by our own personal context. This makes it important that each of us spend some time becoming aware of our own context as well as noticing the context as well as the precise wording of others.

Though I continue to delight in your comments, they are so expressive of your Self. Congratulations! It is quite a nifty achievement to be so clear in your words.

Do you think folks named Lao Tzu or he was just known as the Old Sage and it is later folks who came to the insight that the two pieces of his moniker were a Taoist paradox? Or do Taoists poke Confucians or just follow their own Tao which makes the Confucians feel poked when they bump into the Tao gap?

Luis,
What a lovely concrete image of the Ideal you have added to the mix. That is what I call context or Tao done with flair. And you tastefully cropped out the outstretched fingernails of her most extreme positioned hand too. Is that her wedding ring on the other modestly not exposed fingernails?

Frank
 
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Sparhawk

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Sorry, I'm more concerned about her tan lines... :rofl:
 

dobro p

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the junzi was never a religious figure, but an ethical hero.

It is true some uses of junzi in the Zhouyi portion of the text probably predate Confucius himself, but there isn't much doubt the later Daxiang's junzi and the Confucian moral hero are one and the same ideal person.

Okay Lindsay, I like some of the terminology you've lobbed into the discussion here - 'ethical hero' and 'ideal person'.

Do you think of this ethical hero, this ideal person, as what some people call a 'realized being' or do you think of him/her as a work in progress? Enlightened, or on the path?
 

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