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Hex 23 - stop or go

pakua

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Hi all,

"'Hexagram 23! I mustn't do this' as opposed to 'Hexagram 23 - what will be stripped away? What is under the appearances?' etc, etc"

I saw this while browsing an old thread. This opens another door for me. Prior to this, I had always thought, when receiving 23, it meant stop, proceeding will lead to disaster. But now I have the idea, that if I have the courage, and the desire, that in some circumstances it might be a good thing to go ahead, as long as I know what I'm letting myself in for.

I wonder though, would it depend on whether it's more of an inner-directed or outer-directed question - in other words, if my question has to do with inner states or relationship energies, or if I'm planning a course of action (being vs doing)?

Anyone have any ideas?
 

martin

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In terms of doing and achieving in the outer world 23 can be quite disastrous, but it depends on the lines that you get. In terms of inner being there is often a gain.
In other words, although 23 can be a disaster for your personality - your identity in the world - it will probably be beneficial for your essence or "soul".
Whatever happens, I would say that an inner orientation is always helpful with this hexagram. I think that it says in fact that the real purpose is inward.
There is a Sufi saying: What you really posses is what you cannot lose in a shipwreck.
 

pagan

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Hi Pakua
The whole feel of hex 23 to me is that something inferior has penetrated 'your resting place' the bed. Under the bed would seem unconsciously done, splitting the bed means that what you rest upon inwardly is cracking into two. Whatever the question, it would seem to me that 23 is saying that there is elements that are creating a division within you and this will cause you to lose your calm inner center and force you to take action when you should have kept still. In the outer world, it might correspond to a separation of some sort that may ultimately be beneficial, especially if it leads away from the inferior element which is at the core of the hexagram's message.
P.
 

midaughter

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Dear P: I had that idea once about 23 and then I disabused myself of that notion. Yes, stop, march in the other direction, seek deliverance. Don't fiddle while Rome burns!
Only the fifth line offers and any hope and that not much. The hexagram is similar to the tower of tarot. For inner spiritual work see 'When things Fall Apart"
by the Buddhist nun Padme Chodrun.

sun
 
C

candid

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It depends upon what's most important to you that determines if 23 is good or bad for you. Gain the world and lose your soul? Or lose the world to gain your soul? Lose the camel and you just might make it through the eye of a needle.
 

yddo8obby

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there's 5 solid yins that are totally stable, they just dont have any guidance---dare to be stupid and win
 

megabbobby

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that's kind of like a joking way of talking about it above...

but really---it seems there is 'flow' in the hex 23 situation- there is flow in every hexagram

think about a movie that was about a huge disaster that was still a good movie
many horror movies probably kind of plotwise resemble hex 29 'the abyss'...but it is still an entertaining movie

just because youre in a hex 23 situation does not mean it has to be bad..,
every hex has 'sweet spots' that you can align yourself with..
the taoistic yumminess is always in every moment.on some level--physical mental emotional///infinite possibilities

you align yourself into the hex 23 and you will taste the yumminess
 
J

jeanystar

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Megabbobby,
I enjoy your words.

There are times in life when the stripping away is the very best that can happen.
Consider a person living in a very cluttered house who decides to finally clear out, throw away, get rid of everything that once seemed so impossible to part with. You need to strip it ruthlessly.Because the time has come. There is no progress until you do.

Anyone who has ever moved knows the psychological upheaval that accompanies unearthing the material stuff and throwing away. The outer process and the inner are inseparable. Your "bed", your resting place, has eroded and collapsed.

If you can be really bold, there is an exhiliration in tossing and stripping, in realizing that when you strip down to bare bones , what is essential is untouched...and it has a chance now.

hex 23 says to me that it is time to strip away absolutely everything that is clogging your channels and your life.. things, people, attitudes and situations.
 
C

candid

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From the "I Ching Slang Book"

23
1. cut backs
2. knock it off
3. turn it down

Simply good advise when energy is going to waste.
 

pagan

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Hi Everyone,
I am sometimes floored at how other people interpret lines as good or bad. For example: Sun's decision that 23 line 5 "offers hope but not that much". Just looking at the hexagram, one might use a strong sexual image of a vagina to be penetrated. Each line of the hexagram seems to talk about how 'deeply' penetrated the subject is. But line 6 is a strong sage that has a very weak or corrupt following (lines 1-5), his only recourse is to retreat into the heavens, or else he will become enmeshed (contaminated) in lesser things. He could stay around and challenge himself in this way (lost in a harem) but there is an over-arching image here that shows he has already gone beyond a taste for lesser things and really has no choice but to move on.

So it seems to me it depends on who you are in the image of hex 23. Are you line 5? Then you have a choice to be led away by following the strong sage at the top and not listening to the weak minister in line 4. Hence the whole situation could turn around for you. But if you are the person in line 2, hankering after a weak partner in line 5, the situation bodes little hope.

I think every hexagram could be the basis of a great novel in and of itself.
P.
 

midaughter

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My image of the hexagram is decay and corrosion from within leading to everything falling apart. The fifth line has a slight opportunity to unite the other yin lines to resist this strong tendency, probably only ONE chance. This is a moving, fluid, and inopportune situation. The sixth line will fall to the ground and sprout again-it is not seen as moving upwards-it's the top floors of the World Trade Center.

No hexagram is inherently good or bad, it is the human mind that labels it as such. In fact, adverse conditions can become learning situations and, as Gene says, this is a dualistic realm, empty itself of inherent existence.

I REALLY RECOMMEND THIS BOOK 'WHEN THINGS FALL APART!!'

With that in mind I offer a tongue-in-cheek reading:
Dear Son of Heaven: You have asked about the future of your realm and received Hexagram 23 with several moving lines. There will be drought and crop failures, we will be invaded from the north, your court will dissolve into competing factions and there will be more war, you will attempt to avoid all this by having me tortured and killed and my clan sold into slavery yet this will fail to help the situation You yourself will not live long and your heir will be defeated by the Jin clan. Since we have intermarried with the Jin, they will give us positions in the new government and eventually we will prosper.
Do not try to find me, by this time I have fled in accordance with the times. Good luck, sir, and remember eventually things will turn around.
 
C

candid

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Pagan, I?m coming to the conclusion that ?Yi people? can be some of the most negative individuals on God?s green earth. It sort of reminds me of an old fundamentalist Christian friend who, when I told him he saw a demon behind every rock, corrected me saying ?no, I see at least two!?

But certainly not all Chingsters are this way, IE: Meggabobby, who sees the blessing behind every demon ? ?the taoistic yumminess is always in every moment?. And his cousin, who says ?dare to be stupid and win.? You go, Bobby! This is much more than mere positive thinking. It?s positive understanding. But don?t tell that to nay sayers, or you may become a demon too.
 

stuart

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I think hex 23 is positive the further up the hexigram you go.23 line 4 is the turning point;sort of similar to 59 line 5.However i have had this line when in real danger.Perhaps this is the line of someone who finally experiences the stripping and wiil have to endure the danger in whatever degree it presents itself.
 

pakua

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I had 23.4 recently, and nothing much happened. Maybe that's because I chickened out and backed off. My girlfriend has been promising to do something with me for some time, so I wondered if I should press her for it now. I took the advice and didn't say anything about it. It didn't seem worth it. I can wait.

I'm concluding that only if you're desperate would you go through 23 voluntarily... if you're thinking, come what may, I need to go for this, and let the chips fall where they may.

Sun,

If you go through the Tower with a dedicated focus, because you have to, and don't lose sight of your goal, that may be a similar good medicine.
happy.gif
 
S

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If I had seen this discussion a few months ago when I was brand new to I Ching, I would have run screaming every time I got 23. Luckily I have had some experience with that particular hex now, so I know it doesn't foretell doom and destruction. Someone mentioned the Tower card of the Tarot. I mentioned in the other discussion comparing the two that I see 23 as Death. Its a transformation, but a positive one. Its the stripping away of what you don't need, what is no longer useful to you. It can be painful, especially in regards to something you are not ready to let go of, but eventually you come out the other side and are better for it. When I get 23, I always think, this too shall pass. Just my newby two cents
happy.gif
 

midaughter

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Dear Seeker, Candid, Pagan, Pa Kua, Stuart and all,

Hexagram 23 when viewed in its entirety is the cycle of destruction (and its true, inherently neither good nor bad). However, one rarely encounters the entire cycle. A lower moving line is not so bad; multiple moving lines mean trouble.

For myself, in reading this line over the years I detected in myself a denial of the potential of this hexagram to indicate destruction and potential death. This was part of a denial of the power that the Changes could reflect. I mean no one wants to ask an innocent question and see this reading. ("There I was minding my own business and the divination says my world will fall apart, blah, blah).

I just went through a health crisis of hexagram 23 with multiple moving lines. Every moving line represented an facet of the crisis as things got worse and worse and actually the doctor told my family to make arrangements as I battled it out in intensive care.

But I had the better overall view of the situation via the I Ching and I knew it was coming, that it was serious and I should insist on being hospitalized, really strongly insist, until the crisis came. (The hospital had sent me home finding nothing wrong and I waited 48 hrs and called an ambulance and this time they found the immediate problem and eventually, three months later, the underlying problem which it turns out is completely treatable with antibiotics.)

I also knew as I divined about other aspects of this crisis, despite the look on the doctors faces and my family, that I would make it through thanks to the Yi for giving me the knowledge to go against the hospital and doctors who couldn't find anything and also for letting me know it wasn't fatal, I would not die.

So, what can I say? This deeper knowlege the I Ching gives requires courage and acceptance of reading, not denial. (I often think that when such a strong reading occurs that we should have the help of professional diviners since its hard to do this for yourself.)

One or two moving lines is really not so bad but multiple moving lines shows a strong cycle of destruction.

Now, it may be a relationship question and the two people in question needed to part anyway so the legs of the bed are broken,there is the removal of decay, the stripping away idea. But inherent in the hexagram is death, the cycle of destruction, a force of nature neither in and of itself good nor bad but applied to individual circumstances can indicate tragedy.

This is a watershed in the I Ching career: Do I want to go this far in experiencing the Book of Changes or do I want to stay at a less serious level? I would say that beginners should stay at the less serious level; old timers cannot help but experiencing this Hexagram. I also think that delving too deeply into the Book of Changes is not good for many, and may be ultimately harmful and is best left to professionals. With that in mind, I feel that the level of engagement with the Yi is absolutely a matter of personal choice that must be respected.

As ever,

Sun
 
J

jeanystar

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Dear Sun,
I dont really understand how interpreting this hex as a very dire situation would mean one is "going deeply into the I Ching" - while interpreting it as less dire would mean being a Yi reader at a "less serious level".....I think it has all to do with the situation.

I tend to agree with Seeker.....i used to get very frightened when I got this hexagram.but after 15 years, I have gotten this hex on numerous occasions....and it didnt end up meaning anything so dire as I might have feared.

I got it this past august when questioning about my job. A Yi friend of mine was frightened for me and said that maybe I was going to lose my job, etc. I took it as a reflection of the fact that I was undergoing a major revamping of my career goals, a personal crisis of sorts. I am still in process of sorting out my life goals and making decisions about where I want to be in future....And 23 was telling me that I am not where I belong ultimately....but other than that, it was not foretelling anything esp foreboding.

One of the multiple lines I got was 23.3. What ended up happening in Sept was that someone I worked very closely with, and who was not someone I enjoyed being around to put it mildly, resigned. This "stripping" marked a major change in the atmosphere of my immediate suroundings and it was "not a mistake"..it was a fortunate change. Altho I am still considering ways to move on, I dont feel in crisis.

One thing that Karcher says still prods me...that I need to strip away (this job) or "the way will close." That makes me feel pressured because I feel like I am dancing as fast as I can, and there is no viable new position on the horizon.

Is 23 what you would see as a call to take greater action, or is it a time to submit to the forces at work and be prepared to exit?
I guess that is the original question in this thread! What is the appropriate stance to take after a 23 reading......aggressive action or an internal revamping. Surely it cannot be the only alternative just to submit to "tragedy?"
Jeannie
 
C

candid

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Greetings, Sun.

Great post. I wish I had time to respond now more in depth because you raise some succinct points. No doubt that your experience with all 64 hexagrams demonstrates a variety of applications, from gravely serious to passing fancies. 23 is no exception. Yes, I too have seen the foretelling of death from 23, and it was tragic for me to lose this person. In the bigger picture, however, even death is the beginning of life. ?Oh, death, where is thy sting?? I believe this is more significant than idealism and more realistic than denial. If truth is what we seek, we must be prepared to deal with it, and still benefit from it. ?This concerns the deepest stratum of his being, for this alone is superior to all external fate.? This, above all things, is what Yi has taught me.

Take care, and thanks.

Candid
 

megabbobby

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sometimes it's good to be naughty

who comes out on top in twenty three?
the forces of darkness-disintegration

can you take a step back and become the darkness
 
C

candid

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Hi Jeannie,

"Surely it cannot be the only alternative just to submit to "tragedy?"

So agreed! Submitting to 23 is inevitable. Things fall away. That is unavoidable. But when a branch is pruned the tree's life returns to the root, and from there new and greater life grows. If we mourn death too much, we fail to make the most of a life which follows. If we fear loss too much, we won't recognize the life which is present.
 

midaughter

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Now this thread is getting down to brass tacks. I would say to those who wish to embrace the darkness and destruction you would make good tantrics of the Tibetan type since they are known to meditate in the presence of the dead. I myself study with the New Kadampas (a tibetan tradition) and the first thing I asked the kadam is whether or not I had to meditate with dead bodies in a cold cave somewhere. I understand this idea. The tantra I practiced was sexual-immersing oneself in that which is strong within you and by giving yourself in its fears or pleasures, transcend it. The underlying idea (whether sex or death) is the same.
Mayahana Buddhists spend a great of time practicing the process of death and leaving the body. Its almost tiresome, but the aim is to have a controlled rebirth, not one dictated by one's karma. (I guess that means I will be back harrassing I Ching students in the future-so perhaps we all will meet again and Hilary can still labor getting her newsletter out on time.)
Those who know me know well that I never recommend passively accepting a fate that is unfavorable. The advanced practice in the Yi Jing is to, if possible, overcome an unfavorable reading-knowing the lines and hexagrams is only the first part. (Of course, the other advanced practice is knowing how to accept adverse happenings and they frequently cannot be changed).
I always say, "Seek deliverance!" As the Yi itself says we can through divination "Aid the gods in governing the world." The Great Treatise also points out that "misfortune is never the will of heaven." We co-create with the Universe when we change an outcome and its a great accomplishment when we do this for the good . I first saw this idea of co-creating with the Universe in Joseph Adler's "Sung Dynasty Uses of the I Ching." so this is not a new idea at all.

As ever,

Sun
 

pakua

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"The advanced practice in the Yi Jing is to, if possible, overcome an unfavorable reading-knowing the lines and hexagrams is only the first part. (Of course, the other advanced practice is knowing how to accept adverse happenings and they frequently cannot be changed). "

Sun, I'm wondering how one might distinguish. Would it be correct to say, if the event comes at you from "outside", such as society-at-large-, work environment, natural disaster, there is not much one can do except learn to accept, but if the event is "internally" generated, then it should be possible to overcome, by changing attitude, changing your methods, etc?

Or is that too simplistic?
 
C

candid

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Sun, I'm not sure what meditating in a cold cave before the dead has anything to do with what I've said.
howmuch.gif
 

pagan

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Hi everyone,
I guess I'll take a turn at the 'overarching' meaning in hexagram 23 that we are all trying to point at.

As long as we judge everything we do from an outer world standpoint we keep trying to 'manage' the outer world and that is where we tend to miss the point.

It seems that everyone's point of view here is about what is "going to happen" but is that really the point of studying the IC?

When a woman wants to wear lipstick does she apply it to the mirror or to her own lips?

If we want to improve the look of the outer world, don't we make the application to our perception, attitude, habits, faith? Or do we 'do' something in the outer world to 'make' it happen out there?

When the caterpillar changes into a butterfly, how did he do it?

Sitting still in a cave with the dead? Isn't that just some more outer world crap? Sit still in here with the 'inner' dead and see how nature will just automatically process it and move on.

The major effort is to get out of our own way.
P.
 

martin

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Sitting in an outer cave is a trick, sitting in an inner cave is also a trick, what is the difference?
In both cases one is trying to avoid the real thing.
 

lindsay

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Martin, please tell me what the "real thing" is, if you can! I cannot make much sense out of this string. Everyone is trying too hard to be "deep" and "spiritual," I think. Hex 23 has been my constant companion for almost two years. Tell me something real, please!
 

martin

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Omagod Lindsay! A friend of mine who is very fond of language always insists that I must & should be able to put (my) IT into words.
But I can't. Because ... I can't.
I don't know why. It's not deep or spiritual. Maybe it's simply too simple.
I will take your question with me when I go to bed and who knows, perhaps, tomorrow ...
Give me some time.
happy.gif
 
C

candid

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Generalizations are troublesome. We each have personal experiences with each hexagram and line, and we draw the association into our present interpretations. Then there is the matter of our own personal design and inherent nature. A spiritually inclined individual will always be that way, and they will interpret the world and the Yi through those eyes. A scientist will always see life as a scientific phenomenon. A philosopher will see it as a philosophy, etc. A minimalist could view 23 as a positive thing. A materialist will see it as a loss. One?s no better than the other, just different views from different natures. No one way defines it completely, just individual observations of the same thing.
 

lindsay

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Quite right, Candid. It's the old business of the blind men and the elephant, isn't it? Each of us has a different interpretation depending on what parts of the elephant we have touched. A nice fable.

The problem for me is that I have come to doubt there really is an elephant. That is the part Martin is going to clear up for me, as soon as he finds the words.

On a less abstract plane, I am not so sure we are condemned to always sit in our own boxes. It is quite true a scientist will view phenomena according to his science - but he wouldn't be a scientist otherwise, would he? And - more to the point - he is not always thinking like a scientist. Sometimes he is a father, a friend, a lover, a tourist, a movie-goer, a devil, a worrier, a mess. What of his view of the world then?

No, no, Candid, I find I ultimately cannot agree with you here. We are capable of seeing things more than one way. And people do change their minds once in awhile, don't they? We share a lot more as people than we differ as individuals.

So perhaps each of us thinks along several different, but parallel lines when we read the Yi. Eventually, depending on the situation, we settle on one of them. But it is always, always provisional, isn't it? Subject to change - I should say "correction" - without notice. Reading the Yi is like trying on a new pair of shoes. Normally I wear a size 11, but sometimes I go a half-size up or down. Also the shoes must be appropriate for the occasions I plan to wear them. The trick is finding the right "fit",

Meanwhile, regarding Hex 23, I must say I have found it more positive than negative in the long run. More hopeful than discouraging. Often I have been slow to praise Stephen Karcher, but I find his vision of Hex 23 the most useful. Think of yourself as a crustacean. Sometimes one outgrows one's shell, and it is necessary to leave the comfy and familiar behind. There will be a period of acute vulnerability - also wonderful freedom from restraint - and lots of tenderness and pain. But regeneration is part of living life. A fact, a given. Reality, if you will. But let's wait for Martin before we speack of reality.
 

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