...life can be translucent

Menu

non-ordinary reality

44bob123

visitor
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
115
Reaction score
0
If we tentatively accept the hypothesis of the breakdown of the bicameral mind, ( gods no longer speak directly to us), with the resultant right / left brain division, (we are predominantly logical rather than creative), and our culture's over-emphasis on rational thought, then does this mean that it is almost futile to interpret the Yijing without enhancing our "spiritual ?" side. By this I mean not just occasional visualization, but perhaps cultivating trance states and encouraging non-ordinary reality, rather than endlessly manipulating hexagrams into complex patterns to derive precise meanings. Such a situation is probably close to early Chinese divination practices?

I bought Karcher's "Total I Ching" and found his "tools for change" methodology a prime example of mathematical manipulation and totally OTT. There seemed little poetry in his approach, IMHO.

Having read several books on African divination, it appears that diviners often combine physical divination with trance states.

So, has anyone tried a more mystical / magical approach?

Bob-I'm-off-on-holiday-tomorrow
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
No, nobody in this group has ever experimented with altered states.
We got here through our interest in normal states, like accounting.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Every time I read "bicameral mind" it reminds me of a popular publisher of "special" self-help books in the mid-nineties: Zonpower, Dr. Frank R. Wallace and Neo-Tech. (I used to get, at least, one mailing a month from them...) BTW, it should read "breakdown INTO the bicameral mind," something Dr. Wallace believed was the major negative development of the Western mind, beginning with the spread of Plato's philosophy. Before that, the mind was holistic. Perhaps it is the reason Western and Eastern thought is so different.

I bought Karcher's "Total I Ching" and found his "tools for change" methodology a prime example of mathematical manipulation and totally OTT. There seemed little poetry in his approach, IMHO.

Having read several books on African divination, it appears that diviners often combine physical divination with trance states.

Now, let's not confuse Western analytics and logic with Eastern (specially Chinese) correlative thought. They are different animals and even at the level of "objective" numerological analysis, the approaches are different. Different parts of the brain are used for interpretation. You might think the methodological approach presented Karcher is mechanical but it isn't. Mind you, I'm not much of a fan of Karcher but what he presents has been part of the old exegesis of the Yijing, even when, in some cases, it is adapted.

You seem to crave the novelty and romance of Ifa divination. I am very familiar with Ifa and the many flavors of African religions. As you may know, with slight variations in the name of the different Orishas, depending which of those flavors we talk about (Voodoo, Santeria, Candomble, Umbanda, Kimbanda, etc.), there's a whole pantheon of powerful gods and goddesses in THE Religion. My suggestion is that you should not approach Ifa divination without approaching the religion through one of their initiated priests and priestesses. IMHO, for all the opportunistic books published about it, Ifa divination isn't a self-guided tour. But, by all means, if a "combination of physical divination with trance states" is what you are looking for, please do approach the religion. You will not find that in the pedestrian level of approach most use with the Yijing though (nor with a similar approach of Ifa, of course...).
 
Last edited:

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
No, nobody in this group has ever experimented with altered states.
We got here through our interest in normal states, like accounting.

Great, now I can tell all of those that claim I'm "altered" to take a hike. :D
 

solun

visitor
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
265
Reaction score
3
analytical breakdowns accounted for ~

'the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearsest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth: so is every one who is born of the Spirit'

Jesus to Nicodemus in the Book of John (NT) - but not in King James English , probably ancient aramaic, does sounds kind of poetic in KJV

btw, I never noticed that it benefitted anyone to work themselves up into any kind of frenzy to hear what 'the spirit' is saying. You just have to be open to it and listen. Prepare ye ... as it were, become a ready soul.

with the Yi, change is best of a gradual nature, and perceiving it's moment is a continual process of actually being alert and vigilant more than of being out of your senses. IMO
 
Last edited:

solun

visitor
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
265
Reaction score
3
From S. Karcher's book on Ta Chuan

excerpts from Stephen Karcher's book
Ta Chuan:The Great Treatise The Key to Understanding The I CHing and it's place in your life

well, it may not be THE key, but it's key-like ...

from the section of sage people, spirits and change :
"Change contains the measures of Heaven and Earth. So we can use Change to 'measure' our experience. It also contains the 'signs' of Heaven and the 'patterns' of Earth. That means it can offer us knowledge of ..."

"If Change can encompass so much, give so much and enable you to see so much, it is obvious that its spirit (shen) is not limited to your thinking and that the phenomenon of Change is much more than what happens to your body. Be aware. You are facing an extrememly potent and far-reaching power."

By studying and working with th Yi ching, you will enter into a deeper walk, a 'non-ordinary' reality, in a sense.
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Hi All,

There are all sorts of altered states and mystical aspects to the Yi Oracle. My own interaction with the Oracle started with a computer scientist classmate of mine showing me how to cast the Yi Oracle with the Wilhelm. However, I did not experience reading a book, my experience was of an actual Oracle Spirit speaking to me. So there are many varieties of altered states available, and like anything else Occult they all occur witin the individual subjectivity.

All the Best, :)

Frank
 

Tohpol

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
134
btw, I never noticed that it benefitted anyone to work themselves up into any kind of frenzy to hear what 'the spirit' is saying. You just have to be open to it and listen. Prepare ye ... as it were, become a ready soul.

with the Yi, change is best of a gradual nature, and perceiving it's moment is a continual process of actually being alert and vigilant more than of being out of your senses. IMO

Quite. It maybe that most trance channelling and associated rituals tend to attract those mucky-mucks at the "lowest vibration" for want of a better phrase. They may bring some juicy information with them pandering to the individual's needs but at a great cost in the short or long term. I think whenever "frenzy" and a loss of control is present with the intent on "inviting" a spirit to come hither and play...however sophisticated that maybe, I think it can cause all kinds of core problems.

The gradual approach does seem safer which is why the Yi is such a wonderful guide. The seeker can learn at his/her own pace without univited guests! lol

Topal
 

solun

visitor
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
265
Reaction score
3
well, I am not saying that there aren't non-ordinary realities associated with the Yi that can't be reached by any variety of ways .... And given the ritual and sacrificial components of divination and the Yi in antiquity as referenced in some of the commentaries, etc. , there are obviously 'ways' into it. But my guess is that time and perhaps well-cultivated experience with it will bring the most benefit. I can't pretend to be a Yi historian or the like, but I do know that as far back as much of the commentary was derived or created, it was intended to restore moral and social order after the warring states period. So .. the extra cultural aspects which would maybe shed light on the more 'spirit' related components of divination are there, particularly in regard to 'the ancestors' ...

again, Stephen Karcher writes about the shen and kuei, etc in the book I cited earlier, and it was somewhat revealing for me. It brings to bear the heaven and earth spirits, again the darkness and light business, which are present in the whole process of divining/interpreting.
But I experience the Yi as bieng more about the transformation/maintenenace/sustenance of character than I do about 'experience' in any sort of extra sensational sense. I think it's about sincerity and the 'work' of the spirit. To improve the condition of mankind

If we tentatively accept the hypothesis of the breakdown of the bicameral mind, ( gods no longer speak directly to us), with the resultant right / left brain division, (we are predominantly logical rather than creative), and our culture's over-emphasis on rational thought, then does this mean that it is almost futile to interpret the Yijing without enhancing our "spiritual ?" side. - 44bob

No, why would it necessarily 44bob? What is one person's logic may be another's creativity. As for gods speaking TO us, I think they are within us - but just inaudible because we aren't really willing to listen. The Yi and other wisdom literatures help create a dialogue with the 'higher' or 'spririt' motivated parts of us. Also, don't give 'our culture' so much credit for imposing on us. We need only pick up that which we are charged to engage with.

respectfully, solun
 
Last edited:

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
If we tentatively accept the hypothesis of the breakdown of the bicameral mind, ( gods no longer speak directly to us), with the resultant right / left brain division, (we are predominantly logical rather than creative), and our culture's over-emphasis on rational thought, then does this mean that it is almost futile to interpret the Yijing without enhancing our "spiritual ?" side. By this I mean not just occasional visualization, but perhaps cultivating trance states and encouraging non-ordinary reality, rather than endlessly manipulating hexagrams into complex patterns to derive precise meanings. Such a situation is probably close to early Chinese divination practices?

Hi 44Bob,

The book about the so-called breakdown of the bicameral mind has never had much heft in the scientific community. The fellow who came up with the notion of 'left-brain/right brain was well aware it had no actual basis in human brain function. It has become a shorthand for logical and artistic perspectives. The Divine still very much speaks to individuals cf George Fox and the still small voice which is the basis of Quaker theology.

Also cf. Einstein's remarks that the mysterious is the source of both scientific invention and artistic creation. Creativity and innovation are one mental process in whatever field one might consider. Perhaps Arthur Koestler's notion of bisociation would be more appropriate that invention of any kind arises from taking things from two contexts and making them a single context, such as taking the wine press and the wood block artwork and combining them into the Gutenberg printing press.

The process of the Yi oracle is its own mystical reality. However, if you like to combine it with any or all other spiritual practice that would be your own creative act. No use of the Yi oracle is in vain nor is it in vain or futile to try any system or process in interpretation. Better to say, perhaps incomprehensible to you.

Frank
 

44bob123

visitor
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
115
Reaction score
0
Found an article by Charles Foster, (reviewing The Magical I Ching), where he opts for direct contact with the Yijing rather than initially going to the text. This is similar to the point I was trying to make about using the creative side rather than crunching the numbers. Don't know how to do a hyperlink so this will have to suffice:
www.llewellyn.com/bookstore and go to archive articles and search for "astral divination with the i ching". I thought it might be worth the effort, although learning astral projection can take some time. Bob
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Free Psychic reading by just watching your mind choose 2 numbers 1-64

Hi 44bob,

The human mind is its own magical I Ching device. I put online a web page for those seeking a free psychic reading through the I Ching...: http://www.stars-n-dice.com/psychicreading.html
It works easiest if you have not memorized the hexagrams by their numbering in the King Wen Sequence, but if you are able to turn inward as if meditating and let yourself watch your mind space as you focus upon your question or your Need from the Yi Oracle you will see one and then the next number appear to form your oracle.

If you don't want to interpret it from text than you just have to get the line values that go to those numbers and notice which line places are Yang. Then which ones change to form the resultant and thus are moving lines. An entire Oracle Blank form and technique is available for this interpretation at: http://www.stars-n-dice.com/yioracle.html

Might be interesting step on your way to learning to astral project and other magic techniques. Good Luck, Bob :)

Frank
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
Enough altered we are already

Delphi pythoness spoke drunken. Maybe this altered state increased oracle productivity in a world where Oracles, with capital initial, were very redituable bussiness.

Plutarch was an important official in the hierarchy of Apollo's temple at Delphi for 30 years, and he played a notable part in the revival of the shrine in Trajanic and Hadrianic times (Flacelière 1943, 1987; Barrow 1967). A recent groundbreaking discovery made by an American multidisciplinary team provided evidence that he was indeed a reliable eyewitness and a most valuable ancient source on the Delphic Oracle. The “sweet smelling exhalation” that he mentioned really existed and was an emission of light hydrocarbon gases generated in the underlying strata of the bituminous limestone of Delphi (De Boer and Hale 2000; De Boer et al. 2001; Spiller et al. 2002).

From: JAIC online, Journal of the American Institute for Conservation.
at: http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic44-02-004.html

We may experiment or not, but people, say WE, already live in an altered sate. People is not more peaceful nor more wise than 4.000 years ago. People still trust in many fake gods. Even rationalists, for rationalism, like any other «ism» is not rational.

Of couse, we still have our own inner dæmons, of course, gods still speak at our ears. But we live in a noicy world and we cann´t always distinguish voices from noises.

Nobody´s perfect, but I believe that more important for getting results from de YI is to be a good person, no matters if we read the lines, the numbers, the texts, or have our own inspirational way.

When we no more support our own consciousness we get drunken, but drunkenness doesn´t make us better people nor wiser people, although maybe as diviners we only drunken can pronounce risky words in a world that doesn´t accept sincerity without taking vengeance.

Yours,

Charly
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
The special power is in the ordinary human mind not blinded by dogma...

Hi Charly,
Most sources note that the Oracle at Delphi involved sitting in fumes to go into a trance state. However, also note that there were others involved in the Oracle pronouncements that tended to adjust the results or interpretation to benefit the political and economic interests of the local power structure.

However, the notion of direct instruction from their gods through various techniques was an essential part of ancient Greek religion. The disastrous expedition to attempt to conquer Sicily (415) had many sad features (when they went wrong, they generally went terribly wrong). The investigation back in Athens involved discussion of what was the right interpretation of oracles which had been relied upon and led to terrible results. The investigators had no problem coming up with an alternative interpretation which would have been far better military advice.

Few folks actually rely on non-ordinary and certainly intoxicated states only. It is either one perspective (as in the ancient Persian or Confucius' advice of what was required to a thorough judgment) or it is more of a show with other folks controlling the result as 'designated driver.'

Of course, the book Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind is not a major source. The notion of left brain/right brain never believed by Bateman who originated the term and generally better understandings of the issue exist elsewhere.

I would maintain the point of the Yi Oracle, based upon the King Wen Sequence, is that it put an end to the need for any of that 'special influence' to get good advice from the Yi Oracle. Any means used to generate the Oracle works, even as I noted if you just let your mind open to two numbers 1-64, or cast pennies or anything else.

Getting the "right" Oracle hexagram and line is only a challenge for those hung up in medieval Scholastic dogma that only the Christian God knows the Cosmic situation and only reveals anything through Scripture interpreted by official Church priests.

The important 'non-ordinary reality' is an appreciation of symbolism and the principles of applying abstract symbols to specific personal situations.

Frank
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top