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Thread: Positive and Negative Hexagrams

  1. #11
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    Default How to find our role in the dramas represented by the Yi?

    Quote Originally Posted by maremaria View Post
    Some time ago I asked about a situation what should I expect and got 14.6, one of the most auspicious lines, one could say. But things didn’t go like the line said regarding that matter. If I take that line as a prediction of the outcome , then Yi was way off !!! But then I had to ask a question to myself. “Assuming that Yi never fails to give a right answer, then what 14.6 was about ?” and then I see it. Aha!!!

    Maremaria, I find really interesting that your experience with a positive hexagram (14.6) was not as you expected...
    When I got this line, I took it as telling me that thinks may improve if I don't "force thinks" if I'm submissive to what's happening even its hurtful... but also its important to note that the blessings maybe are not the ones you think or asking about...

    I'm curious... what it meant to you Maremaria?

    This thread also brings up again a question...

    With some hexagrams, knowing wich action to take seems difficult to me...

    Some examples:

    Think about a teacher that thinks that some pupil needs discipline, and gets this line:

    21.1

    His feet are fastened in the stocks,
    So that his toes disappear.
    No blame

    If a sentence is imposed the first time a man attempts to do wrong, the penalty is a mild one. Only the toes are put in the stocks. This prevents him from sinning further and thus he becomes free of blame. It is a warning to halt in time on the path of evil.
    So he thinks yeah, sure I need to talk to this boy so he behaves politely from now on...

    But later, the poor teacher gets "punished" with a reprimand from the director of the center, because the father of this boy, no matter how nasty.. is the son of one of the people that helps the most in getting funds for the college

    I know that maybe the answer is: depends on the question asked.... but that's not a warranty becuase the focus of the mind of the teacher was not focused about the outcome, he just was imagining himself reprimanding the boy, so he though good let's go ahead!!

    So heres the problem, with these 2 years I've been already using the Yi, I learnt that the Yis answers what's on my mind, no matter what is the written question, and sometimes is hard to know if my mental focus was sharp enough to be sure that the answer is a straight one...

    Another exaample yet:

    34.2

    Nine in the second place means:

    Perseverance brings good fortune.
    The premise here is that the gates to success are beginning to open. Resistance gives way and we forge ahead. This is the point at which, only too easily, we become the prey of exuberant self-confidence. This is why the oracle says that perseverance (i.e., perseverance in inner equilibrium, without excessive use of power) brings good fortune.
    But how to know if whatever you were thinking is matching the model of reality (as Jesed nicely explains sometimes...) How do you know that your action is balanced, or maybe the line in this case works as a confirmation.. ?

    As a matter of fact, it only says:

    Perseverance brings good fortune.
    So to get around this problem... I decide to ask always again, but with a diferent question, getting more information sometimes helps knowing if you are (as in the teacher example) if you are the punisher or the one about to be punished if you do what was on your mind...


    So, in a nutshell, lots of hexagrams can be positive or negative....


    Wrapping it all... this brings up a BIG question I don't really know the answer:


    There are any way of knowing if you are the line being the punished or the punisher one... A way of really finding out if the use of your own power is balanced or maybe you should make it balanced??

    Well, with 21.1 in some situations I don't know which way to go, what is the right interpretation...

    With 34.2 I always though that the action pictured in your mind is balanced, is the key for getting something, but here you reach a point where there's always the risk implied in using more forece than the need it, but its only a warning, something to bear on your mind while you go ahead with whatever youwere planning to do.

    I love this thread
    Last edited by zelion; November 3rd, 2009 at 05:50 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #12
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    This is a classic tale from China that scopes the oversimplification part of the problem

    The Daoist Farmer
    Adapted from the Huainanzi, circa 139 BCE

    A farmer named Sei Weng owned a beautiful mare which was praised far
    and wide. One day this wonderful horse disappeared. The people of his village
    offered sympathy to Sei Weng for his great misfortune. Sei Weng said simply,
    "What makes you think this is bad?"
    A few days later the lost mare returned, followed by a whole herd of wild
    horses, led by a beautiful wild stallion. The village congratulated Sei Weng for his
    great good fortune. He said, "What makes you think this is good?"
    Some time later, Sei Weng's only son, while riding the stallion, fell off and
    broke his leg. The village people once again expressed their sympathy at Sei
    Weng's misfortune. Sei Weng again said, "What makes you think this is bad?"
    Soon after, a war broke out and all the young men of the village except Sei
    Weng's lame son were drafted and sent into a horrible battle. The village people
    were amazed as Sei Weng's good luck. But Sei Weng only replied, "What makes
    you think this is good?"


    Other parts of the problem are our infinite capacity for denial and our haste to see what we want to see. So we are well-advised to look at everything from at least two sides. This is partly why the Zhouyi text is loaded with so much irony, like chiding for weeding in 43.5 because the greens being weeded are so edible and easily grown.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to bradford For This Useful Post:

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  4. #13
    meng Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by zelion View Post

    So heres the problem, with these 2 years I've been already using the Yi, I learnt that the Yis answers what's on my mind, no matter what is the written question, and sometimes is hard to know if my mental focus was sharp enough to be sure that the answer is a straight one...
    I believe that's a keen observation, especially for being at it just two years.

    Sometimes it feels like a tug-o-war back and forth from my brain to my heart, and my objectivity and focus aren't pure. At such a times I 'clear the channels' with an open question, as though to say "Ok, Yi, tell me what I need to know, before I ask my specific question." Giving due attention, I'll then approach again with my specific question. However, sometimes the channel clearing also swept away my original question.

  5. #14
    maremaria Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by zelion View Post

    I'm curious... what it meant to you Maremaria?
    Hi Zelion,

    The question was about a contest I took part. It was organized by the writing school I was attending. Somehow, I was forced to take part, I felt I had to support that event. Anyway, I took part and because I like to win, I wanted to win. I had a good piece of work and I believed in that ( my teacher too). But, because of some strange rules, one could organize to win and this is what I really didn’t like. Winning through this way, was not fun.
    Getting that line, at first looked like a good outcome regarding the contest. That didn’t happened. But what Lise says in her 14.6 made much sense to me.

    Spiritual talents decide your value - not worldly accomplishments. They cause intangible blessing, spiritual blessing. Man's real rank in life is according to his spirit.


    I write mainly for my own pleasure . It makes me happy when other people find some of my work interesting but In the case of the contest, hmm, don’t know, felt like I would jeopardize what writing means for me if I played the game based on their rules. I choose mine. Not very high in the result’s rank but have no regrets about it. In a very personal level I think I won, so Yi was right and 14.6 was about something positive

    Maria

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    Hi Maremaria,

    I think that's true, LiSe's idea that our spiritual talents are the ones that really matter is'ts true...its another "layer" of meaning for this line and thus you will be blessed (in life / afterlive maybe?) according to your real rank...but maybe the question here is: You will eventually reach your real rank according to your good deeds, so in live... or maybe the blessings will be more after this game of life ends?

    Well, I may be wrong here, but my take is that if you get this line in some situations maybe literally mean help from heaven, universe... physically/emotionally positive

    But in other situations, maybe it could well simply mean that you are doing really good even if thinks don't go easy for you, that you will be rewarded in the end, but not necesarily here in this life... spiritually positive



    Quote Originally Posted by bradford View Post
    This is a classic tale from China that scopes the oversimplification part of the problem

    The Daoist Farmer
    Adapted from the Huainanzi, circa 139 BCE

    A farmer named Sei Weng owned a beautiful mare which was praised far
    and wide. One day this wonderful horse disappeared. The people of his village
    offered sympathy to Sei Weng for his great misfortune. Sei Weng said simply,
    "What makes you think this is bad?"
    A few days later the lost mare returned, followed by a whole herd of wild
    horses, led by a beautiful wild stallion. The village congratulated Sei Weng for his
    great good fortune. He said, "What makes you think this is good?"
    Some time later, Sei Weng's only son, while riding the stallion, fell off and
    broke his leg. The village people once again expressed their sympathy at Sei
    Weng's misfortune. Sei Weng again said, "What makes you think this is bad?"
    Soon after, a war broke out and all the young men of the village except Sei
    Weng's lame son were drafted and sent into a horrible battle. The village people
    were amazed as Sei Weng's good luck. But Sei Weng only replied, "What makes
    you think this is good?"

    Hi Bradford,

    I knew this tale! I think its a smart way to show the people that sometimes bad things come, so really good things can come later... and also the disguise of some apparently happy things but can harm you in the long run...

    Think about superman actor... maybe he though that being able to have an ride a horse was good luck, but its was not.. although maybe it was in the very very long run, because if he didn't had the accident, maybe he had would become some superficial person type person, but because of the accident, maybe (its just an example...) he is now a lot more evolutioned spiritually so good spiritual luck ... but really bad luck for his life on earth!


    Quote Originally Posted by meng View Post
    I believe that's a keen observation, especially for being at it just two years.
    Thanks for that, but I think the Yi itself has something to do with that!

    Quote Originally Posted by meng View Post
    Sometimes it feels like a tug-o-war back and forth from my brain to my heart, and my objectivity and focus aren't pure. At such a times I 'clear the channels' with an open question, as though to say "Ok, Yi, tell me what I need to know, before I ask my specific question." Giving due attention, I'll then approach again with my specific question. However, sometimes the channel clearing also swept away my original question.
    Yes! Sometimes I do that, like tellin the Yi.. ok tell me what you feel you need to tell me, and later I will ask you again, except when I'm doing a "give a picture of the situation" type of question... or except when the question I'm about to ask is really a pressing matter, but at the same I'm feeling calmed, not freaking out or angry or with any strong emotion, because in that situations I get lots of 52... or either the answer is diffusse with lots of changing lines!!

    I started to think about that approach when one day, about one year ago, asking about something related to a ongoing proyect I was working on, I got 25.3 I could not understand because it could literally not be taken away at that point we already where, and it was for a company whose payments never involved any problems... But later in the day I had my intuition trying to tell me that it was not the reply to my question...

    Later in the same week I was told that somebody I was starting to date met somebody else by pure chance in a bussiness convention, and indeed was already with him!! but I wasn't at all worried when asking, I was not thinking in that possibility, because I had no clue...

    So the "cow" I was tethering was literally kidnapped by a bypasser!!!!

    I hate this negative line... But next time I get it, it will be really positive to be able to plan ahead the weekend without the girlfriend in mind


    When you experience that intelligence of the Oracle in action btw... You really feel connected to something, to that spiritual net where we are all connected, and that enables us to reach out and really try, and eventually speak to your... call it God, Universe, Infinite intelligence...

    knowing that, I think there's no room for thinking about the hexagrams being merely negative / positive. its just that some of them are closer to white(14.6), and some other hexagrams closer to black (29.6). How closer they are to the extreme good omen or bad one?

    Well IMHO it depends on the type of question /frame of mind, situation and the querent itself.. and of course it depends on the behaviour afterwards, since you can have a really positive omen, but spoil the situation afterwards, and even end up thinking that the hexagram you got was not positive, but it was!

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    I don't want to read it all again to find out what is meant by "trap" - just want to say that I have a tendency to trap myself by asking over and over again because I so desperately want to get a socalled positive hexagram and all I get is socalled negative ones. This seems to happen to me in particular with relationship questions. I also experience this the other way around, meaning that socalled negative hexagrams become so-to-speak positive and this seems to happen mainly when I am asking about myself. I wonder whether this happens to other people too in a similar way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradford View Post
    This is a classic tale from China that scopes the oversimplification part of the problem

    The Daoist Farmer
    Adapted from the Huainanzi, circa 139 BCE

    A farmer named Sei Weng owned a beautiful mare which was praised far
    and wide. One day this wonderful horse disappeared. The people of his village
    offered sympathy to Sei Weng for his great misfortune. Sei Weng said simply,
    "What makes you think this is bad?"
    A few days later the lost mare returned, followed by a whole herd of wild
    horses, led by a beautiful wild stallion. The village congratulated Sei Weng for his
    great good fortune. He said, "What makes you think this is good?"
    Some time later, Sei Weng's only son, while riding the stallion, fell off and
    broke his leg. The village people once again expressed their sympathy at Sei
    Weng's misfortune. Sei Weng again said, "What makes you think this is bad?"
    Soon after, a war broke out and all the young men of the village except Sei
    Weng's lame son were drafted and sent into a horrible battle. The village people
    were amazed as Sei Weng's good luck. But Sei Weng only replied, "What makes
    you think this is good?"


    Other parts of the problem are our infinite capacity for denial and our haste to see what we want to see. So we are well-advised to look at everything from at least two sides. This is partly why the Zhouyi text is loaded with so much irony, like chiding for weeding in 43.5 because the greens being weeded are so edible and easily grown.




    Hi Bradford,

    I knew this tale! I think its a smart way to show the people that sometimes bad things come, so really good things can come later... and also the disguise of some apparently happy things but can harm you in the long run...
    Where i differ in your take on the story is I don't think the point is bad things come in order that good things can come later...since the good things can as easily turn to 'bad' in this story. Its just that its the nature of life to always be in flux so what one moment seems fortunate, the next seems unfortunate and vice versa hence theres no use getting to hung up on 'fixing' good or bad fortune. You seem to be taking the story from the angle that some intelligence worked out in advance 'this bad thing must happen so that this good thing can happen'. Whilst that may be true, I don't know, I don't think its the Taoist perspective. I agree though its a great tale isn't it.

    Think about superman actor... maybe he though that being able to have an ride a horse was good luck, but its was not.. although maybe it was in the very very long run, because if he didn't had the accident, maybe he had would become some superficial person type person, but because of the accident, maybe (its just an example...) he is now a lot more evolutioned spiritually so good spiritual luck ... but really bad luck for his life on earth!
    Maybe, I guess we'll never know why, if there is a why, for the superman actors accident



    I started to think about that approach when one day, about one year ago, asking about something related to a ongoing proyect I was working on, I got 25.3 I could not understand because it could literally not be taken away at that point we already where, and it was for a company whose payments never involved any problems... But later in the day I had my intuition trying to tell me that it was not the reply to my question...

    Later in the same week I was told that somebody I was starting to date met somebody else by pure chance in a bussiness convention, and indeed was already with him!! but I wasn't at all worried when asking, I was not thinking in that possibility, because I had no clue...

    So the "cow" I was tethering was literally kidnapped by a bypasser!!!!

    I hate this negative line... But next time I get it, it will be really positive to be able to plan ahead the weekend without the girlfriend in mind
    yes for me 25.3 invariably turns out rather well..it all depends if you are in the postion of the farmer or the passer by. it may be undeserved misfortune and can equally be undeserved good fortune via someone elses misfortune. My 25.3 example is needing a place to live urgently and a friend calling to say his friend, a landlord, due to his house being trashed by robbers (tennants) urgently needed new tennants..his misfortune providing our good fortune at finding a place to live



    knowing that, I think there's no room for thinking about the hexagrams being merely negative / positive. its just that some of them are closer to white(14.6), and some other hexagrams closer to black (29.6). How closer they are to the extreme good omen or bad one?

    Well IMHO it depends on the type of question /frame of mind, situation and the querent itself.. and of course it depends on the behaviour afterwards, since you can have a really positive omen, but spoil the situation afterwards, and even end up thinking that the hexagram you got was not positive, but it was!
    Even 29.6 isn't giving you bad fortune, just telling you if you get into the mess, whatever it is, you are likley going to have to live with it/put up with it for the duration, the period of the natural consequences of the event/action its referring to. Sometimes accepting that can be helpful i guess if its something unavoidable., but sure 29.6 is something one would prefer to avoid . But then supposing you are asking about a course of action you really don't want to take ..and you get 29.6 ? Could be a welcome 29.6 since its giving you more reason not to take that course of action
    Last edited by Trojina; August 22nd, 2010 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trojan View Post
    Even 29.6 isn't giving you bad fortune, just telling you if you get into the mess, whatever it is, you are likley going to have to live with it/put up with it for the duration, the period of the natural consequences of the event/action its referring to. Sometimes accepting that can be helpful i guess if its something unavoidable., but sure 29.6 is something one would prefer to avoid .
    Trials can also be an opportunity for growth.

    29.6
    Six at the top means:
    Bound with cords and ropes,
    Shut in between thorn-hedged prison walls:
    For three years one does not find the way.
    Misfortune.

    Prisons do not typically have walls of thorns. Because 29 is pit (burial of the dead) and line 6 correlates to spirit, I think 29.6 refers to the obligatory mourning hut ritual. But even prison may be advantageous. Imprisonment led King Wen to the I Ching, as it did Takashima.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pocossin View Post
    Trials can also be an opportunity for growth.

    .
    They often may be but still be something most would prefer to avoid, growth or no growth. I see 29.6 as an opportunity for growth that probably didn't have to be quite so painful if the querant had been able to take another route to master that particular 'lesson'.

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    Four days ago the power supply for my computer failed. I guessed it was the charger. The replacement painfully cost three times what I expected to pay, but I had no choice. When I installed the new charger, lo and behold my once impaired computer began to work perfectly. I have had two years of trouble that technicians could not diagnose. Interference from the original charger was apparently the sole problem. I think I grew a bit in handling this. If I defined 29.6 in terms of personal experience I'd say it meant overlooking the obvious.

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