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thinking about 16.4 is it really as sweet as it sounds?

lucia

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When I look back through my journals at all the times I received 16.4 the vast majority of times it has been in the midst of something grim. At best it seems like a pat on the head and "there there" but nothing of any consequence has manifested.

Not even the gathering friends, never mind the enthusiastic source, have appeared and I have tried to fit it every which way. I try it as a source of enthusiasm for me and me being the source or the source in me. Whatever, bad scene happening......... dong 16.4 appears.

So, this is one of a few hexes I wrestle with but it bugs me more than most. I guess because it sounds so nice but is it just pumped up with 16's image weaving or what?

So, please folks let me know your thoughts and experiences because it may help me to get a better understanding of it and that would be great - it has appeared so much in my life the last year in particular.

Thanks.......

Lucia
 

fkegan

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Hi Lucia,

Your question about the divination meaning of the oracle 16.4 highlights the difference in the commentary between the philosophical analysis of the various lines in a hexagram and the divination implications of a particular moving line. In terms of the hexagram itself, the fourth line is the only Yang line and therefore marked as the 'ruling' line that determines the character and meaning of the hexagram. Therefore the commentary about line 4 is all about its best qualities and potential.

Objectively, this line has so very little: It is not in the position of the King (5th line), it is not correct (a Yang line in the 4th or even-numbered place) and the friends it gathers (the other 5 Yin lines) have little to bring to help other than their support. Another interpretation of this line judgment could be: Your enthusiasm is all you have going for you and what your friends share of your expression of your enthusiasm is all the objective support you can count upon--like a hairpin gathering hair into a hairdo. Done well your efforts can still pull off a great look.

As an Oracle, hex 16.4>>2 implies that all you have is focused upon the feelings in your heart and soul which are expressing and exhausting themselves leaving an open situation dependent upon the reaction of others and other things outside of you for what will develop next. Hexagram 16 is all about Enthusiasm or expressing your deep feelings to a receptive crowd. Another image is Singing. Your song, heartfelt and well done can achieve great things only if it moves your audience to share your enthusiasm and add their feelings in support of yours.

However, neither enthusiasm, singing or effective use of a hairpin to make a bold styling statement can be counted upon to achieve more than a clear expression of your own heart that could be appreciated by those receptive to your feelings. The great things can only be achieved by the entire group working together to follow you since you so clearly and eloquently expressed what all agreed was heartfelt and important to the group. However, it is the response of others that will determine the objective outcome.

Frank
 

lucia

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Hmm thanks Frank that's give me some food for thoght.

Your enthusiasm is all you have going for you and what your friends share of your expression of your enthusiasm is all the objective support you can count upon--like a hairpin gathering hair into a hairdo. Done well your efforts can still pull off a great look.

well, that is edging towards something in my brain and it has resonances with the mysterious 2.4 - the fanyao - and also the image weaving of 16. But for me this is such a slippery line. I have received it when I am very much alone and very much in the mierda in the past and it pops up amongst a string of "weighty hexes and lines" are forcing me to do some deep wising up. Then lo and behold like some shining little star bling there is 16.4 and I just look at my ching and say "are you having a laugh?"

Another consistent but much rarer appearance of the line is when I do have a little moment of inspiration and I run it past the ching for approval (yeah yeah sad but true sometimes...) and then I wonder am I enthusing myself or have I actually copped the energy of 16 in its best manifestation?

However, neither enthusiasm, singing or effective use of a hairpin to make a bold styling statement can be counted upon to achieve more than a clear expression of your own heart that could be appreciated by those receptive to your feelings. The great things can only be achieved by the entire group working together to follow you since you so clearly and eloquently expressed what all agreed was heartfelt and important to the group. However, it is the response of others that will determine the objective outcome.

yes I get the reciprocity aspect but that is why I question its deeper implications because it comes up for me sometimes when reciprocity is out of the question.

thanks though and I shall continue mulling.............

Lucia
 

lucia

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Another thought for Frank and anyone else who cares to help me feel this one out

If 16.4 is reciprocal - which makes sense both for the wording and the spirit of the line is it proposing activity suggesting that getting enthusiastic is the way to go? And why the sweet reassurance "Don't worry..........."

Is that like characters in search of an audience ? Brad says timing is an intrinsic part of it and he captures what I idealistically wish for the hex but then that's a bit slippery when the orchestra has gone AWOL or you are off on a solo voyage. more hmms.

This has bugged me for more than a year.

Thanks Lucia
 
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fkegan

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Hi Lucia,

I don't understand how hex 16 or 16.4 connects to "reciprocal" at all. The fan yao of 2.4 is clearer as a 'tied up sack' or all alone with nothing that can be done from that position.

The Oracle 16.4 is all about the need to find an audience that will listen to you and support you in your expression of your deep feelings and join you in your cause--and that does not yet exist in your situation. The line judgment notes that it is possible for this line to achieve great things --if the heartfelt expression is given clear and full voice rather than being caught up in fears, doubts or loneliness.

Is that like characters in search of an audience ? Brad says timing is an intrinsic part of it and he captures what I idealistically wish for the hex but then that's a bit slippery when the orchestra has gone AWOL or you are off on a solo voyage. more hmms.
This Oracle refers exactly to a concert solo and without any accompaniment. Not Seven Characters in Search of an Audience, but YOU alone needing to find friends who are moved by your heartfelt expression. Timing is of the essence---The timing of hex 16.4 is that you have deep feelings that could achieve great things but only if expressed without doubts to a supportive audience willing to be moved by that expression.

The situation you describe for yourself when you receive the oracle of 16.4 fits well to what I am trying to note for that oracle. That you interpret my remarks as you do describes well why you have remained mired in your bad situation for more than a year.

Posting this thread is a good way to express the more positive aspects of the Oracle 16.4. Though the full power of the Oracle and its timing will have to wait until your postings manage more of a response than just mine. Perhaps a move to Shared Readings would be an improvement as your question is not about the abstract meaning of the hexagram line, but your own personal issues as revealed by your Oracle.

Good Luck.

Frank
 

lucia

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The situation you describe for yourself when you receive the oracle of 16.4 fits well to what I am trying to note for that oracle. That you interpret my remarks as you do describes well why you have remained mired in your bad situation for more than a year.

No No sorry you misunderstand me I haven't been mired in any situation for a year... I said I had been thinking about the hex and noticing how it pops up in journals going back years - this isn't an interpretation question about anything in particular. It was about a year ago I realised that I it felt like a bar of soap when I thought about it. I rose the subject today because it came up over in the other forum and it reminded me. I said it had been bugging me for a year as in thinking about the hex not any situation in particular.

So its not about "personal issues" at all I am scratching for some depth to flesh it out in my thinking. ho hum..........

Meanwhile, my comments about reiprocity are referring to the fact that that is ultimately the energy generated by 16.4 - gathered firends etc and said audience because if not you might as well plug in your ipod and carry on flying solo. I also wasn't thinking of being in a "lonely situation" I was actually thinking of times it popped up when I was in foreign terrain and far from my people or where I had to definitely be low key.

Finally I said characters I wasn't obliquely referring to any plays or multiple people. I ain't trying to be clever I just wanted to bounce off some people in order to kick start my thinking.

I think you misunderstood my motives for posting.

But gracias all the same
L

PS I am curious to know people's experiences with this hex as well as theoretical insights it all helps.
 

bamboo

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I've gotten this line a number of times but I dont keep journals and I'm hard-pressed to remember what is was about...only that I haven't ever felt it was illogical or didnt pan out.

I dont think it is about needing to find an audience, more like "no fear, you are not alone (even if you may think you are)" ...maybe the orchestra is not in view, but this line seems perhaps to say that who you are at the moment/what you are struggling with is in resonance with others....

at moments when we are feeling the weight of a challenge and arduously working it through- and feeling as though we are flying solo- may be just the time when we are most magnetic and connected....personally, I think that working through a difficult time doesnt only have solitary benefit, but that we become a source of inspiration to others. even if only via our consciousness. Likeminded ,and perhaps similarly struggling, folks are benefitted.

I think it is quite sweet that the YI tells you at a moment like that that "you are not alone, Carry ON! you are loved, you are needed..." ...that sort of thing makes good sense to me. The yi is being your cheerleader, it sees the whole picture and it is letting you know the view from a higher perspective.
 
M

meng

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Hi Lucia,

In general, most of the time when in 16.4, I'm not central to the excitement of the time. In fact, I can be quite unenthusiastic about what's got others all worked up. If I'm called to a comb role, I'll gather indiscriminately. Otherwise, I'm just me, a single tooth of a comb.
 
M

meng

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Not being the center of enthusiasm, just being reliable enough to be there, like a comb, doing your part. :mischief:
 
M

meng

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Another consideration, the 4th line is that of minister to the king, a supportive role.
 

rodaki

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hi Lucia!

I didn't have much exprience with 16.4 until recently but lately it seems to be popping up all over the place(!) . . I really like what Bamboo said about it, it's very much how I have read it too and it's always a great consoling line to get . . although things feel disconnected, there's a reassurance that all those running in parallel due to their nature will keep on doing so even if they seem in disarray . .

Another thought I had about it comes from the image of it's fan yao with it's tied up reception . . it reminded me of what Ginnie wrote in her thread on 'Shared Readings' about putting people in boxes, maybe in 16.4 the way that things connect and are interwoven becomes evident . . it's like getting a blueprint of connections, and even if one feels left outside, it's still a reminder that the patterns are valid and in working condition . . i guess this is also the role of the assistant that Bruce mentioned . .
 

rodaki

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. . I wonder if we could draw an analogy for this line with Japanese rock gardens with their expanses of combed gravel . . here is one very well known, Ryoan-ji:

419686327_29055e6a51.jpg



Layout
A miniature dry landscape garden

There have been many attempts to explain the karesansui garden's layout. Some of these are:

* The gravel represents ocean and the rocks represent the islands of Japan
* The rocks represent a mother tiger with her cubs, swimming to a dragon
* The rocks form part of the kanji for heart or mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_rock_garden

Analysis
Stone garden in the karesansui style at Ryōan-ji.

In an article published by the science journal Nature, Gert van Tonder and Michael Lyons analyze the rock garden by generating a model of shape analysis (medial axis transformation) in early visual processing.

Using this model, they show that the empty space of the garden is implicitly structured, and is aligned with the temple's architecture. According to the researchers, one critical axis of symmetry passes close to the centre of the main hall, which is the traditionally preferred viewing point. In essence, viewing the placement of the stones from a sightline along this point brings a shape from nature (a dichotomously branched tree with a mean branch length decreasing monotonically from the trunk to the tertiary level) in relief.

The researchers propose that the implicit structure of the garden is designed to appeal to the viewers unconscious visual sensitivity to axial-symmetry skeletons of stimulus shapes. In support of their findings, they found that imposing a random perturbation of the locations of individual rock features destroyed the special characteristics.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryōan-ji
 

seethis

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My feeling is that 16.4 is encouraging me to trust myself with regard to timing a desired action. For example if I ask: "What happens when I hang on to this or that" I might get hexagram 28 which has too much yang in the middle but when I specify the same question as "how should I best handle my wish to hang on to this or that" I might get 16.4 which is telling me not to simply hang on but to time my action in relation to what is important to hang on to - so it is all about correct timing. In my opinion it recommends not to overcome the heavyness of too much yang in the middle to a lightness of one yang in the forth place as the minister to the 5th line who is in the place of ruler but who is persistenly ill and therefor reliquinshes his decision making power to his minister in place four. Interestingly, the minister knows exactly what to do and holds his position in balance while surrounded by Yin lines. His secret seems to be that he is yielding, hence he can time his action correctly and the whole hexagram turns into hexagram 2, the receptive, so enthusiasm is balanced nicely but I read somewhere that this would not work with females and water.
 

mythili

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one yang in the forth place as the minister to the 5th line who is in the place of ruler but who is persistenly ill and therefor reliquinshes his decision making power to his minister in place four. Interestingly, the minister knows exactly what to do and holds his position in balance while surrounded by Yin lines. His secret seems to be that he is yielding, hence he can time his action correctly and the whole hexagram turns into hexagram 2, the receptive, so enthusiasm is balanced nicely but I read somewhere that this would not work with females and water.

Nice interpretation! This is how 16.4 has worked out for me quite often. Once, I was the depressed 16.5 and my friends just called me out of the blue, which lifted my spirits. At other times I have been the person who has acted with correct timing to bring enthusiasm to someone else who wants something but doesnt feel he/she is in a position to accomplish it.
 

rodaki

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My feeling is that 16.4 is encouraging me to trust myself with regard to timing a desired action. (. .) so it is all about correct timing. In my opinion it recommends not to overcome the heavyness of too much yang in the middle to a lightness of one yang in the forth place as the minister to the 5th line who is in the place of ruler but who is persistenly ill and therefor reliquinshes his decision making power to his minister in place four. Interestingly, the minister knows exactly what to do and holds his position in balance while surrounded by Yin lines. His secret seems to be that he is yielding, hence he can time his action correctly and the whole hexagram turns into hexagram 2, the receptive, so enthusiasm is balanced nicely but I read somewhere that this would not work with females and water.


I really like that part too . . when the head is not up to judging the situation cause it's got one million other things to worry about, I will just follow my gut . . there, there is no doubt or worry because I 'm not going into the whole disagreement or conflict phase, I just do . . those who get what I do and why I can meet and have fun with and those who don't . . that's fine too
. . Explaining is just too cumbersome sometimes and why waste time and energy in it, especially at a time of 16's enthusiasm . . and those times I'm cornered into explaining I mostly regret afterwards

But anyways, I can't see why this wouldn't work with females and water, on the contrary, in the female place one yields and let's their energy rush into its place where it's needed in its own timing and way -then I can make up for my lost sleep and follow my heart . . I can't see anything wrong with this. I think I had written it before but I see this line positively either way . . something opens and yields even if you are in a foreign place . . hmm, I find this line always wakes up the optimist in me . .
 

so songs

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thanks

I really like that part too . . when the head is not up to judging the situation cause it's got one million other things to worry about, I will just follow my gut . . there, there is no doubt or worry because I 'm not going into the whole disagreement or conflict phase, I just do . . those who get what I do and why I can meet and have fun with and those who don't . . that's fine too
. . Explaining is just too cumbersome sometimes and why waste time and energy in it, especially at a time of 16's enthusiasm . . and those times I'm cornered into explaining I mostly regret afterwards

But anyways, I can't see why this wouldn't work with females and water, on the contrary, in the female place one yields and let's their energy rush into its place where it's needed in its own timing and way -then I can make up for my lost sleep and follow my heart . . I can't see anything wrong with this. I think I had written it before but I see this line positively either way . . something opens and yields even if you are in a foreign place . . hmm, I find this line always wakes up the optimist in me . .
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very,interesting postes
 
V

veavea

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I had this line today (interesting to note the thread is from 2011!!!!) when I asked about an ancestor I'd been researching and couldn't find any more info on her. I knew she'd worked as a dairy maid at a farm, then been in the workhouse and given birth to a child, but then she seemed to vanish. As far as I can gather, the child was brought up by her brother and his wife and raised as their own. I wondered if she'd died but there is no death record either.

I asked yi what happened to her and got 16.3.4>15. I don't get the sense that she died. Did she end up finding a new place to work as a serving girl, did she run away? Did she wish for something better and leave the child behind?
 

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