Value of Divination

Sparhawk · Feb 18, 2010

Link Alert!! (I mean, just in case it is missed and the title alone elicits unrelated comments...)

"The Value of Divination" by Erwin Hessle

Interesting dude, BTW.

pantherpanther · Feb 18, 2010

A reasoned, very readable and balanced essay. He might have said what he chose to say in 100 words and left it at that.

Sparhawk · Feb 18, 2010

Ah, the professor in you, used to correct papers, is talking. I hope you were able to pick those 100 words from above and avoided wasting time reading the whole thing.

pantherpanther · Feb 18, 2010

He doesn't actually reveal what he thinks, does he? He reviewed a lot of what has been said by others in an informative way that was quite readable but Western- oriented. A good general introduction , from that point of view.

Sparhawk · Feb 18, 2010

pantherpanther said:
that was quite readable but Western- oriented. A good general introduction , from that point of view.

Which is to be expected from a site and writer focused on Thelema...

Sigh... I typed a long reply but deleted it. Why bother, really. :bows:

pantherpanther · Feb 18, 2010

sparhawk said:
Which is to be expected from a site and writer focused on Thelema...

Sigh... I typed a long reply but deleted it. Why bother, really. :bows:

A predatory fish in a polluted pond.

Sparhawk · Feb 18, 2010

pantherpanther said:
A predatory fish in a polluted pond.

Please elaborate. Not sure of the contextual meaning of your statement.

fkegan · Feb 19, 2010

Hi Luis and Panther^2,

BTW Luis do you have a position on what is expected from your readers of this article so we can avoid your apparent wrath when not meeting those expectations.

I was struck most by how much techniques and supposed supernatural entities were essential to this article. I don't remember any such indoctrination in my early I Ching introduction. It was just try this it; is an interesting thing to do; here is how it works.

In general, one of my favorite articles, by M.Brooker a sociologist in Montreal in '68 noticed that all the definitions in the literature about superstition, magic, the occult, etc were based upon objections to non-Christian deities assumed involved. He came up with a functional definition of magic in terms of what folks DID not what they believed. The result was that he found Montreal and modern Western urban civilization was riddled with superstition and magic.

It is a tough article to read for all the stilted language and also its clear disdain for the subject matter. What do you like about it Luis?

Frank

pantherpanther · Feb 19, 2010

sparhawk said:
Please elaborate. Not sure of the contextual meaning of your statement.

I browsed through the writer's blog. He quotes and criticizes at great length on the diverse work of Thelema aficionados on the Internet. He fancies he is a humble keeper of the secrets and a wise teacher. The "Will to Power", I suppose.

Sparhawk · Feb 19, 2010

fkegan said:
BTW Luis do you have a position on what is expected from your readers of this article so we can avoid your apparent wrath when not meeting those expectations.

Frank, remind me again when this thread, and my exchange with Panther, had anything to do with you.

Alas, when I'm sharing links I don't necessarily have a position, public or otherwise, on its contents or an expectation of what other readers should make of them. And what is this "wrath" you are talking about?

It is a tough article to read for all the stilted language and also its clear disdain for the subject matter. What do you like about it Luis?

Fair enough. But I don't limit my sharing of links to things I "like" but to things and perspectives that make me appreciate the vast amount of nuances and opinions on given themes and issues. Once I know them, I either move on or dig deeper. The above is a curious perspective, from an interesting mind, but a "move on" for me. Mind you, my "move on" bin is full of them...

Sparhawk · Feb 19, 2010

pantherpanther said:
I browsed through the writer's blog. He quotes and criticizes at great length on the diverse work of Thelema aficionados on the Internet. He fancies he is a humble keeper of the secrets and a wise teacher. The "Will to Power", I suppose.

Oh, that was the context. I agree. A polluted pond it is.

fkegan · Feb 25, 2010

sparhawk said:
Frank, remind me again when this thread, and my exchange with Panther, had anything to do with you.

Alas, when I'm sharing links I don't necessarily have a position, public or otherwise, on its contents or an expectation of what other readers should make of them. And what is this "wrath" you are talking about?

Fair enough. But I don't limit my sharing of links to things I "like" but to things and perspectives that make me appreciate the vast amount of nuances and opinions on given themes and issues. Once I know them, I either move on or dig deeper. The above is a curious perspective, from an interesting mind, but a "move on" for me. Mind you, my "move on" bin is full of them...

Hi Luis,

Thank you for making your expectations clearer. As to when this thread included me is when you posted it under Divination News. Aren't private messages and Reading Circle Club for the exclusive stuff?

I feel like you treat me as an ex-wife nowadays. How very strange. I will ask the Tarot about it. The Yi is great for questions, but the Tarot has a special relationship spread and special cards like Death, the Tower, The Moon and the whole minor arcana to give a bite to its readings nothing else has... picante...

Frank

Trojina · Feb 25, 2010

fkegan said:
Hi Luis,

I feel like you treat me as an ex-wife nowadays. How very strange. I will ask the Tarot about it. The Yi is great for questions, but the Tarot has a special relationship spread and special cards like Death, the Tower, The Moon and the whole minor arcana to give a bite to its readings nothing else has... picante...

Frank

You are going to ask the tarot about Luis treating you as an ex wife ?

lucia · Feb 25, 2010

You are going to ask the tarot about Luis treating you as an ex wife ?

oh oh be careful there could be claims for maintenance......

however, you could go to couples counselling

Actually that sounds a bit 54 to me - coming second to the other woman.

Luis's harem.... tsk tsk............

L

lucia · Feb 25, 2010

In general, one of my favorite articles, by M.Brooker a sociologist in Montreal in '68 noticed that all the definitions in the literature about superstition, magic, the occult, etc were based upon objections to non-Christian deities assumed involved. He came up with a functional definition of magic in terms of what folks DID not what they believed. The result was that he found Montreal and modern Western urban civilization was riddled with superstition and magic.

Well, he didn't read very widely for sure.....

I thought functionalism died out with colonialism - they were after all closely related.

Meanwhile if you want a wonderful contemporary anthropological study of modern witchcraft in a western urban setting see

Pursuasions of the Witches Craft by Tanya Luhrman - it was her thesis at Cambridge but it is in book form too. It is an excellent study. And very "readable".

L

Sparhawk · Feb 25, 2010

lucia said:
Luis's harem.... tsk tsk............

L

Thanks, but no thanks. I rather be the only ugly one in any relationship I have. Two uglies do not make a pretty one.

fkegan · Feb 25, 2010

lucia said:
Well, he didn't read very widely for sure.....

I thought functionalism died out with colonialism - they were after all closely related.

Meanwhile if you want a wonderful contemporary anthropological study of modern witchcraft in a western urban setting see
Pursuasions of the Witches Craft by Tanya Luhrman - it was her thesis at Cambridge but it is in book form too. It is an excellent study. And very "readable".
L

Hi Lucia,

Yes, Brooker wrote in '68 of the last century. However his insights were about the superstitions of modern industrial societies like Canada and the U.S. by scientific types and managers. Not folks who called their work witchcraft but folks who thought they were being practical managers and technological types. Weighing bus transfers, carefully controlling for the relative humidity in the weight to ridership calculations although they only got good operational data from trained agents riding the buses and watching the streets.

Did Luhrman research computer folks and IT types as witchcraft?

Luis,

Thanks, but no thanks. I rather be the only ugly one in any relationship I have. Two uglies do not make a pretty one.

But in harems, it is not individual beauty but rather team play that is important and those not at eye level have no need to waste their resources on make up or being a pretty one.

More to the point, the Tarot used the Heirophant (V of the major arcana) to remind me I owed you an apology for not sufficiently respecting your literature expertize. I will not however be kissing your ring, Trojan can do that since she seems to want in to make a three-way.

In general, I find Hessle more witchcraft projection than insight into divination, to tie back to the original point of the thread. The value of divination is always in the eye of the beholder and if you are not yourself impressed by divination your remarks are only fluff and nonsense at best.

Frank

lucia · Mar 2, 2010

Did Luhrman research computer folks and IT types as witchcraft?

she did her fieldwork over a long time with a range of middle-class professionals from a variety of career backgrounds but including city bankers, IT folks, managers etc most of whom kept their interest and/or participation in witchcraft secret. She makes an interesting case for something she calls "interpretive drift" as she observes herself as participant observer as well as observing the subjects of her research - an interesting ethnography.

It was published in the early 90s

Lucia

charly · Mar 3, 2010

Luhrmann, Tanya Marie

From: http://www.stanford.edu/dept/anthropology/cgi-bin/web/?q=node/105

A little sample of her style:

When he [a psychoanalyst] speaks, his listeners draw conclusions not only about whether he is smart or stupid but about whether they would send a patient to him for analysis. This fact about psychoanalysis not unnaturally shapes the way analysts present their public papers.

The main gathering of the American Psychoanalytic Association occurs in New York the week before Christmas....It is always held at the Waldorf-Astoria, a hotel, like the profession itself, that is elegant and nostalgic for its past....The men wear professional jackets, sometimes a little scruffy. The women wear soft, textured knee-length suits in muted colors....Their clothes are intended to display their graciousness and their carefully calibrated tolerance for the unconventional. "Anthropologists," a psychoanalyst said to me with some disapproval, "can be flamboyant. Psychoanalysts are not allowed to be flamboyant." (p. 183)

From: Of Two Minds: The Growing Disorder in American Psychiatry. By T.M. Luhrmann.
Quoted at: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/158/6/983

I like anthropologists.

Ch.

...life can be translucent

Value of Divination

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

pantherpanther

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

pantherpanther

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

pantherpanther

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

fkegan

(deceased)

pantherpanther

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

fkegan

(deceased)

Trojina

Supporter

lucia

visitor

lucia

visitor

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...

fkegan

(deceased)

lucia

visitor

charly

visitor