Hi peter,

Good question but no good answer to it.
In my opinion, the sequence of the I Ching follows the course of Nature to paraphrase its philosophy of life. To me, it is not that systematically but very meaningful.
There is another sequence available and quite popular in China, so called the eight-womb sequence; the hexagrams are divided in eight groups and evolve in each group, one after another, according to their physical appearance, very systematically but it doesn’t involve the significance of the hexagram and its texts.
In my opinion, we can re-arrange the sequence but most likely we also have to re-name each hexagram and provide them with new texts.

Regards
Tuck

The sequence 41 – 45

After the drought has been dissolved, the villain dismissed and the crisis alleviated in the hexagram Xie (39). How to economize the use of resources from those below to those above (in the form of masculinity adding to femininity) is the subject of the hexagram Sun (40). In the era of Sun, those below enrich those above according to their capability and the necessity, and balance is the optimal status which need be reached; those above must cherish the enrichment from those below; actually the enrichment from those below is their contribution to the country.

In the hexagram Sun (40) those below diminish themselves so as to enrich those above, while in the hexagram Yi (41), those above diminish themselves to enrich those below. The king makes use of the very valuable tortoise (the tribute of those below in hex 40) to worship Heaven to bless his people. The enrichment must be sincerely & trustworthily carried out in a fair manner and must be a long term project for the better future instead of some political measures just to please the people.

Enrichment (40) continues ceaselessly and becomes brimful; it will definitely break and burst. Line 6 of the hexagram Yi (41) gets used to enrichment and becomes insatiably avaricious; no one will enrich it but rather attack it. Therefore the hexagram Guai (42) is granted after it, wherein the masculine unveils the evil behaviors of villains in public and is getting rid of the feminine.

The un-subdued feminine line of the hexagram Guai (43) comes down to position 1 and meets the masculine lines from their backside, signifying an unexpected meeting, the hexagram Guo (44). One feminine line challenging five masculine lines exhibits the vigor of the feminine, signaling a crisis is emerging.

In the hexagram Guo (44), the desire of the masculine line is to mate with the feminine line 1, while the duty of the masculine line is to subdue it in order suppress the crisis. In the era of Cui (55): to gather together, the feminine lines of the bottom trigram Kun are designated to gather around the masculine lines 4 and 5, respectively.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

The sequence 46 – 50

Those below responding to the call of those above and massing around those above in hexagram 45 create the rising of hexagram 46: Sheng. In the world of Sheng, the talented and able persons obtain the opportunity of developing upwards. Hence 45.5 must cultivate its virtue (元yuan: origination, i.e. the spring of goodness, and 永yong: be everlasting as well as 貞zhen: be persistent (in righteousness) like the king in the hexagram Bi (8): intimate interdependent relationship) to build its sincerity & trust in order to attract people around it (instead of 45.4), and sincerity & trust of 46.2 is the best policy to get promotion.

The rise of hexagram 46 must be done according to one’s status. The ceaseless rising will lead to the situation of hexagram 47: Kui: to be besieged, because so great their achievements make those above feel uneasy or insecure. In the era of the hexagram Kui, the ordinary people are besieged by daily life, for instance, lacking living essentials; but the gentleman is besieged when his aspiration can’t be carried out (so 47.4 takes its gold carriage to retreat to position 1).

After ceaselessly rising in hexagram 46, the hexagram Kun (47) is besieged at the heights, it needs to come down. While the marsh is drying out in the hexagram Kun (47) like the water of Kan beneath the marsh of Dui, people will drill a well to get water. Jing of hexagram 48 in Chinese signifies the well, the deepest place under the ground where people can reach. In the hexagram Jing the government is obligated to serve the people like the well inexhaustibly supplying water to all people without discrimination.

An ineffective government needs to be reformed like the old well of hexagram 48 requiring being reconditioned. After having successfully accomplished the reform or revolution in hexagram 49: Ge, a new regime is established and a new cauldron of the hexagram Ding (50) is cast. In the era of hexagram 50, the virtuous and able person will be recruited and the innovation will be carried out.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

The sequence 51 – 55

The Ding of hexagram 50 is the symbol of a regime and the main ritual utensil used at the sacrificial ceremony. The one in charge of worshiping with Ding is the eldest son, Zhen, which suggests inheritance. Thus the hexagram Zhen (51) steps onto the stage of the I Ching and takes charge of the sacrificial ceremony after the reform or revolution of Ge (hexagram 49) and the casting of Ding (50).

Instead of moving back and forth under thunders like 50.5 fighting for the succession, 50.6 should remain still, wait for the ending of Zhen (51) and the arrival of the next hexagram Gen: keeping still (52), wherein one can learn how to restrain one's thoughts from straying beyond one's position (quoted from Da Xiang Zhuang: the commentary on the image of the hexagram), as the force of the thunder had stricken 50.5 and the regime was already awarded to it.

Keeping still of Gen (52) can refer to the stability of a person, which is formed through the practice of self-cultivation and exhibited in the form of self-restraint. After Gen reaches an honest & reliable state, it can start to progress gradually and sequentially, which is the hexagram Jian (53).

In following the formal marriage procedure, step by step, a female (53. 2) gets married with a male (53.5) along the timeline in the hexagram Jian (53), and she becomes a wife. While the hexagram is presented in a reversed form, wherein the feminine 54.5 stays above and the masculine 54.2 below, like a female condescending and married to a male as the concubine, which is called Gui Mei (54): 歸gui: to return (to where it is destined to belong) 妹mei: the younger sister, i.e. Di Yi (the father of King Zhou) arranged for his younger sister to wed (Zhou Wen Wang as the concubine).

The younger sister of Gui Mei (54) pertaining to the marriage of her elder sister as a concubine must learn the philosophical willingness to be an assistant instead of the leader, which is that people must learn before they go to the next hexagram Feng (55): a great and abundant state, since only the king can attain it.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

The sequence 56 – 60

The grand and abundance state of Feng (55) is that which all people intend to achieve, but which will create menace to those above; therefore they will be banned like the sun being eclipsed. 55.5, the king and the host line of Feng, should condescend to brightness (i.e. those of the bottom trigram Li) in order to achieve and maintain the grand and abundant state by joint forces; so all people will be joyful since the grand and abundant state is attained and will be secured for a long time like the sun at midday. Otherwise the enlarged house of 55.6 will veil its household, like peeping into the room (and find out that) which is quiet with nobody inside; not to be seen for three years, (which is) ominous. The outcome of ‘not to be seen for three years’ is the same as that of the first line of hexagram Kun4: to be besieged (47). So it starts to wander on the journey of the hexagram Lu (56).

The journey fluctuates very unstably; the traveler loses everything at the end of the bottom trigram; so he becomes conceited and deviates from the way that a traveler should behave (i.e. to be tender in adversity of traveling abroad) while he reaches his destination, i.e. the end of Lu. 56.6 burns out its net and loses its ox; from that moment no one hears of him again, since it penetrates into the hexagram Xun (57) and retrieves humbleness and submissiveness, like the feminine line of the trigram Xun prostrated beneath the masculine lines.

Owing to the penetrating capability of the wind, it stealthily sneaks into the hexagram Xun (57) at position 1, gets through the internal reform and becomes the one who occupies the dominant power at position 5. However if 57.6 doesn’t establish its own regime, it will encounter talks of the hexagram Dui (58) with its opponents.

The sincerity and trust of 58.5, the king, of the hexagram Dui (58) have been eroded by 58.6 next to it while talks are held; therefore other people are leaving him. The king of the hexagram Huan (59) goes to the shrine and exhibits legitimacy in order to reunite the scattering people.

After 59.2 is delegated to stop scattering, and 59.5 rejects old malpractices and issues new measures, as well as opens the access to the public, people are reunited at the hexagram Huan (59), the reunification must be properly maintained. Therefore the hexagram Jie: to regulate and restrict (60), is granted, and bitter Jie cannot permit persistence.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

The sequence 61 – 64

The sweet restriction of Jie (60) is the one conforming to the principle of moderation and carried out with sincerity & trust (i.e. in a constant and reliable pattern) as 60.5 performs, while Zhong Fu (61) is signified as sincerity & trust (孚fu) incorporated with the principle of moderation (中zhong) like that which Zhong Fu constitutes: a humble heart (the feminine lines 3 and 4) remaining in the middle and reliability (the masculine lines 1 and 2, as well as lines 4 and 5) exhibiting externally.

Zhong Fu (61) exhibits sincerity & trust in a humble manner and it is an enlarged image of the trigram Li, while the trigram Kan is the sincerity & trust in a solid manner like a reliable heart in the middle, and Kan is the condensed image of the hexagram Xiao Guo: a little bit overstepping or overdoing (62), which is physically denominated according to its phenomenon of the feminine (the small one) exceeding (the masculine in quantity), but which virtually signifies a little bit overstepping the principle of moderation (i.e. 中zhong of Zhong Fu) in doing correction. On the other hand, Fu of Zhong Fu signifies incubation, while the next hexagram Xiao Guo possesses the image of a flying bird.

In the era of Xiao Guo, the excessive feminine isn’t suited to ascend but rather descend like a fledging bird avoiding being hurt while it practices flying, while the masculine line of Xiao Guo must keep a low profile in view of the feminine exceeding the masculine. After the masculine and the feminine know how to behave themselves, and after the I Ching passes over (過guo) 60 hexagrams (from Qian and Kun), finally the masculine and the feminine all obtain their right positions in the hexagram Ji Ji (63): completion.

The significance of the I Ching have been unfolded one hexagram after another; its mission is accomplished at the hexagram Ji Ji, which is a happy ending since all the lines of Ji Ji attain their right positions, amicably neighbor, and friendly correlate with, one another.
Ji Ji is the most stable and perfect state; however all fixed also signifies that there will be no further change or progress. The world won’t stop like this hereafter; therefore Wei Ji (not completed yet) forms after reshuffling, i.e. the feminine and the masculine inter-exchanging their positions, wherein all the lines turn out to be at the positions not suited to them but correlate with one another, which signifies a fresh restart since every line has to resume seeking its appropriate position, respectively, which is teeming with the requirements and possibilities of changes.
After many great rivers in the I Ching have been successfully crossed and the hexagram reaches Ji Ji, there is another great rivers crossing form Ji Ji to Wei Ji (not having crossed the river), and 64.6 is the other side of the river. 64.6 celebrates with wine for what it has achieved, however which must be done with sincerity & trust since the targeted mission (for which it crosses the river) still requires to be accomplished.
The hexagram of the I Ching nominally ends up with Wei Ji but the world of the I Ching continues circling.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

This a wonderful thread. Could it be posted somewhere so it doesn't get lost in the archives?
Either on it's own or tacked on the Memorizing The I Ching thread? In fact, now that I'm thinking about this, I wonder if we could have some sort of Golden Oldies file for threads like this so we can easily refer to them later?

Rosada

bradford said:

The meaningful half is 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 ... 61-62, 63-64
The random half is 2-3, 4-5, 6-7, 8-9 ... 60-61, 62-63.

Click to expand...

Hi Bradford,

Are you saying that the connection from odd to even numbers are the meaningful ones? Also, to anyone, is Xian Tian the same thing as the Sequence? I like what Tuck has shared.

Edit: I think I might get what Bradford said better, but need verification this is what he meant. Bare with me, but is it that hexagrams 1 and 2 for instance, they can be looked at together, yet 2 to 3 hasn't a link. 3 and 4 have a link, because they are opposites. So, down the line through all 64, if you put them in pairs, "1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 ... 61-62, 63-64" like Bradford suggests, they have meaning. And the rest is more random when looked at (like 2 to 3). ??

answeredquestions said:

Hi Bradford,

Are you saying that the connection from odd to even numbers are the meaningful ones? Also, to anyone, is Xian Tian the same thing as the Sequence? I like what Tuck has shared.

Edit: I think I might get what Bradford said better, but need verification this is what he meant. Bare with me, but is it that hexagrams 1 and 2 for instance, they can be looked at together, yet 2 to 3 hasn't a link. 3 and 4 have a link, because they are opposites. So, down the line through all 64, if you put them in pairs, "1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 ... 61-62, 63-64" like Bradford suggests, they have meaning. And the rest is more random when looked at (like 2 to 3). ??

Click to expand...

The pairs odd-even are structurally meaningful because they are either the inverse or the opposite of each other. The pairs even-odd are structurally unrelated, except as they may occur at random.

"The Sequence" is based on the "Hou Tian" or Later Heaven. This is either mathematically random or nobody has discovered an elegant algorithm for it.
The Xian Tuan is the Primal Heaven and it's simply the sequence of binary numbers from 00 to 63, discovered later in the Song Dynasty.

Thanks Bradford!

Figure 3 on p. 34 of my Vol. 2 has lines connecting the meaningful pairs of Gua on the Xian Tian grid. I should have done one for the other set to illustrate how random it is.

Oh Great! I am looking at them now.. very great for visually connecting the hexagrams.
As always I appreciate your thoroughness and yes, I would have liked to see the randomness of the Hou Tian grid.

As for simply looking at the sequences linearly instead of in a grid, that is what I was trying to see a pattern with. It might be silly, and the file is at work. I will post it tomorrow despite the silliness .

bradford said:

...
"The Sequence" is based on the "Hou Tian" or Later Heaven. This is either mathematically random or nobody has discovered an elegant algorithm for it.
...

Click to expand...

Hi, Brad:

I´ve read that many claimed to have the solution but I never had time or patience for following the reasonings. When you say «elegant algoritm» you mean that there are solutions but too complex?

Speaking on sequences, did you study the «de Bruijn» [or combinatory wheels] sequences? I believe that that sort of sequences are implicit in many commentaries describing how lines progress from the base to the summit, how the lower lines push and make fall the 6th. an so on.

But I didn´t find a report on historical sources neither old diagrams. What do you think about?


All the best,


Charly

This is nothing like a beautiful story but more like a math mess. I first went through the sequence and noted which lines must change to get to the next 'phase'. Then I categorized them ..... ... at least I was at work.

I suppose the experiment was to see, if there is a sequence how you would travel through it. I now see this sequence could be ANY sequence and done many different ways, but for my effort not to be wasted, I am posting it.

I might try a couple other experiments and will post those too.

Edit: I am sorry it is a jpg

A foolish way to spend one's time?
Possibly..
So, if anyone has any ideas similar but does not feel like taking the time or doesn't have the time to do it, let.me.know. I am serious.

for your reference

In my opinion, the sequence of Zhou Yi is not a physical evolvement of 64 hexagrams (i.e. the sequence of the hexagram) but rather an array according to the philosophy of its writer, which can be used to understand what Zhou Yi intends to tell us, and which can be also used to countercheck whether our paraphrase of Zhou Yi meets the philosophy of its writer. What I posted is my interpretation of Zhou Yi in following Ten Wings.

The sequence of Zhou Yi can be paraphrased differently according to your (I mean, everyone’s) understanding of Zhou Yi, and the sequence of the hexagram can be arranged according to your acquaintance or definition of each hexagram.

Independent from the common divination based on Zhou Yi, 焦jiag京jing易 (the Yi of 焦延壽 and 京房) developed their own method and invented the so-called 八ba宮gong (eight wombs). I made one at http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9549/58476775.png for your reference.

Regards
Tuck

The mysterious sequence! Why 30 in the first half and 34 in the second? Why do the hexagrams exist in inverted pairs for the most part. There are many patterns that a mathematician might try to use to sense the algorithm underlying the sequence, but none that have fully explained it.

Those that have compared the DNA sequence to the I Ching use lots of complex logic, but still no explanation for the sequence. I have seen it described as a trick. I seen it described as random. I think the answer is that no one alive today knows yet. Unriddling it would have profound implications for the race, but clearly we are not ready for that powerful understanding of nature yet!

lecubiste said:

The mysterious sequence! Why 30 in the first half and 34 in the second? Why do the hexagrams exist in inverted pairs for the most part.

Click to expand...

It's my considered opinion that concerning yourself with the "King Wen" sequence, or any part of it other that the set of meaningful pairs, is very useful if you need distraction, or have a lot of time to waste. It's good for years and years of this. It isn't as rewarding as masturbation, however.

lecubiste said:

but still no explanation for the sequence.

Click to expand...

You are mistaken. The basis of the sequence is obvious if you look at the hexagrams instead of the appended text. The meaning of a King Wen hexagram comes from its appearance. Hexagram 50 is a ding because it has the visual appearance of a ding. Hexagram 27 is a mouth because it has the visual appearance of a mouth. Hexagram 10 is 'treading' because it looks like a shoe. In every case the hexagram's visual appearance determines its meaning. If you have questions about details, PM me. This is Tuck's thread, and it would be improper for me to go into details here.

bradford said:

It's my considered opinion that concerning yourself with the "King Wen" sequence, or any part of it other that the set of meaningful pairs, is very useful if you need distraction, or have a lot of time to waste. It's good for years and years of this. It isn't as rewarding as masturbation, however.

Click to expand...

There are WANKERS & WANKERS:

The sin of Onan was not MASTUBATION but GREED. For the old law, which instituted the LEVIRATE DUTY, a childless widow would have been HELPLESS. Onan did not seek a solitary satisfaction, but TO DEPRIVE HIS BROTHER OF DESCENDANTS, retaining the estate for himself.

Perhaps the MATHEMATICIANS and ENGINEERS trying to CRACK THE SEQUENCE also seek to keep all the merit of the Changes estate. Are they, maybe, wankers?

I'm wondering if De Bruijn was also a wanker.


Yours,

Charly

lecubiste said:

The mysterious sequence! Why 30 in the first half and 34 in the second? Why do the hexagrams exist in inverted pairs for the most part. There are many patterns that a mathematician might try to use to sense the algorithm underlying the sequence, but none that have fully explained it.

Those that have compared the DNA sequence to the I Ching use lots of complex logic, but still no explanation for the sequence. I have seen it described as a trick. I seen it described as random. I think the answer is that no one alive today knows yet. Unriddling it would have profound implications for the race, but clearly we are not ready for that powerful understanding of nature yet!

Click to expand...

Hi, Lecubiste:

As far as I know the MYSTERY SEQUENCE is a special array published in the back cover of Wilhelm Baynes version, 3rd. edition.

I believe that inverted pairs are a consequence of the believeing that LUCK CHANGES and that after a good time a not so good follows.

Wich is a caution for all prognostication based on texts or on oral tradition.


The Mystery Sequence:


The sequence must be seen column by column from left to right. At each column for top to bottom.

All the best,


Charly

For those who have eyes to see, this tale explains the entire mystery of the King Wen sequence. One can then be set free to return to the Yi and study it for its meaning instead.

http://www.andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hersholt/TheEmperorsNewClothes_e.html

bradford said:

For those who have eyes to see, this tale explains the entire mystery of the King Wen sequence. One can then be set free to return to the Yi and study it for its meaning instead.

Click to expand...

Bradford, there is a poem inside there just waiting to come out....
Did you mean for this?

ehh hem..

For those who have the eyes to see,
This tale explains the mystery,
From the King Wen sequence,
One can then be free,
To return to the meaningful study of the Yi.

pocossin said:

Hexagram 50 is a ding because it has the visual appearance of a ding. Hexagram 27 is a mouth because it has the visual appearance of a mouth. Hexagram 10 is 'treading' because it looks like a shoe. In every case the hexagram's visual appearance determines its meaning.

Click to expand...

Tom, I thought it was backwards to this idea. Didn't the Oracle bone character come first which is a picture of (for example) the 'ding'?

Then later adding to the meaning, the hexagram structure was added which beautifully resembled the original 'meaning' and thereby makes it richer and more complex?

answeredquestions said:

Tom, I thought it was backwards to this idea. Didn't the Oracle bone character come first which is a picture of (for example) the 'ding'?

Then later adding to the meaning, the hexagram structure was added which beautifully resembled the original 'meaning' and thereby makes it richer and more complex?

Click to expand...

I don't understand the question, AQ. Are you asking, Did the text now appended to the hexagrams exists before there were hexagrams?

Sorry about the confusion Tom. I was trying to clear up things and became unclear instead.
I will boil it down.

In every case the hexagram's visual appearance determines its meaning

Click to expand...

.

Didn't the Oracle Bones determine it's meaning?

When the hexagrams were added, the 'meanings' already existed. Didn't the hexagram structure add to that beautiful matrix instead of define it?

answeredquestions said:

Didn't the Oracle Bones determine it's meaning?

Click to expand...

Hexagrams and texts like Lianshan and Guicang existed before the Zhouyi, but the Zhouyi is an original redefinition. The origin of the Zhouyi text is visual. For example, 27.1

You let your magic tortoise go,
And look at me with the corners of your mouth drooping.

"Magic tortoise" and "corners of your mouth" are visual aspects of hexagram 27.

Thanks Tom.
There is a lot of information to get from so many places in regards to the historical timeline of things. I am sure some parts are fuzzy, very broad, or even just plain missing too. History was never my strongpoint in education but the older I get the more I am drawn too it. Lately it has been on my mind very strong. Even with wanting to know very much, when I read any information regarding the history and timeline of it all, I get confused and am unable to put together all of the parts.

The more I understand the Yi and all that came before it, the Yijing, I Ching, Zhouyi, and even before that, the more protective I become of the parts I think I understand. This is wrong of me because I do not have anything to back it up. The timeline of things is becoming my main priority and focus to figure out.

So, these hexagrams and text from before the Zhouyi, were they before Oracle Bones? Is that even a valid and answerable question? Are they unrelated to the Yi?

pocossin said:

For example, 27.1

You let your magic tortoise go,
And look at me with the corners of your mouth drooping.

Click to expand...

Also, thanks for this. I am momentarily seeing this as advice to not let the origins of the Zhouyi slip away. I hear tortoise shell is crunchy and tasty if you sprinkle it with carvings.
CRUNCH!

answeredquestions said:

So, these hexagrams and text from before the Zhouyi, were they before Oracle Bones? Is that even a valid and answerable question? Are they unrelated to the Yi?

Click to expand...

The Zhouyi was a complete re-envisioning of divination, but its text drew and borrowed from a number of cultural sources. Some texts may have been pulled from the lore of oracle bones. Some were no doubt inspired by the pictures of the hexagrams, but consider that the broken lines had a different-looking notation than they do now: more like /\. This dimension I call Gua Xiang and there's a little bit about it on p, 21 of my Vol. 2. This was still only one of several that the authors used. And no dimension was used rigorously. Further, the authors do not appear to have used a lot of the dimensions that were invented later, like correctness or ruling lines.