I'm still trying to sort out this relationship. I would so appreciate your thoughts, oh wise ones. I've spent a million hours pouring thru old threads at this site and marvel at the insight I find.

Sunday I blew up at my friend/partner/ex-lover and stomped out. He blew up too. My parting shot as I opened the door was "you should be nicer to me," and his parting shot was, "No." Are we a couple of idiot teenagers or what? (We're both at the other end of the age spectrum .)

I posted a question here, Is Did It End? And got good insight that it is over if I want it to be. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?16859-58-5-6-to-38-Did-It-End

Been stewing for four days, woke up early dreaming of him at his best and most sincere, felt I could keep it going, but I don't know if that's true. So I asked, "What do I need to know about my relationship with J?"

44 unchanging. Read thru Hex 44 threads, learned a lot, but didn't find an exact match to my question.

At Lise's site, she writes, "Temptation is an interesting thing. It could bring ruin, or it might bring something life giving. Everyone needs challenges, to awaken the senses, in order to feel fully alive. And who knows what may manifest from it? What 44 represents is that which is powerfully attractive to the ego. It can be a person, an event or something you have unwittingly put into train, which takes off out of control and far beyond your plan."

The red words(!) are exactly what J said to me when we began. I don't think he means that any more. The "lovers" part has been over for months. But we have so much more between us including a book we're working on that I threatened to delete from my computer when we had that fight Sunday.

Lise continues, " When we build a structure around us to protect us from 'wrong' and 'bad', we can build a solid life. But what we lose then, is our vulnerability to be freely influenced. That means we also lose our creativity and our receptivity to life's impulses. Gou is dangerous and seductive, but it brings the birth of the heir."

The heir is of course the book. The structure is, I think, his really excellent management of his life, and of his patients. And of our lives together (he thinks), which really and truly ticks me off sometimes. I say things he doesn't understand because I'm creative and and see things from a perspective he just does not have. (very different backgrounds.) Then he becomes angry.

And/or the structure could be the structure of the book, which we've never fully agreed on. (Hexagram 18 was my answer to "can I do it alone?")

We're both adult children of alcoholics and have had tons of therapy. Still, it's possible I overreact to any hint of disinterest I think I see in him because I have deep fear of rejection. I get angry and cranky and sarcastic to show it "doesn't matter." . His issues are so similar, yet he resolves fear with rigidity, refusal to love, .

"Powerless over" is a phrase used in the 12 Steps.

So maybe I'm the powerful maiden he has to avoid now? Or maybe he's the seductive dangerous man I have to avoid? Or maybe there's some seductive illusion we've created that holds us in thrall and is terrible for one or both of us. This almost-book? Or maybe sublimated passion is driving both of us to distraction. If not distractions?

Or?

Hi poised,

You seem to have a clear idea of this picture, better than any of us could possibly have. You also are the right-brained creative one of the two, so I can use metaphor to express what I have to say about 44 in this situation.

It's my opinion that 44 is thick with potential meaning, good, bad, alluring and ugly. The local scholars do not agree on its symbolism. Bradford's emphasis is nearly 180 degrees from LiSe's, as LiSe's is from Wilhelm, yet Brad and Wilhelm don't agree either, as I read them. My opinion is, whether it is predominantly sexual, or has to do with "woman power", or if it has a creative potentiality, but it is not to be bonded to indefinitely, one thing I do see as a constant: it involves powerful feelings, which may well imply the woman, but is in no way exclusive to women. I usually get 44 when I have this build up of energy, this urge (an attribute of heaven/creative, btw) to exert my will, while missing the bigger picture or landscape of the matter. You've said it yourself, "Are we a couple of idiot teenagers or what?" But that seems to be the kind of energy that wants to push ahead, sometimes recklessly.

In the context of what you need to know about this situation, 44 feels like the conclusion you've already reached.

Hi poised,

i read your article and think i understand quite a few things you write about.
But one thing i don´t understand: What is really the question to you in this situation?
What do you really want to know?
Maybe it could help to find out more to this questions, regarding the ambiguity you talk about in the top of your post.
Quite interested in your reply, wish you a good night from over here.

Best regards, foic

Hi meng: Thanks for summing up our idiot teenager relationship. LOL that you chose that phrase from my long spiel to characterize the whole thing.

meng said:

It's my opinion that 44 is thick with potential meaning, good, bad, alluring and ugly. The local scholars do not agree on its symbolism. Bradford's emphasis is nearly 180 degrees from LiSe's,

Click to expand...

So you had to bring up Bradford. Tho I generally admire his work, his 44 caused the blood to rush to my feet. Sounds awfully much (tho Bradford denies it) like I'm the BAD WOMAN in J's life who coerced him into my witchy arms. While not denying, I will say that the wizard was in his element -- has major magnetism/magic.

Bradford also says, and this is true,not so threatening, glad you guided me to look again:

Beneath the sky is the wind...Dissipation...Rulers, accordingly, issue commands and decrees in all four directions
The wind blows through the trees and the forest below, while heaven sparkles above. The random-seeming weather, while loosely observing all compulsions to order, will muffle and baffle both the sounds and the silence, ... By the time they have reached the ends of the earth, the king’s clear commands are undone, and sound just like wind. Few of his orders will ever arrive unaltered, articulate or enunciate as he will. ... Order, pattern and purpose are somehow preserved. Some of this message might survive.

J is part American Indian, and we go to the hilltop every full moon for a prayer ceremony, just the two of us. We sprinkle sacred tobacco in the four directions and pray...originally for the title of this book....and that's where the magnets started to pull in opposite directions. He suggested very academic stuff, my job for years has to de-academify stuffy academics for the mainstream audience. He came up with a really stiff title, I saw/felt a clear, broad highway open to NY, where I have published in the past. J's material is the basis for this book, we can do well in the marketplace, but I know how to get us there and he does not. Few of his orders-words, articulate or enunciate as he will, will get into print without a major rewrite. And we have to use my title not his. Blond cowgirl might as well have shoved the chief off the cliff. Or is there another hexagram for that?

meng said:

opinion is, whether it is predominantly sexual, or has to do with "woman power", or if it has a creative potentiality, but it is not to be bonded to indefinitely, one thing I do see as a constant: it involves powerful feelings, which may well imply the woman, but is in no way exclusive to women. I usually get 44 when I have this build up of energy, this urge (an attribute of heaven/creative, btw) to exert my will, while missing the bigger picture or landscape of the matter. You've said it yourself, "Are we a couple of idiot teenagers or what?" But that seems to be the kind of energy that wants to push ahead, sometimes recklessly.

Click to expand...

So, meng, you nailed it...for the first nine months we were about sex, then he had surgery and health problems that brought that to an end. He seemed philosophical about it, I was such a good sport and very supportive, but went home and sobbed into my pillow every night for months. That tension may lurk to this day. I say nothing, but he probably knows it. I do exert my will when it comes to the book. The rest of the landscape is his. ..I've learned to ride motorcycles and shoot guns and go fishing with him, tho I'm more an opera/art gallery/ashram person. Underlying tug of war is inevitable. I NEED TO GET THIS BOOK DONE. The relationship has to find a track to get back on first. And I have to find a way to talk with him about it.

Thanks for bringing up all the right stuff, meng.

Hi foic,
Thanks for responding to this thread. The situation is at a crisis point. I could walk away or turn around, ask him to forgive my rotten temper, and try to find a track to get back on. With so many aspects of this relationship bouncing in my mind like balls in the air, I asked a broad question to provide a basis for thinking about the entire situation.

I prefer this approach for an overview of a complex situation..."what do I need to know about this relationship" brought my own mind to a state of thinking through the Big Picture. The ambiguity was the difference between various books and translations. If you read the exchange I had with meng on this thread, you'll see exactly what I mean.

Had I asked a dozen related questions, you can be sure I'd have a dozen contradictory answers and then where would I be? I may ask those in the near future. But one at a time, giving myself at least a day to research and ponder the answer, possibly ask for help here.

I'd be delighted to see any ideas you may have on this topic. I think it's quite possible that the right people will comment on threads here at clarity, to bring useful answers to the questioner. So please feel free to pile on.
Best wishes,
poised

BTW, meng, I just looked at your profile. My birthday is June 12. Not revealing the year tho.

poised said:

BTW, meng, I just looked at your profile. My birthday is June 12. Not revealing the year tho.

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Well that explains everything!

on your other post:
The tension in this whole situation and relationship seems palpable the more you reveal about it.

Does he demonstrate resentment toward your active involvement with this book, which I gather he is writing, and which you encourage a more lucid approach to? (did I gather that correctly?) If so, the trigrams of 44 can be fun and useful to play around with. For instance, if his creative role (upper trigram creative) is being swayed by a wiser (in certain ways) woman, Xun (lower trigram), there naturally ensues a power struggle. It's physics.

This dynamic is very common, and it's why artists have good managers, if they want their work to succeed in the eyes of someone besides their own. This naturally creates tense moments between the two. What complicates this situation is the emotional and sexual investments already made within this dynamic duo, though that particular entanglement is not uncommon in the creative business. An artist needs some fish swimming around in his or her head, but also someone to capture them and make the work known. It can be impossible to get through the artist's ego, unless he gets, um, motivated, because then it still comes from the creative. I see that as the prince who understands, and can call the shots. And so, man made contracts and put forth mandates, and the Lord said, Oy!

This is a midnight ramble, which sometimes are all mixed up. My apology if it is.

meng said:

I usually get 44 when I have this build up of energy, this urge (an attribute of heaven/creative, btw) to exert my will, while missing the bigger picture or landscape of the matter.

Click to expand...

This is exactly how it felt for me when I got 44 previously!
Thanks Meng!

poised said:

I asked a broad question to provide a basis for thinking about the entire situation.

Click to expand...

in terms of your question, that's a way that I sometimes find helpful too BUT (of course there had to be one of those!) I often find that then I need to a) either treat the answer as a sort of a wheel's hub, with its various meanings linking it to different aspects of the situations, or b) look at its very generic meaning (think of it as bait: if you're aiming for all sorts of different fish, then you need to use something that fits all tastes, so to speak).
Receiving a hexagram unchanged tends to intensify such ways of reading, so you might wanna keep a broad horizon in looking for what-meaning-fits-best (there is a strong chance that most of them will more-or-less apply in various degrees and ways)

Anacondas everywhere

good morning, meng. ...

yes, I've been thru the creative partnership tension before. Fun, exhausting, good results. This one is different, in that I am doing the writing. Come to think of it, I did the writing before, but with much more active partners.. My current guy expects me to do all of the writing, I expect him to give me his stuff in usable fashion. I think the real pull is that he's not familiar with the wonderful world of publishing. But then, who is anymore, with ethis and ethat and the Amazon anaconda grinding up it up. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Eunectes_murinus2.jpg

My best book writing job was for a hugely wealthy chairman of the board with umpteen degrees. Terrific material, but every word out of his mouth sounded like a legal brief. I wrote it in a much jazzier style, which is exactly what he hired me to do. We actually became good friends in the process and stayed in touch for years. Book published by the NY house he'd hoped for and got xlnt reviews. Come to think of it, I joined a counseling group halfway thru the project because I was so bored with it and so tired of listening to the dude. But the money was great.

Come to think of it, and I try not to, the current project I'm doing on a percentage basis...I get the big half, he gets the glory and the responsibility for promoting it. He's attractive and a powerful speaker on his topic. . So no shekels in the coffers yet. Grrrrrrrr, that makes me tense. However, I am also involved in the topic, it's important to me that J's approach to the problem gets out there...and I think it's a general audience book.

We could actually turn this into a situation comedy and maybe we should. With Anaconda as the god of books and everything else. Have you ever looked closely at Bezos?

One Fish Two Fish

meng said:

Well that explains everything!
An artist needs some fish swimming around in his or her head, but also someone to capture them and make the work known. It can be impossible to get through the artist's ego, unless he gets, um, motivated, because then it still comes from the creative. I see that as the prince who understands, and can call the shots. And so, man made contracts and put forth mandates, and the Lord said, Oy!.

Click to expand...

Oy vey, there you go again, meng. I'm the artist here,and I've told J he has to treat me like a princess. But he thinks in terms of squaw. Red fish, blue fish.

Meanwhile, the chief would just rather go fishing at the lake down the road. I'm invited but I don't do worms, eeeuuu, which is perhaps the way he feels about writing.

Indeed. We do not have a contract because I wanted to see how it would go with him. The princess needs to make contract and put forth mandates.

Thanks again for your amazing insights.

poised said:

Oy vey, there you go again, meng. I'm the artist here,and I've told J he has to treat me like a princess. But he thinks in terms of squaw. Red fish, blue fish.

Click to expand...

Dear poised,

I am sorry to be a bit blunt but Hex 44 does not bring Prince Charming. Rather it is a spiralling out of control situation. Referring to your original question to the Yi that generated Hex 44 this is what you need to know about this relationship. For anyone who wants things on your own terms this hexagram does not bode well.
You have mentioned in your thread other questions/readings you have had. Perhaps you should bring them to the Forum as well, as they might give you a wider perspective of the whole situation.

Hope that helps :bows:

Spiraling

mirian said:

I am sorry to be a bit blunt but Hex 44 does not bring Prince Charming. Rather it is a spiralling out of control situation. Referring to your original question to the Yi that generated Hex 44 this is what you need to know about this relationship. For anyone who wants things on your own terms this hexagram does not bode well.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your perspective, mirian, I appreciate a straightforward answer. Quite possibly the relationship is spiraling out of control and most assuredly, I'm spinning out of control...Maybe it's an estrogen thing. And he's no Prince Charming. LOL. Great looking but more of a macho guy, usually not my type, but here he is, tangled in the threads of my life. Have asked the I Ching about him many times, and never get a very encouraging answer. So there it is.

I told J to get lost three times within 18 months, but we always reconnected, his initiative, not mine. This time, he was as angry as I was, and I think that says a lot. And this time, I apologized-- by text this afternoon. He responded politely. But just. So we are having basic climate change, and I don't mean warming. Brrrrr.

At this point, I want to chill out too. Trying not to think about him, making plans with friends, seeing my daughter on Mother's Day...and Tuesday, long lost cousins from New Orleans I haven't seen since I was 16 and they were 5 and 10. I can't bring myself to reveal how very many years ago that was.

Hi poised,

Thanks for your clarification regarding which of you does what.

I'm the artist here,and I've told J he has to treat me like a princess. But he thinks in terms of squaw. Red fish, blue fish.

Click to expand...

Oooh, that's an interesting statement, when placed alongside 44. That's what I meant about the thickness of 44, so many possible implications; i.e. 'entitlement' is one of my tickle words for 44, a sense of feeling (emphasis on emotion) entitled to something. In this case, to be treated like a princess, and instead he treats you like a squaw. Grrrrr! That's feels very 44 to me.

So, is 44 about you, about him, or about the dynamic between you? I'm thinkin' all of the above. It's like an itch that's hard to reach, as fish don't have hands. But also remember, we're not s'posed to marry this dame or dom, this condition, just accomplish a goal together (bear an heir). Maybe save the champagne and kisses until the shekels start rollin' in. Gee, that too sounds 44ish. It's thick I tells ya.

Entitlement? Moi?

meng said:

'entitlement' is one of my tickle words for 44, a sense of feeling (emphasis on emotion) entitled to something. In this case, to be treated like a princess, and instead he treats you like a squaw. Grrrrr! That's feels very 44 to me....So, is 44 about you, about him, or about the dynamic between you? I'm thinkin' all of the above. It's like an itch that's hard to reach, as fish don't have hands.

Click to expand...

Hey meng, there you go again again. You're onto me like a wise gemini twin, I get away with nothing. Entitlement? Moi? Good to consider that this morning, a 47 morning indeed (emphasis on emotion). (I've moved on from 44, as J has taken off for the weekend to talk to the bears at Glacier.)

Now that you bring up the entitlement thingy, "what I need to know about this relationship" surely includes how difficult it has been for him. And to remember how hard he's tried. I've been a super support system for him, thru job crunches and surgery, etc. But perhaps minimize or overlook his efforts on my behalf. No wonder he's cranky.

And perhaps I should do a few hours on the couch about the effect entitlement/non-entitlement has had upon my life. And spilled over into his.

A good astrologer too: Sun, mars, venus, mercury,uranus, chiron in Gemini pretty much in conjunction in the first/twelfth houses clustered around the rising sign. All of which oppose J's sun on Sag/Cap cusp. Fire and Earth, exactly what I lack. He and I shared so much energy at first...ignition, lift-off, we lit up the sky. Thought, really, we could pull off a major book together. I need to consider deeply the 44 qualities you and other wizards have pointed out. That entitlement stuff may have been a huge contributor to our difficulties. Maybe I made him feel like I didn't need him. Powerful entitled woman. Sheesh. I don't feel that way, but may give off those vibes.

As for the fish, there's my two-fish Pisces moon square to the sun (etc), glooming up the works. (non-entitlement.) I'm probably certifiable. (Wise heads nodding up and down.)

I'm going to a great Adult Children of Alcoholics meeting this evening to continue sorting through powerful/powerless/entitled/non-entitled squirrel's nest.

Many thanks, meng

Getting Our Bear-ings

meng said:

But also remember, we're not s'posed to marry this dame or dom, this condition, just accomplish a goal together (bear an heir). Maybe save the champagne and kisses until the shekels start rollin' in. Gee, that too sounds 44ish. It's thick I tells ya.

Click to expand...

Just caught ..."bear an heir." And he's out there with the bears.

And the wheel turns

rodaki said:

Receiving a hexagram unchanged tends to intensify such ways of reading, so you might wanna keep a broad horizon in looking for what-meaning-fits-best (there is a strong chance that most of them will more-or-less apply in various degrees and ways)

Click to expand...

Hi Rodaki, sorry I didn't see this earlier. I like your wheel image very much. A kind of 3D wheel, with much to uncover as it tumbles along. 44 has been a very intense learning experience, bringing forth both laughter and tears. The process brought help to and from many directions. How many directions are there? 360 perhaps? Infinite?

"What do I need to know about this relationship" turned out to be a very good question, as others see things about it that I've missed altogether...and missing those things has been part of the problem. Humbling, really.

poised said:

Just caught ..."bear an heir." And he's out there with the bears.

Click to expand...

I've enjoyed a good share of chuckles from your posts too. I can understand why you're a writer.

The way you describe your chemistry when at its best, seems so typical of opposite personalities. Opposites attract like mad, when not entirely polarized.

Hi Poised,

I cannot add very much to the contributions above. But when 44UC comes up for me, its usually about looking at the dynamics of the relationship. I have found the following two resources useful in pondering that...

- http://fourthwaythe.tripod.com/id49.html
- And the book by Pia Mellody: Facing Love Addiction

I wish you well!

Selective forgetting

Hi yasmin:

Yes, love addiction is probably what I'm dealing with, thanks for reminding me. I actually own that book. How could I have forgotten?

I attended a workshop led by Pia Mellody years ago, thought her take on codependence was excellent as well. Unlike Melody Beaty, who listed hundreds, Pia Melody had five symptoms of codependence, four of which I forget but Operating In The Extreme seemed to apply. And apparently applies in this case as well.

I'm not very familiar with Carol Anthony, though I believe I once owned the Wellwood book. A quick read of the Anthony piece says to me that I need to set aside time to digest her ideas. "Indolence" seems to fit me more than my partner. Underground cables too. Etc.

At this moment, Coming to Meet is apropos, as he is driving home from bear country and we will meet tonight. I was just considering "what do we have left?" But that's another hexagram for another day.

Thanks again, yasmin, for your helpful ideas.