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44 unchanging

el_2

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Hi all

I recently asked the Yi a question and got 44 unchanging as an answer. The question was "What is an appealing inner characteristic of mine that I should let manifest in the present moment?" (or something along these lines - I'm trying to translate the question). I expected something more "spiritual" and, as I it was the first time I got this hex as an answer (I'm not an experienced user of the oracle), I got down to reading various forum threads about this hexagram. And it seems that it is highly contestable in some respects.

The way Wilhelm presents the "powerful maiden" in 44 is not appealing at all. What seems to be contestable from the discussions I've read so far is whether the influence/ woman described in the hexagram is potentially destructive, something or someone not to be joined with. I'm thinking that the answer describes an (apparent I would think) characteristic of mine -I do have a lot of "yang" qualities, which I manifest especially at my work, am independent etc. etc. But, if 44 describes a promiscuous woman who is a dangerous influence etc. - well, I'm not overly promiscuous and certainly not when in a relationship. Plus, I don't like to control other people -as much as I hate other people controlling me. So I would say that Wilhelm's take on this hexagram is limited and unnecessarily negative.

Perhaps there's something I'm not getting about the answer to my question due to my lack of knowledge of the Yi. But I thought I'd share this since the nature of the influence or the woman in 44 is such a contested topic. I don't claim that I know myself thoroughly, but I do know enough about myself to be able to reject Wilhelm's limited view on this - even though most of the times he makes a lot of sense even with the wording he uses (I use the W/B translation).

Perhaps I should have posted this in the "Exploring Divination" section. I'm not sure. But I'd be interested to read other people's views.

el_2
 

rosada

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44.

Coming to Meet

THE JUDGEMENT
COMING TO MEET. The maiden is powerful.
One should not marry such a maiden.

THE IMAGE
Under heaven, wind:
The image of coming to meet.
Thus does the prince act when disseminating his
commands
And proclaiming them to the four quarters.

I see this as the I Ching saying you have an ability to share your ideas (not your body!) with many people, with the cautionary note that in sharing your ideas you must not have any ulterior motives, not be trying to manipulate your listeners.
..

Interesting you received 44. As you say, you were looking for some little chit chat about your spiritual appeal for your friends in real life. I think instead the I Ching gave you something far more "in the present moment." We have been discussing 44 over in the Divination section and the "appealing inner characteristic" of yours to those of us right here and now online would be your ability to give us a real life demonstration of what 44 is all about.

For example, you note that that this post might have been more appropriate for the Divination section but you felt to post it over here instead. Great, now I know what 44 means when it says about disseminating commands to the four quarters of heaven.

You wanted some feedback about your appeal - ooh, danger, danger, 44 warns about trying to manipulate the way people respond to us. So now I know when I get 44 I'm being counseled to just speak my truth and let whoever wants to respond with their truth.

You got into a bit of a rant about Wilhelm when you admittedly didn't feel you really understood his message. This often happens with 44 situations, we get caught up expounding on our own feelings, the powerful inner seductress!

Anyway, please know I am saying these things not as a criticism, but to point out how you've given us a great piece of performance art here on the meaning of 44. Aren't you glad you volunteered? (Hmm, perhaps the true message of 44. Never volunteer!:rofl:)
 
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el_2

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Thank you Rosada

Your interpretation gave more depth to the answer I got. As I noted, I'm quite inexperienced with the oracle and this was the first time I got 44 as an answer. I read various forum threads about this hex and I found that it is a hot topic for conversation and thus not easy to interpret.

Apart from that, it's not that I wanted to manipulate anyone (at least not consciously) but I admit I wanted some affirmation from the Yi. On the other hand, as I tend to be somewhat secretive and want to keep a low profile (although I don't always manage because I tend to act impulsively at times especially when filled with rage), I thought I'd ask a question like this. And I know it applies to the present since things change all the time.

And I like Wilhelm. His writing is very evocative and helps me when I try to make sense of the answers. But there are some hexagrams or lines that I just don't get when I look them up at the W/B translation. I was thinking the other day that perhaps I should suggest that the more experienced users of the Yi stated where Wilhelm was spot on and where he might not have given a complete picture of the situation. But I guess that would be very complicated and perhaps a futile exercise.

Anyhow, thanks again. Now I know that the answer is not about letting my assertiveness show full force -I've been trying to temper my "yang" qualities in my outward behaviour because they certainly don't aid smooth relations with others. I'd rather keep a low profile and this is hard sometimes.

el_2
 

rosada

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Here's what Angelika Hoefler has to say in her book "I Ching" about 44:

The Person:
Your subtle and unusually well founded knowledge of human nature plus your not always unintentionally employed charm bring you together with the people that positively influence your life. You will be able to establish an extraordinarily successful enterprize and/or lead an extremely happy personal life.

The Situation:
It is unavoidable but healthy for you to be informed about the motives of a person close to you that you were not aware of before. This enables you to intervene helpfully and in a certain matter, to finally lay your cards on the table.

Advice:
Do not permit yourself to become involved in dubious transactions. The person whom you would trust in this case, would himself already have been deceived.
 

el_2

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I'm sorry I couldn't drop a word earlier but I was away for a couple of days so I didn't have access to a computer.

Thank you again Rosada.

I'm not aware of Angelika Hoefler's book. I'm getting more confused -how do people reach these conclusions about hexagrams? I'm not saying they're wrong; only that I'm relatively new to the Yi and obviously I can't expand or extrapolate like that.

el_2
 
M

meng

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el_2, I can understand your concern, confusion and possible frustration with your answer, especially with so many different perspectives of 44 shared here. But don't let it throw you. It's an opportunity for you to see how 44 actually plays out in your life, concerning your question. That's how most of us here learn, beyond just theory.

I remember once asking, during a particularly stagnant period of my life, what is it my life needs? Answer: 44. So much for 44 being an always negative hexagram, huh? The doctor prescribes it! Lest anyone think "Oh, you must have been in an agitated frame of mind when you did this reading; that's why you received 44." No, actually, my state of mind was calm and collected.

Perhaps my experience with this shares something akin to your own reading?
 
M

meng

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Let me also throw this out there, as an impulsive 44 kinda thing.

When life becomes too formulated, too neat and orderly, too safe, sterile and unproductive, 44 is precisely what is needed.
 

heylise

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""What is an appealing inner characteristic of mine that I should let manifest in the present moment?"

How about being that strong woman, who is able to make clear what she wants and thinks? Good 'seductive' qualities. She was probably the spouse of the emperor, with a strong character of her own, the one who was mentally and physically strong enough to secure the lineage and to assist the emperor as his consort. The female part which is indispensable for being a wise leader of a big country. Which can also be your own woman who assists your male qualities.

I don't see 44 as necessarily negative at all.

LiSe
 

heylise

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Thinking a bit more, maybe Yi is encouraging you to make more use of your female qualities. The male part is ok, can speak up and everything. But you need the yin along with it, so it will not be sharp or overbearing.
 

steve

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I think your writing skills are of a very high standard for a start
i think its a battle inside, am i good woman, am i a bad woman ,and do i really care
It must be hard to be woman it aint easy being a man

anyway people do things at the time, reflection is normal if you have lived
I just see a woman in this hexagram

coming to meet
like most of the "travelers may agree its not to a physical meeting"
but perhaps meeting yourself, i have learned this lesson mmmm

Steve
 

charly

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...
I don't see 44 as necessarily negative at all.
LiSe

LiSe:

Any H. could not be necessarily negative. Even more, all can be positive.

I believe that the girl of H.44 was highly calumniated by moralists and mysogens. Maybe H.44 expresses some issues related to women biological power, sexual superiority or matriarchal remnants.

Of course, it do'nt speak about not to marry a dominant girl. Dominant wives didn't exist in times of the YI?

Time ago I posted this in your thread on the Melon / Gourd.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=55750&postcount=5

Best regards,

Charly
 
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el_2

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Wow, so many people have shared what they think about it! Thank you.

I have to say that I don't see 44 as a negative hexagram. It's the first time I got it and there seem to be many negative connotations attached to it, especially re. the woman in the hexagram. I don't lack self-confidence to start wondering about myself now. So it is clear to me that the woman (influence, whatever) in 44 isn't necessarity negative or something to be avoided.

I liked what LiSe said about making more use of my female qualities. It cleared things up because I thought the Yi was telling me to make more use of my "masculine" (for lack of better word) qualities, be more assertive (than I already am) etc. But making more use of my female qualities makes more sense. It seems that I'd made the assumption that any "powerful woman" must have male qualities -yet there is a female way of being powerful or whatever. I would have said so consciously but subconsciously it seems I tended to think in terms of powerful=male. Interesting.
 
M

maremaria

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.

When life becomes too formulated, too neat and orderly, too safe, sterile and unproductive, 44 is precisely what is needed.

I like that. This is why I believe 44 is not always bad.
 

el_2

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el_2, I can understand your concern, confusion and possible frustration with your answer, especially with so many different perspectives of 44 shared here. But don't let it throw you. It's an opportunity for you to see how 44 actually plays out in your life, concerning your question. That's how most of us here learn, beyond just theory.

I remember once asking, during a particularly stagnant period of my life, what is it my life needs? Answer: 44. So much for 44 being an always negative hexagram, huh? The doctor prescribes it! Lest anyone think "Oh, you must have been in an agitated frame of mind when you did this reading; that's why you received 44." No, actually, my state of mind was calm and collected.

Perhaps my experience with this shares something akin to your own reading?

This suggestion makes me look at 44 in a way different to my initial attempt at interpretation. I tend to be highly-strung and edgy (esp at work or when I drive -not so much with my own people). I also tend to be feisty and impulsive -but I try to control these things. It is not good for me or for those around me. So initially I thought that that was what the answer was referring to. But perhaps it suggests that I manifest some of these qualities (impulsiveness is not such a bad thing after all), something like be more creatively energetic?

It also makes me think that being a newbie I perhaps feel that I should reach "accurate" interpretations, which in turn might make me miss some of the depth of the answer. I like questions like the one that prompted this thread because it can't get really ominous, they do not predict the future, so I can be more detached and confident and explore the Yi a bit more. Thank you all for helping me in this process. I love it.

el_2
 
M

meng

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Hi el_2,

It may be a combination of LiSe's enhancement of your feminine side ( to counterbalance the woman with lots of yang, i.e. 44), along with acknowledging the benefits of 44. What's important, imo, is that you do just as you are doing in introspecting all these possibilities. If a reading helps you to think through the matter in question more objectively and clearly, it's done its job.

Thanks for offering your thoughtful feedback. Not everyone does, and I (for one) find it interesting and helpful.
 

el_2

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And thank you all for replying because I wouldn't have reached these different if tentative conclusions without your input. I often find that I'm struggling with interpretation and when I browse answers other people have got in the forum, things get clearer. It's very illuminating. And, meng, you're right -we have to offer something in return, our own experiences with the hexagrams or whatever because the point is to enhance understanding for everyone involved.

I'm thinking that I should keep doing what I've done for a while, i.e. ask questions that are important to me (even in the very short term) when I can be emotionally detached because this way I might be able to avoid some of the confusion.

Thanks again.

el_2
 

el_2

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I just had an insight (I think).

Maybe the Yi was simply telling me "Just be yourself!" (Since at first sight I could see how the hex relates to me as a person, at least major parts of 44). Perhaps there are other ways to say that in the Yi but before I had the chance to ask "Which self of mine should I be?", it gave me the answer to that question too by giving me 44 as an answer.
 

Tony_L

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Your question was "What is an appealing inner characteristic of mine that I should let manifest in the present moment?" (or something along these lines - I'm trying to translate the question). I expected something more "spiritual" ...

Another approach is to look at the trigrams that make up the hexagram. Here the wind blows beneath the heavens. Wind is free to travel wherever it will and gains a perspective of life on earth that is rather broad and encompassing. Perhaps the Yi is advising you to avoid restricting yourself and to be open to new experience like the wind blowing freely across the earth and up to the heavens, encountering whatever it will. What spiritual lesson is to be learned from being fluid like the wind?

Tony
 

el_2

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Thank you Tony

At the present moment, I only give a cursory look at the trigrams. I think it will take some time for me to get a more in depth grasp on them. So this is very helpful as a learning process as well. I like the idea of being fluid like the wind -perhaps this is something to think about - what it means, how can I be like that. There is so much depth to the Yi. I'm very grateful that there are so many people here willing to guide us newbies towards a richer understanding. Plus, I've noticed that when it comes to the description of the way the wind influences things or people in the Book of Changes -well, I like what I read about it.

el_2
 

deusa

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hi
i asked a question about my ex-husband, who is getting near me again:
"what should be done about C"
and the answer was 44 -> 4

i am so new to this!
i coudln't quite understand.
i am a woman with a strong character, although i'm not always aware of it. i am maternal in a strong protective way.
i tend to take care of everything and everybody and still feel i am not enough. something i am working on currently.

my humbly simple interpretation was that we could even get nearer but probably it isn't a good ideia to get together again. and, the 4, i have not enough information so far to make any choice.
basically, live the present moment, woman!

do you agree?
thanks
 

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