41 - Death!

dancing flame · Sep 6, 2008

Hi,

This is an interesting one. A friend of mine is having a serious operation soon and is worried that things mightn't go well and she might die. As a result she's putting lots of things in order and resolving her past. I asked Yi, 'what will be the outcome of her operation?' and got 41 no changing lines.

I asked the same question a few months ago for another friend who'd gone into hospital following a rapid decline of cancer and got 41 with changing lines (can't remember which), all suggesting clearing the past and letting go, returning to the light. This friend died 2 days after that reading.

I'd like to believe that death for one doesn't mean death for the other and that 41 might just be saying that the operation is forcing my friend to confront her past and heal things, not necessarily that she will die.

Wondered what you thought about this?

Trojina · Sep 6, 2008

dancing flame said:
Hi,

This is an interesting one. A friend of mine is having a serious operation soon and is worried that things mightn't go well and she might die. As a result she's putting lots of things in order and resolving her past. I asked Yi, 'what will be the outcome of her operation?' and got 41 no changing lines.

I asked the same question a few months ago for another friend who'd gone into hospital following a rapid decline of cancer and got 41 with changing lines (can't remember which), all suggesting clearing the past and letting go, returning to the light. This friend died 2 days after that reading.

I'd like to believe that death for one doesn't mean death for the other and that 41 might just be saying that the operation is forcing my friend to confront her past and heal things, not necessarily that she will die.

Wondered what you thought about this?

I don't see anything in 41 to do with "forcing my friend to confront her past and deal with things" ? As for death seems different hexes come up and I've a feeling that is to do with the perspective of the soon to be bereaved rather than the nature of death in general or in particular though i can't say for sure. Some deaths may be very 23 for someone, others something else.

Anyhow FWIW why not simply accept that your friend may die and she may not, its out of your hands and what you want to happen doesn't really play a part in it. I think the 41 refers to your loss, not hers. I wouldn't like to speculate about this all I can say is be the best friend you can be to her now rather than trying to figure her future - and realise you are trying to figure it for your benefit not hers. Afterall what good does it do you if someone says yes 41 means she will die and what good does it do you if someone else tells you what you would like to hear...

dancing flame · Sep 6, 2008

HI Trojan,

Yes, I guess you're right. I was asking for me but also for my friend, as she's in a lot of fear at the moment and I wondered whether her fear might be warrented.

But reading Karcher again I can see that its speaking directly to me, counselling me to decrease involvement and look at my motivations for needing to know.

Of course I know you can't predict death, no on knows until the moment it happens, but I wondered whether 41 was more likely for this. Ultimately I ask these questions as a beginner who's still trying to understand the ways of Yi and how it speaks to us.

Thanks for your help, I'm clearer now on what it means.

willowfox · Sep 6, 2008

'what will be the outcome of her operation?' and got 41

The outcome of the surgery will be that whatever ails her will be removed/fixed successfully.

dancing flame · Sep 6, 2008

Thanks, good to know that.

irma · Sep 7, 2008

I find this post shocking! How can you speculate over whether your friend will die or not now?? That you ask about your own death ok, but for someone else! Shocking

I agree with Trojan that this has to do with you and I am glad that Willofox gives you a positive interpretation. All the best wishes to your friend with the hope of a speedy recovery!

hollis · Sep 7, 2008

dancing flame said:
Hi,

This is an interesting one. A friend of mine is having a serious operation soon and is worried that things mightn't go well and she might die. As a result she's putting lots of things in order and resolving her past. I asked Yi, 'what will be the outcome of her operation?' and got 41 no changing lines.

I asked the same question a few months ago for another friend who'd gone into hospital following a rapid decline of cancer and got 41 with changing lines (can't remember which), all suggesting clearing the past and letting go, returning to the light. This friend died 2 days after that reading.

I was in a similar situation not too long ago. I was going to have surgery, and someone absolutely had me convinced I may die. I actually had a hard time believing it, but I made up a will, gave away money, and actually wanted to die. finally, after all this, I asked the Yi if I was going to die, got 39 with some changing lines which clearly told me, sorry, no dice, you gotta stay on and help some people. I was bummed.

I think there is choice in your friend's situation. She can make a choice here. Is what 41 says to me. Her preperations will enable her to live longer.

Trojina · Sep 7, 2008

hollis said:
I think there is choice in your friend's situation. She can make a choice here. Is what 41 says to me. Her preperations will enable her to live longer.

How do you make that out ? How did Wfox make out this person would recover ? In what way would 'making preparations enable her to live longer '

Is making preparations some kind of magical antidote to death ? Why would you think she had a 'choice ' about dieing ?

Convincing someone they may not die is as presumptious as trying to convince them they will die unless you a fully qualified medical doctor that is....or God.

That people think its okay to pronounce on life and death without having any certainty is really beyond me and so is the one who invites public speculation about it.

Its pretty irresponsible to tell someone their friend is going to live when you can have absolutely no idea isn't it ?

Of course theres a fifty fifty chance wfox will be right ...big deal ! Of course I doubt dancing flame believes every word of this assuming she is not completely stupid, but then why ask in the first place if you are none the wiser.

hollis · Sep 7, 2008

trojan said:
How do you make that out ? How did Wfox make out this person would recover ? In what way would 'making preparations enable her to live longer ' Is making preparations some kind of magical antidote to death ? Why would you think she had a 'choice ' about dieing ?

Decrease does not under all circumstances mean something bad. Increase and
decrease come in their own time. What matters here is to understand the time and
not to try to cover up poverty with empty pretense. If a time of scanty resources
brings out an inner truth, one must not feel ashamed of simplicity. For simplicity is
then the very thing needed to provide inner strength for further undertakings.

trojan said:
Convincing someone they may not die is as presumptious as trying to convince them they will die unless you a fully qualified medical doctor that is....or God.

Who is convincing whom here. This is just a site to offer interpretations about sometimes very challenging questions , and, mores.

trojan said:
That people think its okay to pronounce on life and death without having any certainty is really beyond me and so is the one who invites public speculation about it.

So this should be completely off the realm of questioning?

trojan said:
Its pretty irresponsible to tell someone their friend is going to live when you can have absolutely no idea isn't it ?

well... yes, it is. but it can also be terrible to tell them they are going to die.

trojan said:
Of course theres a fifty fifty chance wfox will be right ...big deal ! Of course I doubt dancing flame believes every word of this assuming she is not completely stupid, but then why ask in the first place if you are none the wiser.

:bows:

meng · Sep 7, 2008

Interpreting Yi as an oracle, I read 41 as saying that your friend's capacities will be diminished. To what extent, it doesn't say.

The two small bowls offered may be your friend's acceptance and resulting calmness about going into the procedure.

Trojina · Sep 7, 2008

hollis said:
I was in a similar situation not too long ago. I was going to have surgery, and someone absolutely had me convinced I may die. I actually had a hard time believing it, but I made up a will, gave away money, and actually wanted to die. finally, after all this, I asked the Yi if I was going to die, got 39 with some changing lines which clearly told me, sorry, no dice, you gotta stay on and help some people. I was bummed.

.

In answer to your question 'who is convincing whom here' I was using the word 'convincing' only to reflect what you said about someone who had convinced you you would die as you say above. I don't know but unless that person was a doctor (and doctors don't generally try to convince one of death though they do advise one of it) then who on earth would try to convince anyone they were going to die and why on earth would you believe them ? The situation you describe above Hollis sounds absolutely bizarre .

And yes personally I don't think prognostications of life/ death should be given out on this forum. Of course I don't actually believe anyone can say with any degree of certainty 41 means either recovery or death, its a mere opinion. Granted our ideas about others answers are always mere opinions but when it comes to someone elses life/death i find it a bit sick.

Of course its not a question 'off limits'. Its a question I have asked of those near to me on occasion but I don't think its a question to be posted here and treated as casually as if the person were asking about their job or their boyfriends email by someone saying "ah yes he will get better" when they haven't got any reason whatsoever to make such a pronouncement

willowfox · Sep 7, 2008

trojan said:
How did Wfox make out this person would recover ?
Its pretty irresponsible to tell someone their friend is going to live when you can have absolutely no idea isn't it ?

Of course theres a fifty fifty chance wfox will be right ...big deal !

The answer is quite simple, as the question was about the outcome of the surgery.

It is not irresponsible to tell a person that they are going to live, you must always give the patient hope.

Yes it is a big f*****g deal Trojan! You on some f*****g witch hunt yet again with me?

Trojina · Sep 7, 2008

willowfox said:
The answer is quite simple, as the question was about the outcome of the surgery.

It is not irresponsible to tell a person that they are going to live, you must always give the patient hope.

Yes it is a big f*****g deal Trojan! You on some f*****g witch hunt yet again with me?

Are you incapable of rational thought that you see this as a 'witch hunt' rather than me objecting to you playing God over an outcome of someones surgery. It can hardly be a witch hunt as I address Hollis too. And why do you want to see it as a 'witch hunt' rather than me objecting to a specific action, your specific action - not you the person the action...you get it.

willowfox · Sep 7, 2008

Your sarcastic remarks know no limit do they?

I am not playing god at all, I was quite simply giving an answer to the question, and the answer is positive.

Sometimes I believe your real name to be Matthew Hopkins because you have been a pain to me since the beginning.

rosada · Sep 7, 2008

One of the wonderful things about the I Ching is it allows you to ask questions about things that you would never feel comfortable discussing even with your closest friends. If asking the I Ching about Death were inappropriate the I Ching would clearly say so. Instead, while it doesn't give a definitive yes or no response it has given some unsually apt advice for how to consider her current situation.

Trojina · Sep 7, 2008

rosada said:
One of the wonderful things about the I Ching is it allows you to ask questions about things that you would never feel comfortable discussing even with your closest friends. If asking the I Ching about Death were inappropriate the I Ching would clearly say so. Instead, while it doesn't give a definitive yes or no response it has given some unsually apt advice for how to consider her current situation.

I'm not saying the question or the Yis answers are innappropriate but that I think people here cannot pronounce the answer as meaning life or death for the querants friend .

I have never anywhere said asking about death was inappropriate. In fact I said i had asked such questions myself.

rosada · Sep 7, 2008

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. Yes, I quite agree it is inappropriate to say the I Ching says this or that will happen. I would like to see some of these strong statements prefaced with, "I interpret this to mean.." or something else to make it clear that the interpretation is strictly the readers's opinion.

willowfox · Sep 7, 2008

trojan said:
I'm not saying the question or the Yis answers are innappropriate but that I think people here cannot pronounce the answer as meaning life or death for the querants friend .

I assure you that the answer was pronounced with the utmost confidence Matthew. So you will be surprised perhaps at what "people" on this forum can indeed do when they set their mind to the task.

willowfox · Sep 7, 2008

Well, you would all make a great bunch of doctors with your pessimistic attitudes.

Oh! My opinion is that the patient will most certainly die, Mr. Snodgrass.

willowfox · Sep 7, 2008

I was throw off this forum for suggesting that I would fly down to Mexico and personally shoot a certain member of this forum if you care to remember correctly.

Hilary said that if I apologized to that person then all would be fine and I did if you remember correctly, there was no begging involved.

As for that nasty creep who confessed to murder, believe me he was guilty of something.

In actual fact I do behave, but when attacked I will most certainly retaliate, and now I don't care anymore about this site and certain nit picking people on it as I will be quite happy on the other site where the people are extremely nice and friendly. The people on here think their s*** don't smell.

willowfox · Sep 7, 2008

Why don't you all gang together like you did last time and get me throw off once and for all.

I am no longer interested in your silly pettiness anymore and I pronounce that with utter confidence.

See you around.

Trojina · Sep 7, 2008

willowfox said:
Why don't you all gang together like you did last time and get me throw off once and for all.

I am no longer interested in your silly pettiness anymore and I pronounce that with utter confidence.

See you around.

Well you are being a bit paranoid because if you reread the thread it is only me and 1 other who expressed reservations about declaring if this person will live or not. And what i said wasn't meant as a personal attack just to annoy you (or Hollis) but because I think it careless to make pronouncements on whether someone will live or die in readings here. I can see you may have thought that giving a positive answer would be helpful in encouraging optimism but I don't see it that way thats all and in the end wanted to make comment about it .

As far as I'm concerned I've given my opinion on something i felt quite strongly over. It isn't part of a campaign against you so I wish you wouldn't get so upset about it. Maybe you could just try seeing what I mean instead of thinking I'm saying these things because I want to hurt you or something.

Just forget it Wfox. I had an issue with some things you said not with you. I didn't want to upset you so chill out.

bamboo · Sep 7, 2008

who in the world is Matthew Hopkins??

dancing flame · Sep 8, 2008

Wow,

I'm just gone for a few days and I can't believe the amount of attention my query has gotten. Its an interesting dialogue I've raised and I'm amazed how the notion of death can bring on such strong reactions.

As I said, I'm a novice with Yi so questions I ask are usually to get a sense of what it responds to and the guidance it gives. As I become more familiar I'll be clearer in my queries.

My friend is the one who's freaking out about death so I asked the question to find out if her fears are warrented and if Yi gives definitive answers on this kind of thing.

Of course I'm not going to tell her that I even asked the question and what answer I got. Its just between me and Yi and all you kindly souls out there.

Her op is soon. Will let you know how it goes. Me, I'm breathing easily about the whole thing cause I'm quite fatalistic about death - when your time is up its up and there's nothing you can do so why freak out about it or try and hold someone back if they're ready to go. Whatever the outcome I'm accepting of it and trust that my friend's soul will guide her in whichever way is right.

irma · Sep 8, 2008

dancing flame said:
Wow,

I'm just gone for a few days and I can't believe the amount of attention my query has gotten. Its an interesting dialogue I've raised and I'm amazed how the notion of death can bring on such strong reactions.

As I said, I'm a novice with Yi so questions I ask are usually to get a sense of what it responds to and the guidance it gives. As I become more familiar I'll be clearer in my queries.

My friend is the one who's freaking out about death so I asked the question to find out if her fears are warrented and if Yi gives definitive answers on this kind of thing.

Of course I'm not going to tell her that I even asked the question and what answer I got. Its just between me and Yi and all you kindly souls out there.

Her op is soon. Will let you know how it goes. Me, I'm breathing easily about the whole thing cause I'm quite fatalistic about death - when your time is up its up and there's nothing you can do so why freak out about it or try and hold someone back if they're ready to go. Whatever the outcome I'm accepting of it and trust that my friend's soul will guide her in whichever way is right.

Dancingflame,
if you're so laid back regarding death why on earth do you have to ask the I Ching about it? And if you think that "when your time is up its up and there's nothing you can do so why freak out about it or try and hold someone back if they're ready to go. " what added value will the answer of I Ching give you? If I had a friend who secretly asked an oracle whether at a certain moment I will die or not, I think that would not help me at all and I think that on a vibrational level I will feel it. I think you need to deal with your own fear of death and let your friend recover at her own pace instead of intervening by asking silly questions. Why don't you ask about your own death instead of trying to figure out if your friend will die or not?

rodaki · Sep 8, 2008

ok, it's only natural that 'life or death' questions are deeply upsetting but I honestly see no reason in projecting our anxieties to someone else . . from my point of view here it only brings forth more room for anxiety . . this is a public forum after all where people should feel comfortable to express themselves freely under the only condition of not insulting others . . usually this is how communication can be achieved
We can never know the reverberations of our words, especially when we are talking through a screen (and believe me, it doesn't always shield others who are witnessing)

I often find myself wanting to react forcefully to posts -it's only natural we are humans not saints- but how about trying to deal with that gracefully? At the end of it all, there are some things better handled in silence -or at least in private . . Why on earth would someone want to insult another publicly remains beyond me

kind regards

rodaki

rosada · Sep 8, 2008

Dear Dancing Flame,

You asked, "What will be the outcome of her operation?" I certainly think this is a very reasonable question. Further, your concerns were reasonable also. You had received the identical answer before in a similar situation and therefore were concerned that the outcome this time might be the same as what the outcome had been then, which was not good. Wishing more imput you brought your concerns to us, your supportive friends at onlineclarity.

Then all hell broke loose.

Why, I wonder? I think it's curious that the hexagram itself warns that at this time one must remember, "Thus the superior man controls his anger and restrains his instincts."
Wilhelm says, "The mountain stands as the symbol of stubborn strength that can harden into anger. The lake is the symbol of unchecked gaiety." Is this "unchecked gaiety" of the lake what gave the impression discussing your friend's health was inappropriate? Anyway, I just think it's curious that the hexagram refers to a situation where people need to aware of the pitfalls of unchecked gaiety, stubbornness and the need to control anger - exactly what seems to have manifested here.

Best wishes for your friend's speedy recovery. You may get value from reading the thoughts posted about 41 in the Memorizing threads.

Personally, I think 41 is encouraging you to leave it all in God's hands and your prayers will be answered.

Thank you for bringing this question to us. Death is never an easy subject.
Rosada

bamboo · Sep 8, 2008

death is a sacred cow in the western culture. we don't take it in stride, as they do in certain other cultures.
perosnally, i feel the same as dancingflame expressed in her last post...it's not a sacrilege to ponder whether someone's time is up, or not...why should it be?! we are all on a death sentnce.
in 100 years all of us reading this will be dead!
some people only start to really take risks and enjoy life at middle age and we call it a midlife crisis. but it is really just feeling the presence of pending death..and i think its a good thing for any age.
holding death in a hush-hush mentality or looking at it as the most horrible thing that can ever happen are both unrealistic.

elz kubler ross said that death will be the nicest thing that will ever happen to you. Living is what's hard.

irma · Sep 9, 2008

If you go out on a public place like this forum with a question one must expect all kinds of answers and opinions. However, to consult in secrecy the soon coming death or not of a friend is stepping over this person's boundaries unless the person did ask for a reading regarding her health issue. It has absolutely nothing to do with "death being a sacred cow in the Western culture".

rosada · Sep 9, 2008

I don't think everyone agrees with you on that, Irma, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

41 - Death!

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