Hi everyone,
I have never had this happen before.
There is alot of mention on this site about the danger of asking about how other people feel...feelings being so transmutable.

I did that alot recently and suspected in the end that some of the answers I was getting were about my feelilngs not the other persons.
about 10 hours ago I found a great article about the danger of slipping so much into what a person wants that you began to approach the IC from a constructed "fantasy world" of sorts, which will obviously cause conflict or confusion between caster and the IC.

So I had stopped before (as I said last week) to ask about the feelings of others.

here is the article: http://www.biroco.com/yijing/avoid.htm

In order to make a decision and understand the situation better, I *do* need to be aware of another person's intention. In other words, I need to know what I am dealing with.

So I focused and ran through a dialog with the IC in my mind admitting to the things that I truly feel and think and want in the situation and asked:
I even said, "these things I want and I am aware that the answers you gave me most likely reflected my feelings and desires not the feelings of the other. Now I let go of my ego, please tell me the following:

What does X "want" to happen between us? Not what he feels or thinks, but what does he want

Answer: Unchanging 21

Why does he want to "cut through"? What does he want to accomplish by that?

Answer: Unchanging 05

Waiting? Waiting for what?

Answer: Unchanging 38

please clarify the meaning of 38 in this context

Answer: Unchanging 60

And finally: Instead of telling me about his agenda, feelings or desires. Please tell me what is at the core of all of his behaviour towards and with me from the beginning of our relationship until now.

Answer: Unchanging 8


Dear Friends,

Can you help me put this picture together now? Before you tell me to "take a break" just know that I already have.
Learning how to work with the IC to get a handle on changes in one's life is a process. Previously I approached understanding the situation by trying to find out what someone was feeling. Instead, I learned what I was really feeling. But what someone wants, what motivates a person, those are things than even or subconscious can pick up on.

I feel like the IC was giving me a concise picture finally of the other person and the situation. Not my feelings.

So will you help me understand this?

hugs,

LB

laylab said:

that last question is invalid though. I am only concerned with the situation as is between he and I. It was a mistake to even ask about his perspective of another situation that is probably too complicated for me to ask the IC..

so we can just ignore that one.

The first post is what matters

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Lol.. Laylab you crack me up. You are brimming over with anticipation here!
Well, can't blame you for that. Relationships are so goddamn difficult - at least we make them so.

Interesting that they were all unchanging...uncomplicated and to the point eh? Maybe that in itself is telling you something?

Have you sat down and really read through each of the judgments and images and taken the time to soak up the meanings? You might be surprised what you find rising up within you.

problem solving, opposition, waiting, limitations/guidelines, and complementarity /joining....Hmmmm.

Gotta go out

Take care,

Topal

Hi laylab

I only deal with hexagrams without changing lines. My english is poor and my readings are unconventional
but might in this special case be the inspiration You are looking for?

What does X "want" to happen between us?
Not what he feels or thinks, but what does he want?

21 Bite your teeth together (danish proverb)
Go for your longtermed goal despite actual problems.

Why does he want to "cut through"? What does he want to accomplish by that?

5 Wait for the right moment (danish proverb)
Doing the right things at the right moments is a very difficult task.

Waiting? Waiting for what?

38 There can't be two suns on the sky (danish proverb)
Try to avoid an either or situation by being flexible.

please clarify the meaning of 38 in this context

60 The silent agree (danish proverb)
Everyone has the right to express what they think.

And finally: Instead of telling me about his agenda, feelings or desires. Please tell me what is at the core of all of his behaviour towards and with me from the beginning of our relationship until now.

8 Equal kids are playing best (danish proverb)
If the difference between two is too big one will be dominating.

In order to make a decision and understand the situation better, I *do* need to be aware of another person's intention.

Click to expand...

My view is that Tao/I Ching 'knows' all of the factors in the situation. So all I need to do is to ask what ought I to be doing about the situation/relationship at hand and the action I take based on the oracle's reply will be proper, whether I 'know' the intentions of the other or not. I have been using the I Ching for over 35 years and have never asked about another's intentions. I have, however, used the oracle to examine my own intentions, whether they are in accord with the will of Heaven, for example. I think we can get caught up in interpretation difficulties when we try to decipher another's intention through the reply of the oracle. Better to ask something like 'given the other's intentions what ought I to be doing about it'. It takes a great deal of trust to proceed like this and at times seemingly in the dark. The oracle has never let me down in this respect. But I have let myself down on those occasions when I refused to embody the reply.

Best regards,

Ken Wanamaker

laylab said:

In order to make a decision and understand the situation better, I *do* need to be aware of another person's intention. In other words, I need to know what I am dealing with.

Click to expand...

When you say 'I need to know what I am dealing with', which 'I' in you is speaking? The conditioned ego 'I'? Your inner essential 'I'? Your freewill 'I'? I believe it's the conditioned ego 'I' that's demanding knowledge of the other person. Sure, the ego 'I' thinks it needs knowledge of the other person's feelings in order to succeed at its personal agenda, but your inner essential 'I' doesn't need to know that, and neither does your freewill 'I'. And of the three, I believe none of what your ego 'I' says it needs.

laylab said:

So I focused and ran through a dialog with the IC in my mind admitting to the things that I truly feel and think and want in the situation and asked:
I even said, "these things I want and I am aware that the answers you gave me most likely reflected my feelings and desires not the feelings of the other. Now I let go of my ego, please tell me the following:

What does X "want" to happen between us? Not what he feels or thinks, but what does he want

Click to expand...

Don't be silly; you can't let go of your ego - only a saint knows how to do that. All that happened was that you saw that the Yi was telling you not about him, but about you. And then you said, in effect: 'Okay, I see that, but answer my question about his feelings anyway.'

Your ego 'I' chose to ignore what the Yi was directing to your inner essential and freewill 'I's. Your ego 'I' chose to pursue its agenda.

Hex 21 says that he wants to overcome the problem that is preventing him from forming a relationship, so he is waiting, hex 5, to find a solution on how to overcome the obstacle that is preventing the union. Hex 38 says he is waiting to get your opposition out of the way, so that there can be some agreement to cooperate with one another. Hex 60 clarifies your opposition by saying that you want to place certain limitations on the relationship as to how far you are prepared to let it go. Hex 8 suggests that at the core he wants a relationship.

Thanks everyone...

Don't be silly; you can't let go of your ego - only a saint knows how to do that

Click to expand...

LOL, Dobro...well I am working on Sainthood since childhood but can't seem to attain it...I keep getting caught with my hand in the cookier jar...
When I was three years old I loved cherrry cheesecake..so did my uncle. My mother baked on for my uncle and we took it to his house as he and his wife were going to take care of me for the weekend.

I *really* wanted the cherries on that cheesecake. (remember,I was just three years old)

Late at night I woke up and went to the kitchen, got in the refridgerator and ate not just one ..but ALL of the cherries off the cake.

The next morning my uncle (who was only 25 at the time) woke up and found his cheesecake had been violated.

So he roused me from my sleep and led me by the hand gently to the kitchen and said "Little girl, look what happened to my cheesecake in the night! Do you know who did this?!" (with a look of unknowing perplexion on his face). I looked up at him, eyes wide open and shook my head "yes" and said, "yes I do! a mouse ate them!!"

And so Sainthood begins.

Now, IC my ego is a little mouse.

laylab said:

And so Sainthood begins.

Now, IC my ego is a little mouse.

Click to expand...

IC knows that our egos would always like to think so...

I like that story btw.

Topal

IC knows that our egos would always like to think so...

Click to expand...

hey, don't be fooled by the size of a little mouse...little mice can have voracious appetites! LOL

OK, but seriously. I am really trying to understand and distinguish between the times that the IC is telling me about myself and times when it is telling me about the situation from another perspective, i.e another "componant" of the situation. Which can be the other person, or a general dynamic.

Willowfox, with your interpretation (thank you by the way)

Hex 21 says that he wants to overcome the problem that is preventing him from forming a relationship, so he is waiting, hex 5, to find a solution on how to overcome the obstacle that is preventing the union. Hex 38 says he is waiting to get your opposition out of the way, so that there can be some agreement to cooperate with one another. Hex 60 clarifies your opposition by saying that you want to place certain limitations on the relationship as to how far you are prepared to let it go. Hex 8 suggests that at the core he wants a relationship.

Click to expand...

How can I know that the IC is telling me about his side of the situation and not mine?

laylab said:

hey, don't be fooled by the size of a little mouse...little mice can have voracious appetites! LOL

Click to expand...

topal said:

Click to expand...

I meant for cherries and pie only Topal

Is Bruce around? It would be good to get his take on the unchanging lines.

I agree with Dobro. It is no use at all to ask what he feels. I think that it is even dangerous to make decisions based on someone else's intentions. Your own intuition tells you if you can trust him. It does so all the time, but sometimes that voice is very faint. So you can ask Yi, and maybe the answer will make you hear the voice of your intuition.

If you can trust him, his intentions do not matter. Then you go on with him "for better or for worse". If you cannot trust him, his intentions do not matter either. Then you end it whatever his intentions are.

I can understand your insecurity. Making that inner voice loud and clear can be extremely difficult. Trust yourself. (I had "try to trust yourself", but it has nothing to do with trying, only with doing, so I deleted the "try")

LiSe

Hi laylab and everybody,

Unfortunately I can’t help you with the hexs because as I have said I am new to this. I hope that situation will change some day and I will be able to not only to “take” but also to “give”.
I am writing to you just to say that you are not the only one who “In order to make a decision and understand the situation better, I *do* need to be aware of another person's intention. In other words, I need to know what I am dealing with.” as you said. I just want to tell you that.

Also I want to tell you about the article you read recently. I thing that I am in the phase of “addictive questioning” and this article “found me” in the right time.!!!!!
The first thought came into my mind was “What a coincidence!!!! Or is this a coincidence????”

I realized that what I was walking in the wrong path and now is the time to slow down, see my maps use my compass and find my way.

Thank you laylab for this.
Maria

p.s
you might see I new post from me. There is a question I asked before reading the article and one after. Hope that this will be the last for a while. I plan to be more active in listening than asking.

try easier approach

When you use the I Ching or any other oracle to determine someone's feelings, attitudes, or mindset about something, you will often run into the problem of the oracle telling you some things about yourself in regard to that person, and telling you something about that person too, all in the same divination. In these situations it is difficult if not impossible to determine which is which when interpreting the hexagrams and moving lines. I would recommend to you a different approach. Just write down or say out loud the person's name that you want a reading about, then cast your coins. The Universe within you knows precisely at all times what you need to know, so it is not necessary in these situations to spell out the meaning of your divinatory questions.

I would also strongly encourage you to refrain from coming up with a list of "approved" and "disapproved" ways of using the I Ching. Feel free to ask any question you wish, and at any time. Frequent use of the I Ching helps you to grow and expand, but limiting the kinds of questions you ask because someone else said so only has the effect of reversing that. Cherish your freedom always to ask whatever you goddamn please.