Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
Let's give Micheal some credit. He knows all that about the basic Earlier and Later Heaven configurations. His question was regarding the "why" of the positional arrangement of the Later Heaven Bagua (KWS):
It is this that is explained in Cammann's "The Origin of the Trigram Circles in Ancient China", in a more clear and convincing way than in any other literature I've found so far in the West (and I've read a lot...) If he's wrong or not, who knows. I actually liked his conclusions.
The simple answer is that in the Former Heaven uses the 3 Yang Lines as Father Heaven and the 3 Yin Lines as Mother Earth. The Later Heaven uses Ch'ien as Sunshine [energy] and the 3 Yin lines of trigram Kun as the markings of Planet Earth topography (across from Ken mountain or high elevation) as a pair of symbols of structure compared to Ch'ien and Sun as energy of Sunshine and wind.
As for the Early and Late sequence, I understand the Early sequence, but have never understood the Later sequence, nor will I probably.
I am well trained in oriental psychology/philosophy, but I don’t get any intuitive sense for the Later sequence, no matter how much I try. Fancy philosophical twists are (I guess) wasted on me.
I am working on other projects, but I hope to one day get back to the I-Ching and come up with my own view or how it all works.
bold added.Maybe Frank is happy with his understanding of Ch'ien (Qian) as Sunshine and Kun as topographical elevation.... maybe Luis is content with the conclusions of Cammann (which I would love to hear a summary of, if possible)... but if anyone is interested in a numerological deconstruction of the Later Heaven Bagua, I have come to a conclusion which explains the trigram positions of Later Heaven. Just for fun, I also applied it to the Liebnitz binary number system, and my system of analysis works just as well in explaining the positions of the natural numbers from 0 to 7 when seen as a bagua or trigram wheel.
Hey Frank,
Sorry if my post was unclear... I'm testing the waters to see if anyone would be interested in a numerological approach to understanding the Later Heaven Bagua sequence... It seemed to me that you were quite happy with your own explanation, and Luis with Mr. Cammann's explanation, so if there is no interest, then I see no need to explain my conclusions to the group.
Frank, to clarify further, I haven't assigned the numbers from 0 to 7 to the trigrams in the Later Heaven Bagua sequence. What I was saying is that I analyzed both the Later Heaven Bagua Sequence *and* the Liebniz binary sequence using the same method, sort of as a cross-check, if you will.
OK, far more understandable. I would be interested in seeing both Luis' view of his buddy's explanation of the trigram sequence
Nah, since Michael Erlewine has not showed further interest in this thread, Luis and his ghostly "buddy" don't feel like it anymore...
hi getojack ... thanks for showing your calculationsit's clear that the structurally opposite trigrams are:
1) Thunder-Wind: 1-Forward/1-Back Opposites
2) Fire-Water: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites
3) Earth-Heaven: 2-Forward/2-Back Opposites
4) Lake-Mountain: 3-Forward/3-Back Opposites
If you look at those five trigrams from the outside of the circle, you can see:
Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water
Hi Luis,
You only play your game with Michael? What are the rest of us--stale empanadas? You are being too coy with that. Especially since Michael went away from this thread like a year ago, and when I tracked him down by email he had no interest in the subject anymore and looked to create his own system if and when he ever got around to it. Combined with his remarks that he felt unable to understand any explanation of the trigram sequence since they were outside his expectations, I think you are pinning your hopes on a phantom who is unlikely to respond to your serenades.
Frank
I've never claimed maturity (it gives me an exhilarating sense of youth and foolery) Perhaps, barring disease and accidents, when I hit my sixth decade, I'll settle down (something I expect to be like staring at Medusa and turning to stone believing I know all there's to know...)
The references are there for all to seek, approve or discard. In the meantime, I'll hire a Mariachi to serenade my departed buddy. If anything, I'll enjoy the music and the tequila.
I dismissed that dualistic view of the trigrams long ago, just trying to give you a chance to redeem yourself.
Redemption was never my forte...
It should be noted though that your explanation, a philosophical one and perhaps attractive to many, would not answer the initial question of the thread as it has no historical background.
Yet, when I try to take the commonly accepted meaning of each trigram and try to make it fit the particular phase in the Former Heaven sequence, they don’t all really fit.
Next: If I look at the Later Heaven Sequence, everything makes even less sense as far as the structure of the three lines of each trigram. I fail to understand how we can take the two archetype (Yin/Yang) trigrams Qian and Kun, and place then off-center from the two main directions south and north, winter solstice / summer solstice, and so on – whatever cycle we might want to look at. Placing Qian in the S.W. direction and Kun in the N.W. direction… AND… not even opposite one another confounds me.
Clearly, Michael is hung up on the later nonsense of the Confucian dualism and Imperial Civil Service exam study guides and thus unable to see the original insights of the Later Heaven.
You tip your hand, Luis as an academic type. You apparently think history is controlled by the grave robbers who bring artifacts to the Museum and the monkish types who worship in the cloistered stacks of the Library (unaware it was burned in Alexandria long ago).
So what is my historical background to my explanation--the oral history of these universal and global insights of 6th Century BCE available to all through many traditions. So it is by philosophical induction from Pythagoras (who also is known only by fragments and illustrations in other texts as the Later Heaven arrangement is) that I claim all the historical background required.
Your complaint is then reduced to the whine that you are still committed to the concrete musings of your articles and library publications without interest in opening up to the opportunities of the New timing nowadays.
Let me try a bit of old style logic for you and Michael (and ghost buddy makes three)...
1) After much study and long pondering it is impossible to find a cogent explanation for the Later Heaven Bagua in terms of the premises and assumptions held.
2) The Later Heaven Bagua is an important part of the I Ching Cannon (cf. Wilhelm Book II Discussion of the Trigrams).
3) Therefore, by logical deduction, the long held premises and assumptions must be insufficient or erroneous. Q.E. D.
When there are no readily available Establishment Academic Library volumes, it is generally considered important to go find new stuff and publish it. I have done that in my post. Its historical roots are my other work, such as my website, going back into the '70's ---all that is now historical background too.
So, you need to explain more fully why my historical background isn't really historical background just because it puts your historical background into perspective and exposes its flaws, bad assumptions and errors in high contrast? Though it would explain why you are driven to mariachi music and strong drink to maintain denial.
Hi getojack,
Ok, I get lost between "linear sequence" and trigrams in a circle.
I also get lost between 5 elements which in Chinese usage seems to be 4 perpendicular corners and the center and the organization of five equal independent things in a set.
And most of all, I get confused on why the notion of opposite patterns have to have special placement in the Later Heaven.
It is this that is explained in Cammann's "The Origin of the Trigram Circles in Ancient China", in a more clear and convincing way than in any other literature I've found so far in the West (and I've read a lot...) If he's wrong or not, who knows. I actually liked his conclusions.
hi getojack ... thanks for showing your calculations
A maybe foolish question: Where is my position? The 1-Forward/1-Back position looks to me like between the hexagrams Thunder and Wind, while the 2-Forward/2-Back position looks like either in Heaven or on Earth? Do your calculations function, if the structurally opposite trigrams are e.g.
1) Thunder-Wind: 1-Forward/7-Back Opposites
1a) Wind-Thunder: 7-Forward/1-Back Opposites
2) Earth-Heaven: 2-Forward/6-Back Opposites
2a) Heaven-Earth: 6-Forward/2-Back Opposites
3) Lake-Mountain: 3-Forward/5-Back Opposites
3a) Mountain-Lake: 5-Forward/3-Back Opposites
4) Fire-Water: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites
4a) Water-Fire: 4-Forward/4-Back Opposites
lienshan
Well, what is a circle other than a linear sequence that folds back on itself? If you are confused about something in particular, it would help if you could be more specific.
[Oh, now I understand, you mean the sequence along the circumference, measured in radians as it were--OK ]
These are really two separate things... 1) the hidden 5 in the center of the Later Heaven bagua, which can be seen by looking at the computations as I outlined... and 2) the 5 Elements Theory, which came later and was probably based on the reverence of the ancient Chinese for the number 5.
[ I wonder where the set of 5 things theory rules the 8 trigrams in order. The Ramsey number for 5 is a pentagram I believe. The Chinese seem to use 5 as 4 cardinal points and center. The quincunx pattern (dear to dice cubes and such) also puts one dot in the center with 4 around it. But given your premise your conclusions should follow. As you are able to also work your pattern with Leibniz binary numbers, you show you are doing a binary number interpretation of the Bagua.]
Because the Lo Shu numbering is inextricably tied to the trigrams. On the other hand, your point is well taken... remember that this analysis is only about 3 days old, so in the future, I expect that I will use the same analysis to look at patterns of inverted trigrams as well as patterns of opposite trigrams. Also, I plan to look at other bagua... including, of course, the Fu Xi bagua and others.
which seems in that rich middle slice in 2007 to have devolved into trigram dances--of which yours seems very elegant. I find it ironic since Earlewine is a major astrologer and I have in my mind from when I was wondering about this circle of trigrams back in the day that it seemed clearly based in the premises of the horoscope. The traditional directional explanations are horoscope and house positions.I have been trying to understand the origin, nature, and ordering of the eight trigrams, in particular as they appear in the Former and Later Heaven sequences.
hi sparhawk ... is there a specific reason why Cammann treat the trigram-sequence counterclockwise?
His explanation too works clockwise in the order
:!! Dui !!! Qian ::! Zhen !:! Li :!: Kan !!: Xun Kun !:: Gen
The clockwise order begins like the socalled "Lake-sequence" with :!! !!! Lake above Heaven (hex 43)
lienshan
No, I havn't, but I have a Michael Erlewine link illustrated by a BaGua with the trigram Mountain named Zheng and the trigram Thunder named Gen?Not sure what you're talking about. Do you refer to the Lo Shu and Ho Tu derived "crosses" that Cammann theorizes were used in the creation of the King Wen Sequence of the trigrams (Later Heaven shown in the posted picture)?? Of which, BTW, historically there were TWO as there was an earlier trigram sequence attributed to KW, somewhat similar to the one we accept.
Do you have the actual Cammann's BMFEA article?
No, I havn't, but I have a Michael Erlewine link illustrated by a BaGua with the trigram Mountain named Zheng and the trigram Thunder named Gen?
http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/The-Art-of-Feng-Shui/1752-The-Lo-Shu-Diagram-or-Houtian
I'm talking about the pattern of whole and broken lines when following the trigram order shown vertical.
hi sparhawkThanks for the link, although, the diagram designed by MErlewine is incorrect: you always read the received Hou Tian Tu (后天圖) from the inside (center) out. You'll notice that the East quadrant of that diagram in Erlewine's article has been switched to read from the outside in.
How many accepted "family" arrangements of the trigrams exist?The vertical arrangement in that diagram is only an ordering of the trigram family by the lower line showing an association to Qian and Kun. It is one of the accepted "family" arrangements of the trigrams.
The diagram of Michael Erlewine works, if he switch the Xun and Dui trigrams. The later Heaven arrangement can actually be read from the outside in without violating the two system structure of "1-2-3-4 steps".
(the complementary system starting with Zhen-Xun and the line system starting with Qian-Dui)
Schuyler Cammann counts three that are applicable to the Baguas (Fuxi and Wen Wang). There are others, such as the one in the diagram from Wikipedia. This diagram comes from:How many accepted "family" arrangements of the trigrams exist?
It's clear from this that the Later Heaven Bagua were representative of a number system consisting of 5 Elements. Those Five Elements were placed in the sequence so that trigrams on the extreme ends would be opposite trigrams... in other words, the part of the sequence that runs... Fire, Earth, Lake, Heaven, Water. If you look at those five trigrams from the outside of the circle, you can see: Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water... so there it is, the Five Elements in the Eight Trigrams with the Lo Shu numbers.... a system within a system within a system... in a nutshell.
Hello Jack, Thanks for explaining, but some remarks and questions.
You are mentioning Fire, Earth, Lake, Heaven, water. And then the circle, Fire, Earth, Wood, Heaven, Water. Do you mean Fire, Earth, Metal(Lake), Metal(heaven) , Water?
And which numbers do you mean with the Lo Shu numbers? water - 1, earth- 2, thunder- 3 etc
I don't understand the logic of your steps. Can you explain yourself further? Thanks
Frank(the other one)
hi sparhawk; thanks for your explanations Cammanns "family" order c looks like the Mawangdui Zhouyi:Schuyler Cammann counts three that are applicable to the Baguas (Fuxi and Wen Wang). There are others, such as the one in the diagram from Wikipedia.
Cammanns "family" order c looks like the Mawangdui Zhouyi:
Another question: Is the Shuo Kua trigram order not a "family" order or applicable to the Baguas?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).