Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Confusion over Hex 19 line 3

  1. #1

    Default Confusion over Hex 19 line 3

    Some translations have:

    Comfortable approach.
    Nothing that would further.
    If one is induced to grieve over it,
    One becomes free of blame.

    Others have:

    Comfortable approach.
    Nothing that would not further.
    If one is induced to grieve over it,
    One becomes free of blame.

    The second one is the one I have, and makes the most sense to me. But other sources, e.g., http://deoxy.org/iching , have it as "nothing that would further". How could that be a comfortable approach?

    Has anyone noticed this difference before?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northern Virginia, USA
    Posts
    104

    Default

    The unfavorable interpretation is correct. Comfortable (literally 'sweet' approach) is not appropriate to the time and place, so it is unprofitable, and only by refocusing your concern can you avoid trouble.

    The name of this hexagram has many variations. In the Han Dynasty Yi Jing on silk it is 'forest'. In some traditional commentaries the situation is a description of keening at a funeral (thus being a good pair with 18, which is associated with dealing with ancestral spirits). Rutt translates it as 'Keening'. But in all the original and translated texts I looked at the meaning of this line is 'nothing that benefits'.

    Liu Ming does not really translate the phrase, but the overall sense of his translation is useful:

    "Sufficient approach. Be wary. No misfortune.

    Do not harden your position or take things for granted. It is not yet the time for revolution. Hold back or withdraw like a mourner at the end of the funeral."

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to cjgait For This Useful Post:

    heylise (February 12th, 2012)

  4. #3

    Default

    This is interesting. Thanks.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 1970
    Location
    Oxfordshire, UK
    Posts
    8,819

    Default

    What Chris said - it's 'nothing that would further' or 'no direction is fruitful'. A 'non-starter', basically - the idea is, I think, just to recognise that in a neutral sort of way, maybe wish it had been as good as it promised to be, know it isn't, and move on.

    Incidentally, the name of the hexagram is used in the Liji to refer to presiding at a sacrifice - which goes well with hexagram 20, doesn't it?

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to hilary For This Useful Post:

    heylise (February 12th, 2012)

  7. #5
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    1,717

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by jfas View Post
    Some translations have:

    Comfortable approach.
    Nothing that would further.
    If one is induced to grieve over it,
    One becomes free of blame.

    Others have:

    Comfortable approach.
    Nothing that would not further.
    If one is induced to grieve over it,
    One becomes free of blame.

    The second one is the one I have, and makes the most sense to me. But other sources, e.g., http://deoxy.org/iching , have it as "nothing that would further". How could that be a comfortable approach?

    Has anyone noticed this difference before?
    Hi, Jfas:

    The 1rst version belongs to Wilhelm/Baynes, the second was maybe retouched by someone that had a better concept of the line, no without reason because the line ends NO WRONG / NO BLAME.

    I believe that it's not clear the unfavorable sense of the line. See the chinese received text:

    H.19:

    lin2 APPROACH is the name of the hex. and depicts A BENT MAN LINING GOODS (OFTEN WITH SHAPES OF MOUTHS) UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE SLANTED EYE OF DIVINITY (PROVIDENCE?), the sense of coming from a superior position. Maybe something related with the idea of MANDATE OF HEAVEN.

    19.3:

    gan1: tasty / luscious / delicious / sweet / willing / to enjoy / pleasant / pleasing / [W/B confortable]
    lin2: to face / to overlook /to approach / to arrive / to be about to / just before /

    wu2: without / not / no / avoid /[W/B nothing]
    you1: place /distant / far / adverbial prefix /
    li4: advantage / benefit / profit /{W/B further]

    ji4: already / since /
    you1: worried / concerned with / [W/B grieve over]
    zhi1: 's / him / her / it /

    wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
    jiu4: wrong / to blame / mistake

    A pretty literal translation would be:

    [A] WILLING APPROACH: NO FAR PROFITABLE.
    Approaching just for fun: not very profitable (or not too profitable).

    [IF] ALREADY CONCERNED WITH IT: NO WRONG.
    If already commited with it, nothing wrong.


    Moral:
    IF WE ARE COMMITED TO DO IT, NO MATTERS THE BENEFIT (WHICH MIGHT BE LITTLE).

    The meaning of you1 was under discussion in Harmen's page but i cannot find it.


    Yours,


    Charly
    Last edited by charly; February 17th, 2012 at 11:57 PM.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to charly For This Useful Post:

    poised (February 15th, 2013)

  9. #6

    Default

    19.3 is the only line with a strong warning not to get carried away. Considering that the Yi always tries to strike a balance the warning makes sense at line 3. That means, if we take the warning seriously, whatever it subjectively means to the questioner, the original good omen of the overall sign, fulfils itself by transforming into 11 which is the epitomy of low and high coming together - again, 11 has the strong warning to know the beginning of the end - peace does not last forever, so keep grounded, don't get carried away. I take the overall meaning of 19.3 a good one but surely perhaps not very deep in an ethical sense but perhaps more fun related in a worldly sense?

  10. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    southwest mountains of Colorado
    Posts
    2,116

    Default

    The gist of 19 is that it's the time of year to get to work, not the time to get comfortable, which is after the harvest of the tenth month.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bradford For This Useful Post:

    meng (July 14th, 2012), mythili (July 13th, 2012), rodaki (July 13th, 2012)

  12. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bradford View Post
    The gist of 19 is that it's the time of year to get to work, not the time to get comfortable, which is after the harvest of the tenth month.
    a great way of saying it,

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •