A Christian Book of Changes

hajile44 · Nov 18, 2012

You are invited to visit and play with my interactive online program at
http://sidneyhoover.us/
where the Introspections button leads to A Christian Book of Changes.

The code is still being fine tuned. It has been tested on Mac OS X, iOS 6 on iPad and some Windows. No testing yet on smart phones. Feedback appreciated.

pocossin · Nov 18, 2012

Nice, Sidney. Thanks.

soshin · Dec 11, 2012

The fine-tuning of the code sure would make for a good idea. Sadly I never made it to more than the front-page.

pocossin · Dec 11, 2012

The Christian Book of Changes is there but awkward to get to. Click 'Seven Gates', click 'Introspections', then click 'A Christian Book of Changes'. Then click each line and select a casting to get a hexagram. There are some bugs. The program will not process 6,7,7,7,7,7 (hexagram 44 with a changing line in the first place).

meng · Dec 14, 2012

pocossin said:
There are some bugs. The program will not process 6,7,7,7,7,7 (hexagram 44 with a changing line in the first place).

That's because it represents the lust of the flesh. (kidding)

meng · Dec 14, 2012

from XP PC

3 attempts to open
4th attempt gave error#404
and then froze my computer
three finger salute did nothing
had to shut down cold.

Reboot appears successful but am updating and running antivirus.

pocossin · Dec 14, 2012

meng said:
from XP PC

3 attempts to open
4th attempt gave error#404
and then froze my computer
three finger salute did nothing
had to shut down cold.

Reboot appears successful but am updating and running antivirus.

Thanks for the warning. I won't go back until the author shows up here and says that all the bugs are out.

bradford · Dec 15, 2012

Why the hell would you go there in the first place?

meng · Dec 15, 2012

Sorry for not seeking your approval first, Mr. Hatcher, Sir. From now on, curiosity shall be limited (and I do mean limited) to your opinions and precepts.

On second thought, nah.

bradford · Dec 15, 2012

Joseph Murphy has a Christian Yijing. He managed to remove all of the words of the Yi entirely and replace them with Bible quotes.
Just seems wrong somehow to dunk a book of wisdom into Christian drivel.

meng · Dec 15, 2012

bradford said:
Joseph Murphy has a Christian Yijing. He managed to remove all of the words of the Yi entirely and replace them with Bible quotes.
Just seems wrong somehow to dunk a book of wisdom into Christian drivel.

Interesting.

I can make comparisons all day and night between the metaphors used in both works. If you can't it's because you have mentally blocked out the Bible as a source of insight, mainly driven by your personal prejudice. That's your prerogative, but acting the part of Almighty Yijing Gatekeeper of Truth over everyone else's interests on this forum, condemning whatever you deem as being drivel, amounts to an intellectual monkey throwing his poo around to enforce a law that doesn't exist except in his own mind.

It's funny because I have a Christian older brother who sounds a lot like you, only he takes exactly the opposite position: considering the Yijing as the drivel of man's own confused and desperate mind. However, to his credit, he is slowly breaking through his own walls and opening up to the possible legitimacy of works that have been, until now, beyond his scope. But it's a tough road once someone's made their mind up, from either faction.

bradford · Dec 15, 2012

meng said:
I can make comparisons all day and night between the metaphors used in both works. If you can't it's because you have mentally blocked out the Bible as a source of insight, mainly driven by your personal prejudice.

I have read the Bible through several times. The parts that I wanted to focus on I even read in my faltering Greek and Hebrew.
It's not a book of insight. It's a book of mental illness.

meng · Dec 15, 2012

Come on, Brad. You know full well someone could read through the Yijing a hundred times and reach your same biblical conclusion of it.

I'm not going to attempt to defend all that is in it, because I too think many of its precepts are misguided and intended only for a specific people originally - as was the Yijng originally intended for a certain people. However, I can not read even a few verses of a book like Proverbs and not read its wisdom along with it. Same applies for most of the 'red letters', signifying the alleged words of Christ, who to me was a Daoist Jew, and when read in this light makes a great deal of sense (this is what made my views unpopular among my Christian brothers, many years ago).

Back to my bro a second. He can not accept a concept of the Creative in place of the Creator. He can not yet accept that nothing is created from nothing, and therefore places no value on human creativity - a feature of hard core fundamentalism I've always found distressing.

I'm making no evangelic conversion effort here, just trying to level the field a bit. To each their own, but I believe it's wrong to call people you don't agree with "a fool" (as you have done more than once recently), and to call a book you do not understand (even when written and read in Greek) a book of mental illness, insinuating the illness of those who read it as well.

Anyway, I don't need a Christian version of the I Ching; I've been comparing their allegories since 1980. But that doesn't make me any less curious now.

ciao

cjgait · Dec 21, 2012

Christianity and the Yi

Drivel about the Yi? Nothing new here. Take a glance at some of the incredibly convoluted silliness in some of the Chinese commentaries over the centuries. Meets the definition of 'drivel' quite well. Joseph Murphy does stand out, though. Remarkably irrelevant.

I think the Christians can find a lot in the Neo-Confucianists of the Song Dynasty that harmonizes with their belief system, but the further back you go, the more alien the Yi is to Western theology. Compare, for instance, 'turn the other cheek' with Kongzi's attitude. He called for meeting kindness with kindness and evil with justice.

There is a lot of common ground between the Shang belief system and First Temple period Judaism, but after the Zhou take over the entire basis of the Chinese religious system changes. Moving on to the Warring States, perhaps if Mozi had won out with his odd mixture of utilitarianism and spiritism perhaps we would have had a China more like the West. But Ruism (Confucianism) won the day and we have the wonderful mix of Chinese eclectic belief that evolved.

The spirituality of many Chinese people is very like my own Yi Dao: Materialist, but spiritual; spiritual, but not religious.

There is a series of books by Jung Young Lee that is a more reasonable approach to the Yi and Christianity, and in fact in looking up his name just now there was a Clarity thread on the subject in 2009: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=7774

bradford · Dec 21, 2012

cjgait said:
Drivel about the Yi? Nothing new here. Take a glance at some of the incredibly convoluted silliness in some of the Chinese commentaries over the centuries. Meets the definition of 'drivel' quite well.

Indeed. To be fair, there isn't an abundance of evidence that the Chinese understood the Zhouyi any better than westerners have.

meng · Dec 22, 2012

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

I'd tend to translate that something like: The pre-Big Bang contained within its subatomic seed all the elements of life, and released it in a microsecond to form the expanding universe.

Different Christian studies include various Hebrew Canons, most commonly the Old Testament, but some Christian religions include other works as well. Christian beliefs precede Christ. He wasn't seen as adding to what the OT prophets had written but a fulfillment of what the prophets had written. You might say he completed the circle for a culture, a h63. He is said to have said while on the cross and drinking his final humiliation: It is finished!

Let us also not forget that the earlier Bible is an eastern collection of writings, not western.

Sometimes I get the impression that you think there's no world before or after this personally revered period in Chinese history, this untouchable sacred cow.

dharmamom · May 23, 2013

I grew up in a Catholic household but chose not to be Christian. The Bible is not quite my thing but I respect the fact that it is the sacred book to many people around the world.
"Christian drivel" sounds, well, rather crude but then... Why can't we leave the Bible to the Bible and the I Ching to the I Ching? I have the idea that Christian people are always trying to translate everything into "Christian."
I read just one book by Murphy (that famous "The power of the Subconscious Mind" or something like that) and I can't quite follow the progress from there to a Christian I Ching.
I have a very Christian friend who everytime I quote the Buddha or Lao or Confucius...or Snoopy, as it is, automatically counters with a Bible quotation. There are other standpoints in life.

meng · May 23, 2013

That's because so many early philosophical/religious texts said essentially the same things. It's just that some exclude all (or certain) ones but the one they are personally given to believe and trust in.

Personally, I have no dog in the race. I have no religion nor absolute positions on religion. In this sense, I am a h64 man. I regard the Upanishads, Yijing, Bible books, as well as books that got cut from the final "Holy Bible" (i.e. King James) edition, American indigenous values, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, Christian, Daoist, sorcerer, and extremely ignorant, all rolled up into a ball of string. Vishnu is the cat that likes to play with me.

There is only one story of man, told in many different ways, with many different faces. ~ Joseph Campbell

meng · May 23, 2013

Snoopy was Peter.

bradford · May 23, 2013

dharmamom said:
"Christian drivel" sounds, well, rather crude but then...

What can I say? We're finally able to call it that without being burned alive for the crime. Just taking the window of opportunity.

bradford · May 23, 2013

meng said:
That's because so many early philosophical/religious texts said essentially the same things.

That's such a bunch of meretricious, platitudinous crap. Neither Buddhism nor Confucianism, for instance, have a concept of god or of spirit. And neither tells people to kill those who disagree.

dharmamom · May 23, 2013

Meng and Bradford, I love to read your comments so much... I hope you're just sparring and not irreconcibliably arguing. You both have so much to give to the site!
But then I understand Bradford. Down the ages I have developed a sort of allergy to the Bible too. I mean no offence, it's just my humble opinion.
It's okay to find parallels in all the religions and philosophies, but I think there's this tendency to find Christian people always giving their own version of other books in humankind lore.
Please, Meng, I can't always keep up with your English, so don't give me a scathing remark...

meng · May 23, 2013

bradford said:
That's such a bunch of meretricious, platitudinous crap.

What an ironic statement.

bradford said:
Neither Buddhism nor Confucianism, for instance, have a concept of god or of spirit. And neither tells people to kill those who disagree.

Neither exclude the concept either.

I have this discussion with my Christian brother all the time. One people kills the infidels, while another waits for God to come and do it for them, while yet another philosophizes that Karma will get them and make them pay. Concepts of God can take many forms, including the religion of atheism, humanism or existentialism. A belief by any other name is still a belief.

I much prefer stories.

meng · May 23, 2013

dharmamom said:
Meng and Bradford, I love to read your comments so much... I hope you're just sparring and not irreconcibliably arguing. You both have so much to give to the site!
But then I understand Bradford. Down the ages I have developed a sort of allergy to the Bible too. I mean no offence, it's just my humble opinion.
It's okay to find parallels in all the religions and philosophies, but I think there's this tendency to find Christian people always giving their own version of other books in humankind lore.
Please, Meng, I can't always keep up with your English, so don't give me a scathing remark...

chuckles.. a scathing remark, for having a personal belief and conviction? My mind usually runs ahead of my English, so please don't blame yourself.

Personally, I agree. If I thought an (IC/Bible) made sense, I would have written one years ago. But I've found that it's a paradox to introduce a conceptual belief to another conceptual believer, unless that person has a space for it, and vastly often, they don't. I don't either. I already have a mind, filled with enough images to unify them, if I care to.

In Christian vernacular, it's nice to have a rock to stand on when all the earth is sinking sand. It's also nice to go to a Buddhist monk school, get to shave your head and be all holy and enlightened. It's what I've wanted to do since 12: seek God in an absolute way. My mother convinced me it would be wrong to follow my wish to be priest, as it would deny her grandchildren, so I gave up the vision, but not the heart of seeking a rock to stand on. I've tried several; even within the Christian world, from Catholic 'training' to the most conservative to the most radical of Protestant denominations. I've spent the entire 20 years creating or realizing allegories between the ten prior years, absorbed in Wilhelm and esoteric world religions and philosophies. After I had to cut ties with any organized belief oriented community, I again took up the practice of divination, and seeking, as best a layman can, the reaches from the smallest to the largest. But this too is passing. Like my Dad used to always say, "we're just visitors here; we're all just passing through." That summed up his belief.

As far as Brad and I go, well, we've put up with each other for some ten plus years here together. I reckon we could go another ten. Truth is, I respect his work a great deal. We just see certain things very differently. I've been called worse by much worse than he.

weiwuwei · May 25, 2013

Brad, I'm not familiar with the "Christian I Ching", but did you say they *replaced* the lines with Bible verses?

Huang's book presents the lines as allegories to the lives of King Wen and the Duke of Zhou. I can imagine that being done for any culture or group of people, including the history of the Jewish and Christian people and their beliefs. While *replacing* the lines would make "Christian I Ching" an oxymoron, *adding* Biblical events and quotes *as commentary* would be a good thing, wouldn't it, Brad?

bradford · May 25, 2013

weiwuwei said:
Brad, I'm not familiar with the "Christian I Ching", but did you say they *replaced* the lines with Bible verses?

That was Joseph Murphy's Secrets of the I Ching, and he removes the Yi texts altogether and substitutes Bible quotes.

weiwuwei · May 25, 2013

bradford said:
That was Joseph Murphy's Secrets of the I Ching, and he removes the Yi texts altogether and substitutes Bible quotes.

Reminds me of "Christian Death Metal". The lyrics are supposedly pro-Christian but you can't understand the lyrics of any Death Metal, so all you do is feel less guilty.

dharmamom · May 26, 2013

meng said:
chuckles.. a scathing remark, for having a personal belief and conviction? My mind usually runs ahead of my English, so please don't blame yourself.

Personally, I agree. If I thought an (IC/Bible) made sense, I would have written one years ago. But I've found that it's a paradox to introduce a conceptual belief to another conceptual believer, unless that person has a space for it, and vastly often, they don't. I don't either. I already have a mind, filled with enough images to unify them, if I care to.

In Christian vernacular, it's nice to have a rock to stand on when all the earth is sinking sand. It's also nice to go to a Buddhist monk school, get to shave your head and be all holy and enlightened. It's what I've wanted to do since 12: seek God in an absolute way. My mother convinced me it would be wrong to follow my wish to be priest, as it would deny her grandchildren, so I gave up the vision, but not the heart of seeking a rock to stand on. I've tried several; even within the Christian world, from Catholic 'training' to the most conservative to the most radical of Protestant denominations. I've spent the entire 20 years creating or realizing allegories between the ten prior years, absorbed in Wilhelm and esoteric world religions and philosophies. After I had to cut ties with any organized belief oriented community, I again took up the practice of divination, and seeking, as best a layman can, the reaches from the smallest to the largest. But this too is passing. Like my Dad used to always say, "we're just visitors here; we're all just passing through." That summed up his belief.

As far as Brad and I go, well, we've put up with each other for some ten plus years here together. I reckon we could go another ten. Truth is, I respect his work a great deal. We just see certain things very differently. I've been called worse by much worse than he.

I have tried many ideas for size in my forty plus years but find none of them totally defines me. I have more and more the idea that we're more than our ideas. Or beyond our ideas.
I'm happy about your feelings towards Brad. I don't like to see people arguing over beliefs. We all come from the same place and will also end up in the same place. We try to come up with answers but they don't always work. They fail to explain the beauty and the grief of it all.
Anyway, I'm happy you did not get stuck in those extrem Christian groups or we wouldn't be enjoying your poignant comments on this site! :rofl:

And then, I did not read Murphy's "I Ching," but the idea of a Christian I Ching with Christian quotes seems to me absurd.

meng · May 26, 2013

dharmamom said:
I have tried many ideas for size in my forty plus years but find none of them totally defines me. I have more and more the idea that we're more than our ideas. Or beyond our ideas.
I'm happy about your feelings towards Brad. I don't like to see people arguing over beliefs. We all come from the same place and will also end up in the same place. We try to come up with answers but they don't always work. They fail to explain the beauty and the grief of it all.
Anyway, I'm happy you did not get stuck in those extrem Christian groups or we wouldn't be enjoying your poignant comments on this site!
And then, I did not read Murphy's "I Ching," but the idea of a Christian I Ching with Christian quotes seems to me absurd.

Ideas are what all ideologies are, and I enjoy the give and take of pondering and exchanging all of them, including the ones which initially rub me the wrong way; because chances are, it's only my idea that blocks (39) genuine consideration of another idea.

Smiling at the early sounds of coyotes coming through the open windows.. and the primitive recognition within the local domestic dogs, causing them to clumsily join in... that's not an idea, though the thought of it being synchronicity is. But - then, one domestic dog doesn't let it go, it just keeps on barking and barking obsessively. Ok, Dude, that moment's over - all us dogs know that.

To me, it's all the same rock 'n roll, but made up of many styles and faces and feelings, and stories and myths. Some from coyotes, some from domestic dogs. Some mix it up real good.

I go through periods of convincing myself that I should be engaging in a broader focused forum, but past experience has shown that each and every group is alike. The two rudest groups I've traveled through were the Christian and Buddhist groups. The Christian ones I could understand, because I know the structure and mind-set. But I was most disappointed with the Buddhist groups; I expected better. But there were wars there, the likes of which this site has never seen. The more new age groups, witch (ha) I have nothing against, but I don't fit in there well, either. Been to lottsa seminars and retreats; now I'm on my own. That's how I like it.

I can understand Brad's frustration with me sometimes and with the Christian thing. But he's the caliber of person I was born to challenge. The devil makes me do it. :stir:

littlebuddha · May 26, 2013

What a great thread! I study the Bible and i don't really see where is the big gap between the two... Of course, if an effort is made to study it in the original and not literally - the same with Yi, i can't imagine anyone would take it literally, the beheaded dragons & stuff... For some reason, it is dismissed though that the Bible is coded too, Faraon is one's ego, Israel would be one's soul, Egypt - whatever fears and uncertainties keep us enslaved in our own "Mizraim"... And it's not so difficult to follow the connection either - it is true that (according to the knowledge available to us & claimed true by academia) that these insights appeared simultaneously in couple of places in the ancient world, somehow at the same time peeps looked up at the stars in ancient Greece, China and in the middle East AND with more or less the same questions - why are we here and what to do about the gutter in which we live, while gazing at the stars...
In Hebraic sources, there is also a legend that 'and sons of Abraham went to the East carrying the presents' (Genesis 25:6) means sons of his concubines heading East - carrying the wisdom of Kabbalah... just saying

A Christian Book of Changes

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