Hex 27 unchanging

Greenkid · Feb 20, 2014

Please will someone help with interpretation Hex 27 unchanging.
Background:- A relative is a Chef (unfortunately - in my opinion, not a good one) He believes or says he does, that he is the bees knees. He gets work through agencies but his last job was cancelled after one day. He had been staying with a friend whose home leads a lot to be desired and to be honest he smells. I am considering offering to pay this relative a minimum wage and food, to help me with various jobs that I am unable to do myself so asked Yching "What would be the probable outcome if he abandoned his catering" and received Hex 27 unchanging. He needs money but the job he has currently been offered is in a warehouse which I believe he is not physically capable of doing, he is brave enough to do it but I believe his health will suffer if he attempts to do it. Some help would be really appreciated. Thank you in anticipation. A quick reply would be really helpful. Thankyou

Trojina · Feb 20, 2014

meigga said:
Please will someone help with interpretation Hex 27 unchanging.
Background:- A relative is a Chef (unfortunately - in my opinion, not a good one) He believes or says he does, that he is the bees knees. He gets work through agencies but his last job was cancelled after one day. He had been staying with a friend whose home leads a lot to be desired and to be honest he smells. I am considering offering to pay this relative a minimum wage and food, to help me with various jobs that I am unable to do myself so asked Yching "What would be the probable outcome if he abandoned his catering" and received Hex 27 unchanging. He needs money but the job he has currently been offered is in a warehouse which I believe he is not physically capable of doing, he is brave enough to do it but I believe his health will suffer if he attempts to do it. Some help would be really appreciated. Thank you in anticipation. A quick reply would be really helpful. Thankyou

Interesting....and unintentionally funny in parts. Not a good chef who thinks he is and he smells ! But you care so it's sad for you I guess.

We have thought a lot about 27uc here http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...eriences-with-Unchanging-Castings-Hexagram-27

I think the answer gives you the question back to make a common sense decision based on what is necessary in your eyes, and on his behalf. This idea you have sounds nourishing to both of you.

I suggest getting a sheet of paper with pros one side and cons the other for you. Then do another sheet for him.

I'm tending to go the way of seeing this as Yi saying you know best what you need. We trust appetites don't we ? If I want an orange I eat an orange as the food that feels necessary for me.

Your situation is a beautiful sample example of 27uc, though quite complex....he is a chef, therefore a nourisher, or tries to be, and also you want to nourish him and yourself.

This is an old fashioned sit down and think about what is needed and necessary and go with that. I think it's that plain. No hidden factors just "we have to get what we need. What do we need ? Lets think about it...what would be nourishing here ?"

Sounds to me like you have come up with a reasonable plan.

But the key factor here is the relationship between you isn't it. You haven't mentioned that ?

TygerChild · Feb 20, 2014

Well, for what it's worth, Dening's NOURISHING, says 'Respect yourself enough to take proper care of yourself. and be careful about who you choose to give your care to. Do not throw your pearls before swine. Be wary of lavishing care and attention on people who refuse to look after themselves properly.'

I would be very careful about going ahead with this. The hazards and complications could be many and great. If you want to help your relative, really, I'd think about, or do a reading to get clarity on that. Otherwise, seriously consider getting the support you need from another source.

Trojina · Feb 20, 2014

Denning is just writing a commentary, it's not like 'the truth' of 27uc. The reading doesn't suggest the hazards are great at all IMO.

Liselle · Feb 20, 2014

A practical question...can you afford to support your relative for some indefinite time if he quits his job? Maybe we should assume you can or you wouldn't even be considering it...just asking...

Also, am unclear about a couple things:

Is the catering you're asking about the same as the job in the warehouse, or are they two different jobs? I'm confused because it's the warehouse job you're worried will harm his health, but you're asking about him abandoning the catering. Is he somehow catering in a warehouse? Am just confused, sorry.
At the risk of getting too personal, is it your relative who smells, or the friend he's staying with? If it is your relative, it might make it difficult for him to get decent chef jobs...no one wants an unhygienic chef...

Trojina · Feb 20, 2014

I kind of assumed meigga is an older lady and the relative is a younger man. She needs his help and he needs hers. Also sounds like he has health issues or is unable to cope in full time jobs out in the world for some reason. Maybe mental health issues ?

I thought he smells because the place he is staying has no decent washing facilities, and he is not great at getting himself together, something like that ?

Sounds like he just needs that bit of support and if he can give support back it could work ?

But I'm making a lot of assumptions here so yes we need a bit more information.

BTW when I first said the post was funny I only meant this

A relative is a Chef (unfortunately - in my opinion, not a good one) He believes or says he does, that he is the bees knees. He gets work through agencies but his last job was cancelled after one day. He had been staying with a friend whose home leads a lot to be desired and to be honest he smells.

...the idea he thought he was great but he isn't....

but obviously if he is not well it's not funny at all.

Liselle · Feb 20, 2014

I agree it does sound like there are health issues.

The part about smelling - I did think at first Meigga meant her relative, and yes, there could be understandable reasons. But after reading it a few times, it didn't seem real clear who she's talking about. Hopefully it's an offhand remark that doesn't matter for the question and we can stop discussing it.

Thinking you're great at something when you're not is kind of funny. It might be relevant to the reading as far as how much support he will need. If agencies and employers in his area start realizing he's not a good chef, he might not be able to get work. And then the bit of mutual support could become more than that, and maybe more than Meigga could handle financially. Though as I said, her question was literally about him quitting his job, and she's still considering doing it, so maybe we can assume she knows she can handle it. Just double-checking.

The reason I'm asking these things...when I first saw the question and the 27uc reponse, I thought the answer might be saying, "If he quits his job, the outcome will be that he won't eat." Yi being prickly and really direct, not mincing words? But I am horrible at unchanging readings, and your comment was lovely and thoughtful and makes sense, so...I don't know.

When the question is about a chef, and the answer is 27 unchanging...that's hilarious, really. In a way. Maybe.

Hopefully Meigga will come back and clear up some things.

TygerChild · Feb 20, 2014

trojan said:
Denning is just writing a commentary, it's not like 'the truth' of 27uc. The reading doesn't suggest the hazards are great at all IMO.

Yes, my own sort of irrespective view, kind of trespassed on the interpretative bit which is confusing. Sorry to have done that as it can mislead.

ginnie · Feb 21, 2014

Since he calls himself a chef, I think the 27uc means he would end up cooking the meals at your house, Meigga. How would you stop him from doing that, since he believes he's the bees knees? Sounds like it could become a bit awkward, a situation calling for the utmost diplomacy and tact.

Greenkid · Feb 21, 2014

Hex UC

Dear all

How very kind and helpful you all are, Thankyou.

More info- The relative is my son, he has worked at many good restaurants, Including The Ivy but he has either lost his expertise or his hope. He has a very difficult domestic relationship and has left his partner (a number of times) he has two children whom he loves and tries to visit them (100 miles away) every fortnight (the reason he wants to work for an Agency, is because he can decide when to work)
I know that his partner is lazy and and in my opinion does not look after the children properly. My son, when he visits washes the childrens clothes, takes them to school, washes mounds of dishes etc.,etc.
I lnow this true because I've seen it. At the moment my son is extremely thin, it costs him a fortune travelling, the reason he stayed with the unhygenic friend was because it was halfway between his job and where he lives. (at the moment he staying with me) The warehouse job was not cooking and I was afraid that he was not physically able to do that work. I hope this will be helpful and I will read about UC 27. Very many thanks to you all. I am very grateful. meigga.
p.s. I persuaded him not to do the warehouse job and he slept all night and 3/4 of the day. The man is exausted.:bows:

ginnie · Feb 21, 2014

Aha! He's your son! I think the 27uc signifies that you each will be just what the other one needs. He needs employment and you need to get a few things done. This will stabilize the situation.

Greenkid · Feb 21, 2014

I think that my son is nourishing or trying to nourish every one except himself. He was very good at his job and had very good references but the food he has cooked for me has not been up to scratch so maybe he has just lost interest. which is why I think he should do something different.. I also have heard that he works like a trojan at all times, (sorry trojan) Thankyou trojan by the way you have very insightful ideas and remarks. Thank you all once again

Greenkid · Feb 21, 2014

Thank you Ginnie, I love you for that. And thankyou for the 'light in heaven.

Liselle · Feb 21, 2014

Meigga, I'm sorry for the bad guess - obviously please disregard what I said. I'm very glad to hear you've been able to help your son make his life a bit more manageable. Hopefully things will continue to get better (and maybe his cooking will get back on track!). Best wishes.

Greenkid · Feb 21, 2014

Thankyou Lisa, no offence taken. Love meigga

pocossin · Feb 21, 2014

What would be the probable outcome if he abandoned his catering?
27 unchanging

My concern is that if your son abandons cooking he will lose his magic tortoise, his inspiration in life. If he is a chef, he has, I suppose, a diploma from a school and has a great psychological investment in cooking. Could he not work in a restaurant somewhere to keep his knives sharp and his spatula turning?

Trojina · Feb 21, 2014

He did not get 27.1 so there is no magic tortoise in the answer

pocossin · Feb 21, 2014

trojan said:
He did not get 27.1 so there is no magic tortoise in the answer

The magic tortoise (plastron) is in hexagram 27 unchanging itself. Anyone who knows what a pitted plastron looks like should have no difficulty seeing the resemblance.

Trojina · Feb 21, 2014

My concern is that if your son abandons cooking he will lose his magic tortoise,

27 uc does not refer to loss of a magic tortoise. So whether it looks like a plastron or not the loss isn't indicated in 27uc

Trojina · Feb 21, 2014

But I suppose what he will lose and what he will gain are all part of the assessment of what's necessary.

When he feels better he could go back to work anyway

Liselle · Feb 21, 2014

pocossin said:
The magic tortoise (plastron) is in hexagram 27 unchanging itself. Anyone who knows what a pitted plastron looks like should have no difficulty seeing the resemblance.

trojan said:
27 uc does not refer to loss of a magic tortoise. So whether it looks like a plastron or not the loss isn't indicated in 27uc

Am wondering if somewhere in here is how people could avoid making the mistake I made, of thinking that 27uc can mean "not" "eating." I know it's been said that unchanging does not mean the opposite (for example, Hilary said that in this compilation post that LiSe put together), but I still keep thinking it does.

I'm not trying to discuss that generally here, but re: 27uc and plastrons, pitted or otherwise...some googling has told me that the plastron of a tortoise is the belly shell, not the top shell. Below is a picture. The googling has confused me as to whether pitting is shell rot or normal growth, but, either way, I'm not sure I'm seeing how the belly shell of a turtle looks like hex 27, specifically.

So if 27uc always contains the notion of a magic tortoise (because it looks like a plastron?), but never contains the notion of loss (because that's 27.1), does that mean that 27uc should never be interpreted negatively, as I did? Or something like that?

View attachment 1070

Trojina · Feb 21, 2014

So if 27uc always contains the notion of a magic tortoise (because it looks like a plastron?), but never contains the notion of loss (because that's 27.1), does that mean that 27uc should never be interpreted negatively, as I did? Or something like that?

27uc doesn't always contain a magic tortoise it's just Tom's opinion.

27uc may contain the idea of loss. Who is to say ? Who knows ? It could mean any number of things according to context. But the magic tortoise which is lost is specifically in line 1.

IMO if the loss of the tortoise were especially relevant the person would have cast 27.1 not 27 uc.

Trojina · Feb 21, 2014

Am wondering if somewhere in here is how people could avoid making the mistake I made, of thinking that 27uc can mean "not" "eating."

I don't think it's a mistake, it could mean not eating...because it covers the whole spectrum of taking in nourishment. The consideration is what is needed. You might be getting what is needed or you might not. I think 27uc is more of a question about that. A question that encompasses all possibilities of degrees of nourishment. So 27uc isn't saying whether you are eating or you aren't it's just asking you to look and see what is going on in regard to nourishment in the context of the question.

Liselle · Feb 21, 2014

trojan said:
I don't think it's a mistake, it could mean not eating...because it covers the whole spectrum of taking in nourishment. The consideration is what is needed. You might be getting what is needed or you might not. I think 27uc is more of a question about that. A question that encompasses all possibilities of degrees of nourishment. So 27uc isn't saying whether you are eating or you aren't it's just asking you to look and see what is going on in regard to nourishment in the context of the question.

You seem to have the intuition to make better sense of it, but this is why I cringe when I get unchanging hexagrams. 27uc = "one of 485757 possible things that has something, somehow, to do with nourishment". Ack.

As you said, sometimes context will make it reasonably clear. A lot of the time I have no clue. Literally - it's unchanging and I feel like there are no clues.

trojan said:
IMO if the loss of the tortoise were especially relevant the person would have cast 27.1 not 27 uc.

Ohhh, interesting. Process of elimination. The reading you didn't get saying something about the reading you did get.

Greenkid · Feb 22, 2014

Thankyou all for your VERY interesting comments (and arguments) interestingly, the picture you supplied Lisa, looks to me like someone's abdomen, (the Turtle's of course) my son is actually losing weight, he works very, very hard and very long hours and sometimes hasn't time to eat or the money to buy food when he works some distance away. We have had conversations today (which almost ended in a fight) in which he insisted he didn't understand anything I said (about nourishment) so I left him with the request that he just thinks about things. This evening tho' he says that the chef's jobs he is offered makes it impossible for him to have any sort of social life, or for that matter, much in the way of rest or relaxation, he is now considering giving it up! So far with no idea what else to do. I have suggested that he tries to think 'outside of the box' He is very headstrong but I think we might be getting somewhere. I think perhaps some gardening might be an alternative - could that be 'nourishing'? He could perhaps do that on an ad hoc basis. I can't afford to pay him long term but I can at least feed him.
I am learning from you all and am very grateful for your help. Thank you.
With love, meigga

pocossin · Feb 22, 2014

lisa said:
The googling has confused me as to whether pitting is shell rot or normal growth, but, either way, I'm not sure I'm seeing how the belly shell of a turtle looks like hex 27, specifically.

The plastron was removed from the turtle, cleaned, and processed. To use, a small pit was drilled on the inside and almost through the plastron. Then the pit was touch with a hot rod. This caused a pop (the spirits spoke) and a crack on the outside of the plastron. The crack has two lines -- a vertical line and a horizontal line pointing toward the midline of the plastron like a T on its side. If the horizontal line was perpendicular to the vertical line, the divination was auspicious, otherwise inauspicious. Here is a clear picture of a cracked and inscribed plastron.

http://mikkipedia.net/?m=20120817

Here is hexagram 27.

Code:

▄▄▄▄▄▄ 
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄ the two columns of pits
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄▄▄▄▄

Liselle · Feb 22, 2014

meigga said:
the picture you supplied Lisa, looks to me like someone's abdomen, (the Turtle's of course) my son is actually losing weight

And hex 27 - Nourishment - is highly related to the stomach...hm. Maybe the reading is saying "EAT!"

[Edited] Well no. Never mind, am getting all mixed up

. You didn't ask about your son's health. You asked about the outcome if he gave up his catering. Go on back to Trojan and Ginnie!

[Edited again] THIS way, Lisa: "If he gives up his catering, he'll eat more, get better rest, put on weight - be more 'nourished' in several ways." Which, again, is exactly what Trojan and Ginnie were saying. (Must bludgeon things very slowly through my brain

.)

Liselle · Feb 22, 2014

Pocossin, are you saying hex 27 with the two columns of pits is the plastron BEFORE the heat is applied and the cracks form? So that the tall empty center of 27 is where the vertical--- wait. The vertical line IS a crack, right? And with the vertical crack comes a horizontal crack, right?

There is no horizontal crack in 27. So why would it be 27 that looks like the plastron, and not, say, 21 or 22? Or even 15 or 16? (Or other ones like that, with one yang line somewhere near the center.)

Code:

---------
---   ---
---------
---   ---
---   ---
---------
hex 21, for example

(I don't know where people get their pretty hexagram pictures.)

Trojina · Feb 22, 2014

I am considering offering to pay this relative a minimum wage and food, to help me with various jobs that I am unable to do myself

When I first read this my immediate response was this was a creative solution. You are in UK I think. The options for people in his position can be very limited and difficult. What you propose is to help him get his health and mojo back. He could go on benefits and not work but that would be less than minimum wage and he will be under pressure to find work which wouldn't help.

If you need work doing and he can do it and you can pay him then it sounds a creative solution and these days in this country I think one has to be creative....There are no 'jobs for life' anymore. I think more and more people find new ways to get around things.

The only thing of concern may be his pride as a grown man taking your money that's why I asked about your relationship and maybe why Tom mentioned the magic tortoise. It would be important for him not to lose his pride.

Also he has children who are both his concern and yours which to me seems like even more reason for you to give him this support at this time.

I do feel for him. Perhaps the children can come to your house for visits now if he is living there.

Trojina · Feb 22, 2014

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/attachment.php?attachmentid=1070&d=1393019776

as meigga said it is amazing how that could look like a very thin belly

Hex 27 unchanging

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