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Thread: I think i've discovered the origin of the King Wen Sequence

  1. #11
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    Default The Mysteries of the Method

    Here are the 9 'Mysteries' of the above method summarized, with some initial thoughts on what their meaning could be. This is where I would appreciate any ideas, reflections, or knowledge from forum members - wher things basically get interesting .

    Mystery 1: Once the astral bodies have been plotted in a circle, any associations with the trigrams are dropped, and only the Yin/Yang division between the sectors is recognised.

    This remaining Yin/Yang division that forms the 'Yin/Yang Passage' for the numbers to be allocated to the bagua positions appears to be of more significance than the the gradations of Yin/Yang manifestation around the Taiji.

    Mystery 2: Earth is an anomaly between Water and Wood in the 8 sector plotted Wu Xing arrangement.

    The water must go through Earth to some degree in order to reach Wood (in nature), so this can be given a logical foundation. Maybe the extra Earth was dropped when the cycle was used alone from astronomy, in order to balance out the elements properly.

    Mystery 3: The 8 directions/sectors and 1 central region diagram can be calibrated with the Lo Shu (3x3 Magic Square ).

    Why use the Lo Shu to calibrate the sectors? - Is it because the Lo Shu has a profound equation locked within it that gives the model some kind of link to the 'fundamental mathematics' of the Tao/universe?

    Mystery 4: Rotate the Planet circle by 135 degrees clockwise in order to match up the Yin/Yang axes indicated by the numbers on the Taiji and Lo Sho diagrams.

    Why rotate? And why this specific angle? Is this rotation relative to some movement of the stars as they move in the heavens? Why is this a logical step?

    Mystery 5: While keeping the planets where they are in the 8 sectors, introduce the Sun, Earth, and Moon again by placing them outside of the diagram.

    This seems to suggest that a new astronomical 'reading' is being taken, requiring the Sun, Earth, and Moon to be used as a kind of benchmark.

    Here Wikipedia says:
    "...traditional Yin and Yang philosophy. The interrelationships of this philosophy were described by Fuxi in the following way:
    The Limitless (Wuji) produces the delimited, and this is the Absolute (Taiji)
    The Taiji produces two forms, named yin and yang
    The two forms produce four phenomena, named lesser yang, great yang (taiyang also means the Sun), lesser yin, great yin (taiyin also means the Moon)."
    So it seems that in my formation of the Planet Circle, my allocation of the Moon to Little Yang may have been wrong - maybe it should have swapped places with the planet Earth so that it can be in a Yin location. Consequently, this would make no difference to the general procedure, anyway, because both the Moon and Earth are removed along with the Sun to leave the 5 visible planets. Fuxi's comments show us clearly the role that the Sun and Moon play with regards to the bagua in general, and thus the link with Celestial Bodies as a phenomena. Reintroducing the Sun and Moon outside of the 5 visible planets sequence may be hinting at a system using nested concentric annotated circles - something which has been popular in Chinese culture when one considers the carved spheres within spheres.

    Mystery 6: Reintroduce the default Taiji trigrams to the sectors of the diagram, including the central Taiji and the default Yin/Yang passage line.

    This appears to infer that the gradients of Yin/Yang relative to the default Taiji position now have some importance within the process. At first it was the Yin/Yang Passage axis, but now it is all about how much yin and yang are present relative to the now rotated and balanced positions of the Planets/Elements. Why?

    Mystery 7: Lock the reintroduced default Taiji trigrams to their planetary associations (which have been rotated and balanced).

    Why is there not a flexibility of interaction between the Elements and the Bagua - like the planets moving through the fixed Bagua sectors akin to Western Astrological 'Houses'? The shuffling of the bagua from the Early Heaven into the Later Heaven Sequence positions shows that the planets are fixed to their Early Heaven bagua associations, even though there seems to have been some dislocation at the beginning of the Later Heaven formation process when the Planet Circle is rotated along with the Taiji. The bagua associations that could be atributed upon creating the Planet Circle were not carried around with the Planets/Elements as they rotated.

    Mystery 8: For the Later Heaven Sequence, this time rotate by 135 degrees anticlockwise to calibrate with the Lo Shu axis, in order to counteract the previous clockwise motion for the Early Heaven sequence.

    The balancing, counteracting movement seems to make sense because we must always balance Yin and Yang. However, this suggests that the rotation of the Planet Circle when calibrated with the Lo Shu is not always following the movement of the heavens as is caused by the rotation of our planet. It appears that the Planet Circle rotation may have it's root in a more abstract procedure. It may be interesting to note that in Feng Shui, as a rule, Yang moves in a clockwise direction and Yin moves in an anti-clockwise direction. This means that we could say the Early Heaven's calibration was Yang, and the Later Heaven calibration was Yin.

    Mystery 9: When allocating the trigrams from the Early Heaven Sequence to the Later Heaven Elements, there is sometimes a choice of 2 possible trigrams to allocate, so one must keep Earth trigrams the same as when the Early and Later Heaven sequences are calibrated using the Fire-Water Axis, but all others must change from any such calibrated correspondences.

    Why should Earth trigram associations remain the same when the Sequences are calibrated using the Fire-Water axis, but all other trigram associations always change when ever there is a reflection between the Early and Later Heaven Sequences? The Fire (離Li 火 Fire) and Water (坎Kan 水 Water)trigrams of course remain the same, and so does the calibrated Earth (艮Gen 山 Mountain) Element trigram. What is significant about this is that, out of the 8 bagua trigrams, 2 of these 3 relate directly to the Wu Xing Elements by way of their meanings; the others are: 兌Dui 泽 Lake, 乾Qian 天 Heaven, 坤Kun 地 Earth, 震Zhen 雷 Thunder, and 巽Xun 風 Wind. One other Wu Xing Element; Earth, is present in the bagua: 坤Kun 地 Earth, but in the Later Heaven Sequence this has been swapped across the Yin/Yang Passage - was this a 'balancing out' step taken when allocating the trigrams? - Created to ensure that Fire and Water were in fact the only 'locked' trigram meaning and Element/Planet combination present between the Early and Heaven Sequences ?

    If, when allocating the trigrams from the Early Heaven to the later Heaven Sequence, one used the same rule of changing any calibrated trigram correspondences to it's possible counterpart, then 艮Gen 山 Mountain would have been changed to the other Earth Element trigram 坤Kun 地 Earth. This would have created an apparent imbalance with regards to the Elemental positions when the trigram meanings are taken in to consideration - as if the trigram meanings outside of any planetary Element associations hold value and can give extra weight to the overall Wu Xing Element balance in the Later Heaven Sequence.

    Could the three raw Elements allocated to the trigrams before planetary associations have been created be rooted in some different origin to the heavens? Why have Wood and Metal been left out of these pre-planet trigram associations? It is interesting to note that: "The Chândogya Upanisad contains the earliest Indian view of the elements. There are three: 1) fire (agni), 2) water (ap), & 3) earth (prithivi). These emanate in sequence from each other. Fire is associated with oil, butter, and fat, while earth is associated with all other kinds of food. Each, as food, gives rise to three bodily subdivisions: Fire into bone, marrow, and speech; water into urine, blood, and prâna (breath); and earth into faeces, flesh, and mind. ...

    Later other elements are added. Fire itself comes to be seen as emanating from air (vâyu), which is later seen to emanate from "aether" (âkâsha). These are similar enough to the Greek elements, and their introduction occurs late enough, that Greek influence cannot be discounted. " THE GREEK, INDIAN, & CHINESE ELEMENTS. So the early Indian Elements model shares the isolated Fire, Water, and Earth with the basic bagua trigram associations - a common link?

    Is there any profundity in the Sun and Mercury remaining in the same calibrated locations between the Early Heaven and Later Heaven Sequences as represented by the Fire-Water axis in both? What about the metaphysical opposition betwen Fire and Water? - Indeed, this opposition is unified via meditation practice, as is often mentioned in the chinese secular meditation manual attributed to the immortal Lu Dongbin: 'The Secret of the Golden Flower'. The alchemical marriage is the union between Fire and Water effected by meditation. In the 'Secret of the Golden Flower', "the poetic imagery essentially conveys ideas and perceptions better suited to imagining than reasoning, with the hope that in time a convergence of imagery and reason will take place in a manner that is informative." Such was the way in those times, as the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching says:

    "The way that becomes a way
    is not the Immortal Way
    the name that becomes a name
    is not the Immortal Name
    the maiden of Heaven and Earth has no name
    the mother of all things has a name
    thus in innocence we see the beginning
    in passion we see the end, two different names
    for one and the same
    the one we call dark
    the dark beyond dark
    the door to all beginnings."

    - Lao-Tzu, TaoTeChing (translated by Red Pine).

    It seems that due to the essence of truth being beyond 'names', one must be ambiguous when describing worlds beyond mundane analysis, lest someone thinks the description is an exact representation of the territory described - the TaoTeChing seems to infer it is best to remain innocent and go on instinct, uniting duality while controlling the passions. From a Tarot card perspective, this alchemy is present in the Temperance Card; An angel (often female or genderless), a pool or river of water. Two cups or beakers, a fluid flowing between them. "How can you mix fire and water?" the Fool whispers. Never pausing the Angel answers, "You must have the right vessels and the right proportions." The Fool watches with wonder. "Can this be done with all opposites?" he asks. "Indeed," the Angel replies, "Any oppositions, fire and water, man and woman, thesis and anti-thesis, can be made to harmonize. It is only a lack of will and a disbelief in the possibility of unity that keeps opposites, opposite." And that is when the Fool begins to understand that he is the one who is keeping his universe in twain, holding life/death, material world and spiritual world separate. In him, the two could merge, as in the vessels that the Angel uses to pour the elements, one to the other. All it takes, the Fool realizes, is the right proportions....and the right vessel. "

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    So how is anyone getting along with the above main procedure? Frank? Any problems?

  2. #12
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    Hallo erime,

    I finally took the time the study your theorie. It's really fascinating what you are doing. I think it's quit complicated but I understand what you are doing. I always try to make it practical but till now I don't know how. But I know this will happen in the future.
    But I also saw some interesting points with mystery 8; you are writing why are these rotations 135 degrees?
    What I saw is that if you look to the numbers 1and 2 and 8 and 9(in diagram 7). you see that in the Lo Shu they have the same angle as the Yin- Yang axis(diagram 6)
    And in the early Heaven Bagua the Numbers 1 and 2 and 8 and 9 of the early Heaven Bagua(Diagram 7) have the same yin-yang axis as in the Later Heaven Sequence Element cycle(diagram 4). This is underlining the connection between these two.
    Last edited by frank_r; September 22nd, 2008 at 01:34 PM.

  3. #13
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    Hi Erime,
    I prefer to deal with premises since that simplifies conclusions.
    Are the Earlier Heaven and Later Heaven arrangements arising from the same anything? I do not believe so, for me they are completely separate developments based upon totally differing premises.

    Is the notion of Yang/Yin fundamental to all things Yi? That implies that the trigrams, hexagrams and Chou Yi grow out of Yin and Yang lines as components. However, the beauty of the King Wen Sequence (and the Later Heaven arrangement) is that the meaning of the entire gua comes first and foremost. Meaning from image symbol separate from component graphical elements--that is a great innovation.

    The Earlier Heaven pattern has a basis in all Yang and all Yang, but the Later Heaven shows no such bias. This implies they are built from different fundamentals not the simple application of the same process to churn out further iterations.

    What is the vital importance and foundational role of the magic square of 15? Is mathematical patterns the source of the Chou Yi? Why would it?

    The question moves from theoretical to practical since the King Wen Sequence can be explained in terms of the meaning of the gua without any reference to either number patterns or planetary associations or Yang/Yin notions . It can be explained in terms of Chinese philosophy and counting as sets of 10 hexagrams with the first being the overview of the entire set. The result is not just a replication of diagrams, but sophisticated philosophical analysis of the meaning of the hexagrams as a whole.

    The Later Heaven arrangement can also be explained from the meaning of the trigrams represented in their associations (e.g. Thunder and Lake as beginning and final state of the water cycle, Sun and water as top and bottom of our world, etc).

    This meaning based approach dovetails with other systems of the ancient world and requires no mysteries a benefit in light of the philosophy of William of Ockham (or in Latin, Occam's razor).

    Frank Kegan
    I Ching hexagram meaning from line structure
    and King Wen Sequence Explained: www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html
    Learn astrology meaning of signs, houses, planets from just the dot-number patterns on the dice cube:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/learnastrology.html
    New Yi Oracle Perspective:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/vaginaliching.html

  4. #14
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    frank_r

    I'm finding it a bit hard to follow what you are saying; when you say "What I saw is that if you look to the numbers 1and 2 and 8 and 9(in diagram 7)", there are two sector diagrams with numbers in 'diagram 7', so I am unsure which one you are referring to. Also, the yin/yang axis in the Early and Later Heaven arrangements as illustrated in diagrams 4 and 7 appear to be the same because the taiji symbol is re-inserted over the top of the diagram after the process has been completed(?), so I don't know what you are pointing to.

    It may be also important to note that the final yin/yang axes that we see in traditional Early Heaven and Later Heaven diagrams, are all the same. If we look at the axes preserved from the step where the Planet Circle is calibrated to the Lo Shu, we find that the axes are at 90 degrees to one another, just like the Fire-Water axes. The rotations in opposite directions creates this, as a reflected movement of 45, 135, or 225 degrees in opposite directions will always create a 90 degree separation of axes. Any different reflected angles of movement in opposite directions will never allow for this. See attached picture for a full illustration.

    fkegan

    We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here; planets, Lo Shu maths, and yin/yang binary representations.

    Sun interacting with water, mysterious gut feelings, and complicated number systems are further from this simple, demonstrable, verifiable world I am putting my theory across in.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by erime View Post
    frank_r

    I'm finding it a bit hard to follow what you are saying; when you say "What I saw is that if you look to the numbers 1and 2 and 8 and 9(in diagram 7)", there are two sector diagrams with numbers in 'diagram 7', so I am unsure which one you are referring to. Also, the yin/yang axis in the Early and Later Heaven arrangements as illustrated in diagrams 4 and 7 appear to be the same because the taiji symbol is re-inserted over the top of the diagram after the process has been completed(?), so I don't know what you are pointing to.

    It may be also important to note that the final yin/yang axes that we see in traditional Early Heaven and Later Heaven diagrams, are all the same. If we look at the axes preserved from the step where the Planet Circle is calibrated to the Lo Shu, we find that the axes are at 90 degrees to one another, just like the Fire-Water axes. The rotations in opposite directions creates this, as a reflected movement of 45, 135, or 225 degrees in opposite directions will always create a 90 degree separation of axes. Any different reflected angles of movement in opposite directions will never allow for this. See attached picture for a full illustration.
    Hallo Erime,

    What I'm trying to say is that in the diagram 7, looking both to 1-2 and 8-9(to the numbers in both former Heaven as Lo Shu), drawing a line through 1-2 and 8-9, in the Early heaven bagua you have the axis as in diagram 4(the later Heaven sequence Element cycle) and drawing a line through 1-2 8-9 in the Lo Shu you have the yin-yang axis as in the former Heaven sequence(diagram 6).

    Frank

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    Here is a link to my animation of the process. It's a bit fast, but is for illustrative purposes really.

    http://www.datafilehost.com/download-16068450.html

  7. #17
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    We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here; planets, Lo Shu maths, and yin/yang binary representations.

    Sun interacting with water, mysterious gut feelings, and complicated number systems are further from this simple, demonstrable, verifiable world I am putting my theory across in.
    All speculation is subjective. The claim that math diagrams and binary maps are non-subjective only makes sense to modern math folks. Clearly you enjoy your perspective and your correspondence is well documented. What it has to do with the King Wen Sequence and specifically its origin is not so clear. You can make a trigram sequence and move it about like a Rubik's cube, but would the ancient Chinese have any interest in such as a way to develop a novel insight into explaining their reality?

    The Sun interacting with the Planet Earth is the basis of the Water Cycle which controls all weather and thus crops and hurricanes. The modern Western notion that such can be ignored with our fossil fuel technology is being put to the test these very days. The non-subjective nature of modern views is becoming less and less tenable. Better to base your work on your own subjective work and how it corresponds well in your view. That King Wen must have followed your same footsteps is a bit of a stretch.

    What are the non-subjective phenomena involved in the creation of the KWS? It appears as the work of a single person completed by his son and after that known for millennia through its power as an oracle. Many scholars deny there is any meaning to the sequence since they can not explain it from their literature. Others insist it must arise from earlier notions of trigram arrangements or mathematical patterns.

    I understand your correspondence of the trigram sequence to the magic square. I don't see how that expands to explain the whole King Wen Sequence.

    Frank
    I Ching hexagram meaning from line structure
    and King Wen Sequence Explained: www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html
    Learn astrology meaning of signs, houses, planets from just the dot-number patterns on the dice cube:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/learnastrology.html
    New Yi Oracle Perspective:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/vaginaliching.html

  8. #18
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    All speculation is subjective.
    Of course, and yet I did say "We are dealing with relatively non-subjective phenomena here".

    The 'speculation' you are referring to are the distances between planets, Lo Shu maths, and yin/yang binary representations that I mentioned following that sentence.

    If you want to reduce these things to speculation, and look in to the cognitive foundations behind perceived distances between objects, mathematics, and binary duality, then it seems a meditative tradition would perhaps be more suitable.

    It seems you are already perceiving distances between broken and unbroken lines, using tables to create hexagrams for readings, and attributing yin/yang correspondences to yarrow stalks or coins, so I am taking it that these phenomena are beyond "speculation" in your world, and they are the phenomena I have used within my theory to show how the Later Heaven sequence has been formed.

  9. #19
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    Hi Erime,
    My remarks were based upon the detail that your associations do not require any correspondence with trigrams or planets. They can be explained from just the 4 pairs of numbers 1-9, 2-8, 3-7 and 4-6 which each add to 10 (leaving the central 5 odd-number out) which is the basis for the Magic Square. The most recent diagram you attach to your post shows your explanation involves simply rotating those pairs about. However, there is not indication that any trigram, any planet or anything inherent to the Yi is determined by or arising from the number pairs of digits 1-9.

    Having a simpler explanation for your magic insight, which involves only number tricks and nothing about the Yi, King Wen Sequence or Later Heaven requires that your arguments be grounded into something connected to the Yi.

    Frank
    I Ching hexagram meaning from line structure
    and King Wen Sequence Explained: www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html
    Learn astrology meaning of signs, houses, planets from just the dot-number patterns on the dice cube:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/learnastrology.html
    New Yi Oracle Perspective:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/vaginaliching.html

  10. #20
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    your associations do not require any correspondence with trigrams or planets.
    Did you watch the Flash animation I posted? The planets are laid out and numbered according to the classical bagua around the Taiji positioning method before the Lo Shu Magic Square even makes an entrance. The image I posted for frank_r was relative to a small point he was mentioning.

    Also, I use the trigrams pasted on to the Early Heaven planet circle to allocate to the Later Heaven planet circle in order to arrive at the Later Heaven trigram sequence, so the use of trigram associations to planets are integral to my method.
    Last edited by erime; October 1st, 2008 at 07:39 AM.

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