Line Characteristics and Positions

justin farrell · Jul 5, 2010

I've just been reading volume two of Bradford Hatchers 'The Book of Changes' where it talks of line characteristics and positions. I find the whole concept of gaining information from the position of a line, or its relationship with another line, quite fascinating. I don't have a great deal of experience of this method of interpretation myself, so I would be interested to hear how useful other people have found it, and how much insight it helped you to attain?

Justin
I Ching Readings Journal (Software)

maremaria · Jul 5, 2010

Hi Justin,

I sometimes use it, especially when it’s not clear the reading for me.
What I gain? it depends on the nature of the question, but sometimes makes clearer to what Yi responds. There are times it adds a new perspective, and others that affirm some thoughts I had made.

There is an interesting reading where the question and the lines are very fitting.

The Q was , regarding a relationship and needed some insight whether I should brake up with that person or not. Answer 61.1.2.4 >12
Because it was an important matter for me , and I knew I was biased from something I look at it carefully

I used LiSe’s texts for the lines where ( i quote from there)

Line 1 : T
the bottom line with reality, action, matter, the way one stands on the earth, beginnings.
feet and beyond (earth). To stand on one's feet, go one's own road - or to take another one. To live with and on the earth (reality).

Line 2
-The second line with reactions, 'walking in the world', connections with other beings.
-legs. Drive and energy to move, to build and defend your life, connect to the world, walking in the world

Line 4
The fourth line with decisions, finding the road, choices.
spine, shoulders, arms, hands. Motivation, choices, decisions.

Seemed to me that my question (12-separate or not) was somehow broken down in smaller questions, things I needed to explore .I could see that in the lines.

Is this what you ask about ?

Maria

justin farrell · Jul 5, 2010

Hi Maria
Thank you very much for your response. It covers an important part of what I am interested in. So in the reading that you mention, were the changing line positions providing a clue as to the nature of the issue that the line text was dealing with? Was this the method you used to interpret what the lines were saying?
Justin

I Ching Readings Journal (Software)

maremaria · Jul 5, 2010

they helped a lot. I can't tell the info was that which lead me in the "answer" but they make me go deeper and see what was behind my question.

I don't use it frequently, so i haven't test it a lot but in that occassion the lines position and the meaning of each one were really helpful.

I tend not to be strick to which "method" i use . Most of the time the matter leads you and when I can , i follow that.

justin farrell · Jul 5, 2010

Thanks Maria - thats really interesting. Hope everything worked out for the best with the issue that you used as an example.
Justin

I Ching Reading's Journal

maremaria · Jul 5, 2010

justin farrell said:
Thanks Maria - thats really interesting. Hope everything worked out for the best with the issue that you used as an example.
Justin

I Ching Reading's Journal

Yeah, it did !!!
My initial intepretation was excactly the opposite from the final one. :blush:

I don't know how things would be if i followed my first choice, but I'm happy for my choice.

If you are going to experiment on that, let us know. I'ld be interest to hear your findings.

justin farrell · Jul 6, 2010

maremaria said:
If you are going to experiment on that, let us know. I'ld be interest to hear your findings.

Hi Maria
I've just been looking at hexagram 61 in terms of its line characteristics to see what light they can shed on reading's. I was working on the assumption that lines which are not "correct" or which do not "correspond" may provide some sort of clue as to the nature of the issue. So, for example, does the "incorrect line" in the second place suggest that there is an issue to do with how a couple relate to one another (line two being being a yang line in what is yin place and line 2 also being associated with "connections" between people). The line text for two is concerned with theme of sharing.

Line 2 is also said to correspond with line 5. For the two corresponding lines to "resonate" the general rule is for one of the lines to be yin whilst the other is yang. In the case of hexagram 61 they are both yang lines. However, in this case Alfred Huangs commentary says "They link, forming a union .... It is unusual for two corresponding yang lines to form such a bond but their complete sincerity makes this special relationship possible". This line associated with organization and roles has the line text "Innermost sincerity links another, hand in hand. No fault".

So this my first experiment with line positions and characteristics. It would be interesting to get some feedback to see if this is a correct use of these interpretative tools, and whether this does, in fact, shed any light on the issue.

Justin

I Ching Readings Journal (Software)

maremaria · Jul 6, 2010

Re the position of the line (in a correct or not place) , I sometimes use it to, but haven’t “study” it a lot. Lately, I had a reading and given 43.4 . Line , 4 its on a wrong place , so I checked if there was something wrong in the matter I asked for.

Line 61.2 its in a wrong place ? Never noticed that. What that could mean ? perhaps its related with hex 42 , but I have to say I haven’t study that in depth so can’t help you here. The same for correspondence.

But there are people here know much about this. Perhaps they'll chime in and offer some explanations.

justin farrell · Jul 6, 2010

maremaria said:
Line 61.2 its in a wrong place ? Never noticed that. What that could mean ? perhaps its related with hex 42 , but I have to say I haven’t study that in depth so can’t help you here. The same for correspondence.

But there are people here know much about this. Perhaps they'll chime in and offer some explanations.

Well my understanding is that a given line is "correct" if it is yin in positions 2, 4 or 6, or yang in positions 1, 3 or 5 - hexagram 64 After Completion is the only hexagram where all the lines are in the correct positions. According to the theory, Line 2 of hexagram 61 is said to be "incorrect" because it is a yang line in a yin position. I don't know what an incorrect line (or resonating line) is meant to represent in the real world. I don't have the key to relate the theory to the reality. I'd be greatful if anyone can help with this.

Justin
I Ching Reading's Journal

bradford · Jul 7, 2010

For my own part, I almost never use the line characteristics.
I looked closely while translating for evidence that the original authors used them, particularly in the relative auspiciousness of the prognostication, but I saw no evidence at all that they did. There was no statistical correlation between something being correct and it being successful. I concluded that these were just tools made up by the Han scholars and the authors of the Wings to try to explain he text when language failed them.
The positions I use quite a bit, since they do show statistical significance in their use in the text and therefore were definitely known to the authors.

sooo · Jul 7, 2010

I find line position to be similar to the fan yao, in terms of significance. Most of the time I see a relative significance, but never consistently, and therefore never with certainty to be included in the reading's intended meaning. But if it sparks useful and productive thinking, it's all good.

bradford · Jul 7, 2010

sooo said:
I find line position to be similar to the fan yao, in terms of significance. Most of the time I see a relative significance, but never consistently, and therefore never with certainty to be included in the reading's intended meaning. But if it sparks useful and productive thinking, it's all good.

I think that's an important observation. The authors had a dozen or so dimensions, structural relationships, associations, correlations, etc. that they could draw from when they were imagining and writing the text, but I don't think that a single one of them was ever used consistently or rigorously. Much later, things like the line characteristics came along and were used in the same way by the authors of the Ten Wings and later Yixue. I think maybe the attitude to take from that is not to force the interpretation, but to use the dimensions where they work or volunteer some sense and meaning, and don't twist it or sweat it when they don't.

justin farrell · Jul 7, 2010

bradford said:
For my own part, I almost never use the line characteristics.
I looked closely while translating for evidence that the original authors used them, particularly in the relative auspiciousness of the prognostication, but I saw no evidence at all that they did. There was no statistical correlation between something being correct and it being successful. I concluded that these were just tools made up by the Han scholars and the authors of the Wings to try to explain he text when language failed them.
The positions I use quite a bit, since they do show statistical significance in their use in the text and therefore were definitely known to the authors.

Thanks for that Bradford. So there's nothing in the Zhouyi text itself that supports the existence of line characteristics. This must mean that the Zhouyi authors did not know about them, did know about them but didn't find them useful, or that line characteristics themselves don't exist. I suppose one way of finding out the latter is to look back at past readings and their actual outcomes, and compare them against the theory. That would be an interesting project to try sometime.

Just out of interest though - I still have problems grasping how the Zhouyi authors came to associate all the different elements that make up a hexagram and its lines. For example how a broken line in the 2nd place for hexagram 36 came to get the line text that it did. Did they use any sort of formula to do this - or was it a combination of observation, intuition, and comtemplation? It would be fascinating to know how they or he went on about doing this. It would also be interesting to learn whether there is any formula that can be applied retrospectively to provide more information about what a line or hexagram is about. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Justin
I Ching Readings Journal (Software)

justin farrell · Jul 7, 2010

sooo said:
I find line position to be similar to the fan yao, in terms of significance. Most of the time I see a relative significance, but never consistently, and therefore never with certainty to be included in the reading's intended meaning. But if it sparks useful and productive thinking, it's all good.

bradford said:
I think that's an important observation. The authors had a dozen or so dimensions, structural relationships, associations, correlations, etc. that they could draw from when they were imagining and writing the text, but I don't think that a single one of them was ever used consistently or rigorously. Much later, things like the line characteristics came along and were used in the same way by the authors of the Ten Wings and later Yixue. I think maybe the attitude to take from that is not to force the interpretation, but to use the dimensions where they work or volunteer some sense and meaning, and don't twist it or sweat it when they don't.

justin farrell said:
Thanks for that Bradford. So there's nothing in the Zhouyi text itself that supports the existence of line characteristics. This must mean that the Zhouyi authors did not know about them, did know about them but didn't find them useful, or that line characteristics themselves don't exist. I suppose one way of finding out the latter is to look back at past readings and their actual outcomes, and compare them against the theory. That would be an interesting project to try sometime.

Did they use any sort of formula to do this - or was it a combination of observation, intuition, and comtemplation? It would be fascinating to know how they or he went on about doing this. It would also be interesting to learn whether there is any formula that can be applied retrospectively to provide more information about what a line or hexagram is about. Does anyone have any thoughts of this?

Thanks Bradford and Sooo

Our posts crossed slightly and much of what you both said was very relevent to my question. Thanks again,
Justin

I Ching Readings Journal (Software)

heylise · Jul 7, 2010

36.2 Hiding brightness. Injured in the left thigh. Use the strength of gelded horses. Auspicious.
Do not discard or overestimate ominous fore-feelings. Just avoid the points of application for fate. If King Mu had used gelded horses, he probably would not have been injured. Omens can be useful warnings if one listens – or lessons if one looks back at the signs.
11.2 Reckon with crop failure, profit of horse and ice to cross the river, do not forget the remote and lose friends. One acquires honor by moving in the center.
Make your mind open and alert for all the possibilities life offers you - the setbacks and the lucky ones. Each one of them can make the difference between failure and success. Success usually does not depend on a talent to accomplish, but on a talent to grasp chances. Avoid extremes, chances live where all sides can live.

Trigram fire changes to heaven

Fire – human intelligence and insight – changing to Heaven, which goes beyond human creativity. Universe itself sending good and bad stuff down on earth.
The story of 36.2 was probably about king Mu, who got injured in his thigh when his horses were frightened by a bird. An omen from heaven, disrupting human activity. Nothing you can do against that, it is not in man's power. But you can take care not to give any point of application. Takings risks means that something like this bird can cause big problems. Staying within safe borders will probably make the trouble only minor. In this case using gelded – calm -horses instead of horses which get easily excited.
The fanyao is 11.2, the hexagram of the mountain where the gods reside. Even today the top of Mount Tai is a place where the gods dwell. Line 2 warns to take care of things: reckon with crop failure and so on, and go along the middle road, avoid excesses.

Not all lines are so clear. But I think in many cases things worked more or less like this. I am quite certain the makers of the Yi did now about trigrams. Oracles grow from simple to more comprehensive, from simple yes-no questions to overviews of situations with many graduations between the absolute-yes and absolute-no. From two possibilities to three - trigrams - up to six - hexagrams.

bradford · Jul 8, 2010

heylise said:
I am quite certain the makers of the Yi did know about trigrams. Oracles grow from simple to more comprehensive, from simple yes-no questions to overviews of situations with many graduations between the absolute-yes and absolute-no. From two possibilities to three - trigrams - up to six - hexagrams.

It's quite the fad in academic circles to parrot the idea that trigrams were a later invention, but we are in a field where critical thinking skills aren't a prerequisite and are often disavowed. I regard trigram analysis as one of the original dimensions and, further, that the trigrams have different emphasis in the different positions, lower and upper or zhen and hui.

lienshan · Sep 7, 2010

bradford said:
For my own part, I almost never use the line characteristics.
I looked closely while translating for evidence that the original authors used them, particularly in the relative auspiciousness of the prognostication, but I saw no evidence at all that they did. There was no statistical correlation between something being correct and it being successful. I concluded that these were just tools made up by the Han scholars and the authors of the Wings to try to explain he text when language failed them.

I thought so untill I read the last line (8 characters) of Dao De Jing chapter 59,
that can be viewed as an image of an yarrow plant structured as a hexagram of 6 lines:

1. gu4 ........ solidification, foundation, strength
2. di3 ......... lowest, bottom, root
3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long
4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed
5. jiu4 ........ worn-out, old, former
6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at
*. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity)
*. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun)

A reading from above to below (left to right) results in these two mistakes:
The photosynthesis of plants feeds the sun with energy.
The gravity makes the sun spin around the earth.

A reading from below to above (right to left) results in these two facts:
The sun feeds the plants by photosynthesis.
The graviation makes the earth spin around the sun.

*. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun)
*. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity)
6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at
5. jiu4 ........ worn-out, old, former
4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed
3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long
2. di3 ......... lowest, bottom, root
1. gu4 ........ solidification, foundation, strength

The subject of the previous lines of the chapter is the Son of Heaven and the Zhou state,
that relates to the stalk (worn-out, old, former) that'll say the socalled "ruler's place" ...

How could a 375 BC diviner know, that the worn-out Son of Heaven and Zhou state belonged to the 5th line,
if "the ruler's place" was something made up by the Han scholars after 200 BC

bradford · Sep 7, 2010

lienshan said:
How could a 375 BC diviner know, that the worn-out Son of Heaven and Zhou state belonged to the 5th line,
if "the ruler's place" was something made up by the Han scholars after 200 BC

For the most part I don't have a clue what you are going on about, but if you are talking about the fifth line being the ruler's position you are referring to line positions (yao wei), not line characteristics (yao de). Line positions were definitely a part of the original Zhou thinking. You need only count the references to toes iand feet in first lines and heads in top lines to prove that. It's line characteristics like correctness, correspondence and holding together that were made up much later.

lienshan · Sep 7, 2010

bradford said:
if you are talking about the fifth line being the ruler's position you are referring to line positions (yao wei).
Line positions were definitely a part of the original Zhou thinking.

Thanks bradford :bows:

I'm exploring, whether the six characters below correspond to the six line positions (yao wei)?

6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at
5. jiu4 ........ worn-out, old, former
4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed
3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long
2. di3 ......... lowest, bottom, root
1. gu4 ........ solidification, foundation, strength

or in other words corresponding to the image of a yarrow or milfoil:

6. shi4 ........ the inflorescence
5. jiu4 ........ the stalk
4. sheng1 .... the seed
3. chang2 .... the exelled root
2. di3 ......... the bottom of the root
1. gu4 ........ solidification, foundation, strength

Am I wasting my time following such a reading of the characters?

bradford · Sep 7, 2010

lienshan said:
Am I wasting my time following such a reading of the characters?

If you're asking my opinion, then yes. This muddles the Yao Wei rather than clarifying them, and detracts from the clarity in Laozi as well, and Laozi can't afford to lose any more clarity.

lienshan · Sep 7, 2010

bradford said:
Laozi can't afford to lose any more clarity.

I listen to your advice and start reading the Guodian Laozi chapter 37 instead :bows:

It begins with "dao heng" so the number of characters in each line are settled by a Guicang hexagram,
that change to the hexagram "heng"; probably 786667 "yi" (27) changing to 687776 "heng" (32).

The ye character in the first line looks like an auxillary character meant to confuse the censors,
so the first line must be a lese-majesty meant to be read reversed; put into my poor english:

The King's and the Marquis's competence makes the independence of Dao disappear.

Clarity depends of the eyes reading

Line Characteristics and Positions

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