A prince offers it to the Son of Heaven. A petty man cannot do this.

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Hi All,

I try to grasp the meaning of line 14.3. I have read some translations and the general meaning is about giving, sharing some of your processions. What confuse me is the feeling, regarding the question I asked , was like receiving and not giving.

Wonder how do you read this line. What stands for the prince and what for the Son of heaven? Is just a sacrifice ,an offering , (and)/or an exchange ?

thanks,
maria

Hi Maria,

If it's about receiving, I'd read it as giving up the desire to receive what you're hoping for. I read this line as a sacrifice of (giving up) something which opposes you (fan yao 38.3 - seeing yourself as disadvantaged). In doing so you protect your integrity and possession of yourself. It's like, giving it up to a higher power.

one more for the pot . .
giving without setting your eyes on a goal or return . . managing to make the offering gesture even when opposing forces draw you back and cut your feet can be as rich as receiving wealth . .
just my two pence . .

maremaria said:

... I try to grasp the meaning of line 14.3 ... Wonder how do you read this line. What stands for the prince and what for the Son of heaven? Is just a sacrifice ,an offering , (and)/or an exchange ? ...

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María:

I have made a long way for trying to understand this line, not sure of the results.

I begin with the name of tne hexagram, passed by chapter 25 of the Dao De Jing, taked a look to other lines and fall in 14.3.


The name of the hexagram:

DA YOU, has two characters BIG / GREAT and the verb TO HAVE, the first depicts a BIG MAN and means only BIG, the second depicts a HAND TAKING A PIECE OF MEAT, nowadays it means TO HAVE.


I believe that among other meanings, H14 tells something about how to survive in a CARNIVORE SOCIETY, how to survive in a pitiless PICKING ORDER, how to care your skin and conserve your flesh.


Chapter 25 of Dao De Jing:

It ends with the following sequence (lack of chinese characters here):



The line:

Now, coming to 14.3:


Some tips:

The Duke pays tribute to the Emperor, common folks cannot do that.
Kerson Huang

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• Until the Qin dynasty China was not an empire.
• GONG, Duke = highest rank in nobility
• TIANZI, Son of Heaven = highest rank among Kings, reserved for the Zhou Kings.
• XIAREN, Little-Man = nothing high: lower people, lower drives, lower anathomy

High Noble praised High King, we know that High King praised Heaven, Little-Man not.

→ Little-Man praised himself (DDJ 25 connection) (1).


Moral:

Powerful people report to even more powerful people.

Duke, King and Little-Man are almost the same, but the last reports himself, as he doesn´t expect nothing, he makes his OWN WILL.

Little-Man, lacking a place in high hyerarchy, do not make false praises. Hyerarchy means vassalage. Little-Man has freedom.

Rules of behavior are not the main concern of Little-Man. The main concerns of Little-Man are: (1) how to remain alive, and (2) how to get women.

How to conserve the received gifts without give submission.


Yours,

Charly


___________________________
(1) In my country «to lack of grandmother» («no tener abuela») means to speak well about oneself, to made one´s own advertising. Little-Man has no ancestors, lacks of grandmother.

Hi Maria,
I once got a gift that I felt was almost too much, as if maybe I couldnt accept it. then I got this line and it reminded me that the giver has a great blessing in giving, he gives to the Son of Heaven which is the most sacred gift, a pure offering no strings attached, something a petty man cannot do. the most sacred act in return is to accept such a gift with equal purity.

Many years ago, my mother came to told me that she met the mother of a friend who thanked me ( in many words) for something’s I offered to her daughter. I had no idea what she was talking about. Then the sister of my friend met my mother and said the same things. Then my mother asked me what did I do for her and I couldn’t reply because I didn’t know. Some months later, I met that person and she said me what was about. A simple information that was of great significance to her.
I’m telling that story because its similar to what I try to figure out and while pondering on that line it came in my mind.

I don’t see the offering part in that line. Of course there is, every translation agrees that there is a offering, but what I experienced is like opening your front door and find a big box with a present inside but without a card to explain from whom or why.

Whilhelm says “The sun in heaven above, shedding light over everything on earth” . There is no a better image than this one to describe the “feeling” of what happened. Dare to say that this image is very literal. Its like been in the dark and suddenly a hand gives you a beacon as big as the sun and you take it but you wonder “what I have done to deserve such a gift”.

Bamboo, I can relate to what you say, especially about the difficulty to accept. And thank you for that : " The most sacred act in return is to accept such a gift with equal purity"

Charly and Dora, thank you too. I have put on a paper some thoughts and words in a very “brainstorming” way, without judging them and reading your responses, cycled some of them.
Meng, I still insist ( stubborn me ) that there was not a offering (at least consciously ) but reading “sacrifice of (giving up)” think I have to look again to line 14.3 and its fan yao and also hex 38. I’m pretty sure that you have nailed something but its not clear in my mind yet.

Perhaps the reason that this line confuses me is because I took it a bit “literally” and forgot that each line is morphing because of the question. That give/ receive make me treat that reading in a very 38 way :bag had to chuckled reading LiSe’s name of 38 , looking askance). Some times a line alone, doesn’t make much sense but in a certain context becomes very meaningful.

Thank you all for your insights. You have been very helpful.
Maria

maremaria said:

Its like been in the dark and suddenly a hand gives you a beacon as big as the sun and you take it but you wonder “what I have done to deserve such a gift”.

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Maybe simply "thank you" is enough. If you are moved to perform a small ritual to express this, that can be fulfilling when it's from the heart. Having the grace to accept such a gift may itself be a sacrifice of pride and self sufficiency, which obstructs the fullness of receiving such possession.

meng said:

Maybe simply "thank you" is enough. If you are moved to perform a small ritual to express this, that can be fulfilling when it's from the heart. Having the grace to accept such a gift may itself be a sacrifice of pride and self sufficiency, which obstructs the fullness of receiving such possession.

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Thanks for that.
I try not to analyze a lot such things but sometimes its not easy.

There is a coincidence here. Because the time your were posting that, I was on the phone and that moment the subject was about “give and receive”. It popped up from nowhere because actually the discussion was not about the matter I’m talking about it here. Funny !.
Me thinks that I have overanalyze this matter. Time to retreat.

Once again thank you all.

Maria

afterthoughts . .
you are right Maria . . there's no point in getting stuck in a 'who's who' question afterall . . I 'm not even sure if 'possession' is a good term either -although translation might heavily support it- and reading in the archives abt this hex. it is rarely perceived as such in real life . . 'potential' sounds like a more suitable word and that can not be given or received, claimed or owned. it is just found in interaction and shared . . definitive roles seem to fail it . .

rodaki said:

. . there's no point in getting stuck in a 'who's who' question afterall . . I

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Well, I spend some time searching for who is who. :bag: And the reason I thought stop doing that was because the more I was going back the more confused I got. Cuz, that “offering” was the result of another “offering” which resulted from another offering…. and there is no way to find the beginning of that thread.

I don’t remember who said that, I probably have read in here but someone called 14 “riches”. Those days, I try to clean my head from too many thought using a weird kind of meditation. Playing some games on facebook. One may laugh reading this , but I have found it very helpful. For me it works. One game, when you level up there is a option to publish it on your FB . “share the wealth ?” is the question. If you publish it, other players can benefit from it, gaining points, gifts etc.

I see now better that line 14.3 talks about that sharing of wealth. You share your riches with someone else. Yet those reaches are not exactly yours. Its like a chain , and one’s role is to keep this chain going on. Maybe that’s the difference between the prince and the petty man. The first shares, the later wants the riches for itself, s/he brakes the chain in a way and perhaps the riches lose their value.

The funny thing is when I first post here, couldn't “understand” what Wilhelm was talking about. No I can see it better. Before posting this I looked again at Wilhelm and I see that somehow I repeat his words but to me it's re-descovering the obvious.