The river of Hexagram 53

hilary · Oct 29, 2009

Alfred Huang says of this one,
"Jian was the name of a river whose fountainhead lay in the mountains in central China at a place called Dan-yang in the kingdom of Zhou. The Jian river crossed the vast area of central China and gradually became vast itself as it flowed east to the ocean. The ancients chose this river as a symbol of gradual development."

The weird thing is that I can't find anyone else who mentions this specific river in connection with the hexagram. Googling the character 渐 - in Chinese, which I can't read - brought me this dictionary entry courtesy of the Google translation engine:
"(1) (-shaped sound. From water, chopped sound. The original meaning: the name of ancient water. Xin'anjiang term of the present and its downstream Qiantang River)
(2) The name of the ancient water [Jian River]
Gradually, gradually the water out of Danyang Yi Nanban in the east into the sea. - "Said the text"
Gradually Jiang, Shan Hai Jing, Zhejiang, it means that also. - "Waterways gradually the river." Mortgages, term of the present of the Qiantang River, the ancient Changjiang River and Qiantang River Pass.
(3) signs, signs [omen]. Such as: gradual is not long (just outcrop of bad things can not allow the growth of its development); a preventive measure"
So at least we can tell that Huang didn't dream up his river. (I assume its course was changed or destroyed by an earthquake.)

This would be of academic interest only if it weren't for the fact that this describes a river flowing down from the high mountains to the coast, and the lines describe the flight of wild geese up from the coast to the high mountains.

It would be great to see a map of the original course of this river. If it happened to flow down past ancient burial sites, through forest and then another mountainous region... well, that would be Yeek ecstasy, wouldn't it?

...or how about a map of migratory patterns for geese in China? (Those might not have changed much since Zhou times.)

Has anyone researched this?

rodaki · Oct 29, 2009

I don't know if this helps at all, but I found this satellite track map of migrating swan geese in China . . -can you tell I don't want to work today? I'm cooking and looking into geese's migratory patterns :bag:

(from http://www.werc.usgs.gov/sattrack/swangoose/onebird.asp)

hilary · Oct 29, 2009

Wonderful! Except the pesky geese haven't read my theory and are obstinately flying north instead of west.

rodaki · Oct 29, 2009

damn birds! :rant:

:bag:

rodaki · Oct 29, 2009

. . uhm, could it be that 53 is about the geese's winter stay in the river's delta until their journey towards the mountains???

hilary · Oct 29, 2009

The first goose I really got to know belonged to my grandmother. It chased me ferociously - I was scared stiff of the thing. And presently quite grateful to the fox.

rodaki · Oct 29, 2009

yup! my parents own a parrot . . birds are peculiar creatures!

hilary · Oct 29, 2009

rodaki said:
. . uhm, could it be that 53 is about the geese's winter stay in the river's delta until their journey towards the mountains???

Is that what geese do? (I defer to your recent goose-research!) 53's geese visit the mountains a couple of times (lines 3 and 6) - maybe by line 6 they are disappearing over the border with Mongolia... . Actually I've always wondered what they think they're doing up there - but maybe there are good mountain lakes for them.

Sparhawk · Oct 29, 2009

Some information I was able to find:

The common assumption is that 鸿, hong, refers to wild geese. However, it appears that it can also refer to a kind of large crane (please, kind reader, I know cranes have their own Chinese character: 鶴...). Here is some information about "hong" lore in ancient china. When it refers to geese, it actually refers to "Anser fabalis serrirostris" or Eastern/Tundra/Chinese Bean Goose.

Black Necked Cranes, for example, have a completely different migration pattern:

I only bring "cranes" into the picture because the migration routes are more "inland oriented" and bear WNW (almost West into the Himalayas for some flocks) in summer for breeding and then fly ESE for wintering. Sooo, mountains and rivers galore in that range. The only problem that I can think of with this theory is that the range appears to be too south for ancient Zhou territories. OTOH, cranes are very much a part of the Zhouyi and the lore of long migrations attributed to geese, can also apply to cranes.

Time permitting, I'll work on the rivers next.

rodaki · Oct 29, 2009

I think it could fit . .

Favorite wintering locations in China are Lake Dongting, Lake Poyang, the Yancheng Coastal Wetlands and other locations around the lower Yangtze River, where some 60,000 individuals may be found each year – though this may be almost the entire world population

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_Goose

. . deltas are often national parks because they gather big numbers of migrating birds.
It's also the place where the river lays to rest all the material it collected in its journey . .

p.s.

ops, crossed posts with Luis . .

charly · Oct 29, 2009

hilary said:
Alfred Huang says of this one,
"Jian was the name of a river whose fountainhead lay in the mountains in central China at a place called Dan-yang in the kingdom of Zhou. The Jian river crossed the vast area of central China and gradually became vast itself as it flowed east to the ocean. The ancients chose this river as a symbol of gradual development."

Hilary:
Do you trust it? I have another source for «GRADUAL DEVELOPMENT», male gesse are among the few birds that have a tool for copulating (1). I don't remember if they prefer to do it in the water, maybe a river or a lake, it's probable.

One of the most intelligent birds, the goose has a good memory and does not quickly forget people, animals, or situations that have frightened it. While personalities and habits vary among individual specimens, there are common behavioral patterns, such as the pecking order, that allow individuals to live peaceably together.

Unless conditions are crowded or there are too many males, geese normally live harmoniously both with themselves and with other creatures. The bond between male and female is strong. Changing mates is difficult, although most geese will eventually accept a new mate after a period of "mourning."

Geese nest on the ground and prefer the water's edge, but they adapt readily to man-made nesting boxes. The gander usually stands guard while the goose incubates the eggs. He then assists in rearing the goslings. Most geese become irritated if intruders approach their nest or goslings, and will even attack people and large dogs.

from: http://greenstone.refer.bf/collect/demo/import/b17mie/b17mie.htm

I prefer the geese hypotesis.

Yours,

Charly

________________________
(1) Some ducks too, I have read that an argentine duck is a record.

meng · Oct 29, 2009

Could Jian refer to our own river?

I've Got a River of Life
By: L. Casebolt

D G D
I've got a river of life flowing out of me!
D Bm E A7
Makes the lame to walk, and the blind to see.
D G D
Opens prison doors, sets the captives free!
D Bm D/A A D
I've got a river of life flowing out of me!

G D
Spring up, O well, within my soul!
G E7 A
Spring up, O well, and make me whole!
G D
Spring up, O well, and give to me
G D A D
That life abundantly.

tuckchang · Oct 30, 2009

hilary said:
Googling the character 渐 - in Chinese, which I can't read - brought me this dictionary entry courtesy of the Google translation engine:
"(1) (-shaped sound. From water, chopped sound. The original meaning: the name of ancient water. Xin'anjiang term of the present and its downstream Qiantang River)

See the photos of Xin'anjiang:http://www.uhuangshan.com/big5/more/xaj.htm

Regards
Tuck :bows:

hilary · Oct 30, 2009

Come to think of it, the sheer bolshy ferocity of the goose isn't much of a feature in 53, is it? Maybe the Chinese mostly watched them flying gracefully past, and never tried to domesticate them. Or maybe they were cranes, as Luis says, hatching cranelets at line 1 before the long migration in to the mountains. Lovely birds... wonder if the black-necked ones dance with their mates, like crowned cranes... And can they roost in trees? (Remember the photo Brad found of a goose in a tree?)

Tuck, is that our river, then, that used to be called Jian, 漸? It has a very expansive, gradual feel to it.

I suppose what I'm mostly wondering is whether, if I find out a lot more about the river 漸 and its course, I'll have a much better idea of Hexagram 53. You know, like you learn about Mount Tai and then have a whole new view of Hexagram 11.

hmesker · Oct 30, 2009

hilary said:
is that our river, then, that used to be called Jian, 漸

Yes, 漸 was another name for 浙江, which is today's Fuchun River (富春江 - see this large image, from 中國歷史地圖集, Vol. 2.) No. 1 is the Fuchun River, which according to this map was called 浙江 during the Qin and Han dynasties. The Shuo Wen says it was located at Danyang 丹陽 (no. 2), but the 漢語大詞典 also says it was running downstream from Xin' anjiang 新安江 (no. 3).

hilary · Oct 30, 2009

Thanks, Harmen!

Any lore about this river we should know?

naturesway · Oct 30, 2009

consciousness

I believe the river or stream being crossed is mental action of crossing from the conscious mind to sub conscious mind.

hmesker · Oct 30, 2009

hilary said:
Any lore about this river we should know?

Oh yes, there are a lot of stories about this river!

Unfortunately I don't know any of them.

I'd say, ask the locals.

naturesway · Oct 30, 2009

meng said:
Could Jian refer to our own river?

I've Got a River of Life
By: L. Casebolt

D G D
I've got a river of life flowing out of me!
D Bm E A7
Makes the lame to walk, and the blind to see.
D G D
Opens prison doors, sets the captives free!
D Bm D/A A D
I've got a river of life flowing out of me!

G D
Spring up, O well, within my soul!
G E7 A
Spring up, O well, and make me whole!
G D
Spring up, O well, and give to me
G D A D

That life abundantly.

I like this thought..very stimulating
There is a well that flows thru all of us call it soul or just love
That need to love and be loved and when this reciprical action is happening between two elements be it human or any natural living creature or creation
Sun to the flower , rain to the earth
Something remarkable is happening
And everything is seen clearly and mind and body are in harmony
Thoughts and feelings just spring forth in a combustable freedom that
Touches everything it comes in contact with
And Clarity is revealed

Sparhawk · Oct 30, 2009

hmesker said:
Yes, 漸 was another name for 浙江, which is today's Fuchun River (富春江 - see this large image, from 中國歷史地圖集, Vol. 2.) No. 1 is the Fuchun River, which according to this map was called 浙江 during the Qin and Han dynasties. The Shuo Wen says it was located at Danyang 丹陽 (no. 2), but the 漢語大詞典 also says it was running downstream from Xin' anjiang 新安江 (no. 3).

Thanks Harmen!

Now, according to those maps, the "crane" theory is pretty much moot (although very poetic, if I may say so...

) and the Eastern Bean Goose is up again. Now, in one of those links I posted above, some of those "Anatidae" are also "tree ducks" (树鸭). I wonder if they meant different kinds of ducks in 53. An interesting distinction is that, geese wise, "hong" appears to refer to the big specimens. "Yan" was used for the smaller ones:

"The wild geese (hong and yan) are flying." A commentary adds that a large goose would be called hong, while a smaller one would be called yan, and books can be found illustrating this hong, but eventually the word hong came to be commonly used only for its extended meanings, like"large" or "grand".

Very interesting topic you brought, Hilary.

tuckchang · Oct 30, 2009

hilary said:
Tuck, is that our river, then, that used to be called Jian, 漸? It has a very expansive, gradual feel to it.

For your information, according to (one of) the oldest Chinese dictionary: 說文解字 (established approx. 1200 years later after Chow Yi), 漸 Jian indeed is a river, the water of which was out of Danyang Yi Nanban and flew east into the sea, i.e. Xin'anjiang and its downstream Qiantang River, terms of present. 漸 of hex 53 was interpreted as ‘gradual advance’ in Tuan Zhuan 彖傳 (one of ten wings) approx. six hundred years earlier.

Also for your information, usually 說文解字 only provides with the original meaning of a character, for instance, 漸: the water of which was out of Danyang Yi Nanban and flew east into the sea, but without its extended meaning, for instance, 漸: gradualness.

Regards
Tuck :bows:

charly · Oct 30, 2009

hilary said:
Come to think of it, the sheer bolshy ferocity of the goose isn't much of a feature in 53, is it? Maybe the Chinese mostly watched them flying gracefully past, and never tried to domesticate them.

Hilary:

Surely geese were domesticated in ancient times but I believe that the YI speaks of WILD GEESE, among russians there are many folkstories where the wild geese are dangerous for little children, geese appear kidnaping them. Maybe in china there were similar stories.

But male geese are not ferocious animals, they are pretty friendly although of course, they defend territory, protect family and THEY LOVE TO SCARE PRETTY GIRLS.

These guys are not bad but are know by some prepotency, even more when speaking of large birds.

I believe that GEESE fit pretty good with WIND OVER MOUNTAIN, meaning outer FREEDOM and inner SERENITY.

They are related with marriage in ancient china although their customs defeated the ideology of male superiority, poligamy and mariage for interest, dominant among rich people, nobles and kings.

Like nobles they have a pecking order but their family bonds are strong, they don't abandon wife and children for going to war serving the interests of powerful kings. To take care of the children don't make them to feel weak and effeminate.

When the husband goes to war and the pregnant wife will not be able for rearing properly his child, the YI advices «profitable to resist bandits», say «better resist the levy», beter go far with all your family like a flock of geese.

For a child is better to have his father with him that to have a father lost in action. Better a living goose that a died hero.

I believe that the YI has not always the voice of the powerful.

And last, male geese are most interested in sexual affairs, they get a wife once in the life, but how many times do they use to do his things with her?

The meaning of JIAN is another story (1) but here a litlle chinese tonge twister:

JUNG, WHEN YOUNG, SANG A SONG
WHAT THE SONG DID JUNG SING WHEN YOUNG?

Hong-Jian (the approaching goose)

HONG JIAN
Jung (when) young
or the Young Jung

The GOOSE
Doc. Gus
Dr. Gustav Jung

Yours,

Charly

__________________________________
(1) jian as adjective means GRADUAL, as adverb GRADUALLY, but see what Lin Yutang says when a VERB:

(1) (AC) flow into...
(2) Moisten, soak... saturate...
(3) Imbue, instil ... (AC) inspire...
From: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%ba%a5&category=wholerecord

The river of Hexagram 53

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