Please Read.

answeredquestions · Feb 24, 2010

From Jane English -
(The lady who made the yarrow stalks I use)

"The probability of getting a changing yin line is much smaller with yarrow than with the coins, because there is only a one in four chance of getting a 9 on your first division, whereas with the coins it is always 50-50.

The I Ching was created for the yarrow stalk method and gives different readings with the coins."

From the introduction of Richard Wilhelm's translation -
(Which I hold in high regards)

"The procedure was regarded as mysterious, however, simply in the sense that the manipulation of the yarrow stalks make it possible for the unconscious in man to become active.

All the individuals are not equally fitted to consult the oracle. It requires a clear and tranquil mind, receptive to the cosmic influences hidden in the kingdom, these were considered to be related to the sources of life. The stalks were derived from sacred plants."

But he does give a description of how to use the coins too.

??????????????

hilary · Feb 24, 2010

The I Ching was indeed made for a yarrow stalk method. However, we don't have the actual method it was made for - just a later reconstruction which may or may not have the same probabilities as the original. I believe the three coin method's about the same age as the yarrow one we have.

So I think you just choose the method of consultation that's the best fit for you, and helps you to create the best state of mind for consultation. (Beads, for me, though I also sometimes use my yarrow stalks from Jane.

)

Trojina · Feb 24, 2010

answeredquestions said:
[B

From the introduction of Richard Wilhelm's translation -
(Which I hold in high regards)

"The procedure was regarded as mysterious, however, simply in the sense that the manipulation of the yarrow stalks make it possible for the unconscious in man to become active.

]

it was mysterious because it was so damn complicated and time consuming by the time you'd finished you'd forgotten what the original question was :rofl:

Sure the unconscious was active, you'd fall asleep by the time you'd shuffled the stalks into piles.

looking at the poll I'm suprised at the proportion who use yarrow stalks...well okay its only 3 but i didn't think hardly anyone used them these days

answeredquestions · Feb 24, 2010

trojan said:
it was mysterious because it was so damn complicated and time consuming by the time you'd finished you'd forgotten what the original question was Sure the unconscious was active, you'd fall asleep by the time you'd shuffled the stalks into piles.

You have to be joking. (sorry, just wanted to use that mad smilie guy real bad. he is funny looking)

But why I say this is it only takes 10 minutes to get an answer. It is really fullfilling to take a little bit of time out for an answer. When you use yarrow, you end up splitting the stalks between 2 hands 18 times. (three per line) Everytime I split them, I say my question outloud a couple times, because that is the moment of "chance".

And every time I am amazed at how things line up.

peace,
answeredquestions

bradford · Feb 25, 2010

Hilary is correct here- the yarrow method that we have dates only from the Song Dynasty (12th Cent), The coin method that we have now is only a little bit older, from the Tang, or so I've read.

I did a preliminary study of 73 Zhou Dynasty divination records, including the Zuozhuan, presumably all done with Yarrow, and got the following frequencies:
6-51
7-134
8-152
9-44
This was only a preliminary study, but it suggests that the old yarrow method yielded results a lot closer to the Tang Dynasty or modern coin method. I know some believers will argue that statistics mean nothing when it comes to divination, but I don't buy it. It is only within the normal background probability that the extraordinary means anything.

Trojina · Feb 25, 2010

answeredquestions said:
You have to be joking. (sorry, just wanted to use that mad smilie guy real bad. he is funny looking)

But why I say this is it only takes 10 minutes to get an answer. It is really fullfilling to take a little bit of time out for an answer. When you use yarrow, you end up splitting the stalks between 2 hands 18 times. (three per line) Everytime I split them, I say my question outloud a couple times, because that is the moment of "chance".

And every time I am amazed at how things line up.

peace,
answeredquestions

Oh it only takes you 10 minutes ? Whenever i tried it it used to take much longer than that

Sparhawk · Feb 25, 2010

trojan said:
Oh it only takes you 10 minutes ? Whenever i tried it it used to take much longer than that

Well, when you get used to quickies, the real thing always seems to take much longer...

fkegan · Feb 25, 2010

Hi answeredquestions,

I assume you have your yarrow stalks from Jane English widow of Gia-fu Feng. Yarrow is a wild growing weed in California (Jane lives on or near Mt. Shasta in CA now I believe). However, I also tend to feel a sacredness about yarrow stalks. The classmate of mine who introduced me to the I Ching sent me a set of Yarrow stalks when he moved to CA for graduate school. Very special, though the actual yarrow is just growing on the hillsides.

Back in the day, when I was doing many oracles a day, I tried to slow down my casting by insisting on using the yarrow stalks. However, I found that the outcome could be determined by counting out just one of the split bundles, and by breaking the bundle with one small part and the other much larger, the yarrow technique could be done as quickly as throwing coins--so I went back to coins.

Probability is a very Western notion. It requires two fundamental assumptions:

1) That all possible options are equally likely to occur and
2) The relevant sample size to consider is large.

Even the most committed probability type knows that each time you flip (or cast a coin) that single flip is unknowable in its outcome. Probabilities only come to play in terms of averages of many flips taken together.

In divination, you are seeking your one unique answer to your one question. It violates even probability theory to see any connection between a single flip or unique oracle and the ultimate averages. Those who believe in probability believe it must be the background of if not each unique oracle at least the universe of oracle casting. Those who believe in the sacredness of the unique personal event and relationship to the Infinite find each oracle cast its own gift.

Not so much a matter requiring warning to all. Those who care about such issues have heard the arguments and come to their own views. Those who just cast the oracle find their results fit exactly to their personal relationship with the Oracle Spirit or the randomness of the non-scientific as is their expectation.

Frank

Trojina · Feb 25, 2010

sparhawk said:
Well, when you get used to quickies, the real thing always seems to take much longer...

i spot a double entendre :rofl:

but casting with coins seems to take me a good ten minutes...so whats a quickie to one person is a er marathon to another ..i guess it all depends on your stamina levels and how fast you can do it :rofl:

answeredquestions · Feb 25, 2010

fkegan said:
In divination, you are seeking your one unique answer to your one question. It violates even probability theory to see any connection between a single flip or unique oracle and the ultimate averages. Those who believe in probability believe it must be the background of if not each unique oracle at least the universe of oracle casting.

This strikes a cord with me.

btw, thanks Frank.

What I was going to say, I believe goes with the above quote.
Basically, I believe and have a feeling, that the Book of Changes itself, the way it is structured, and the way the hexagrams are composed, creates a bit of probability on purpose.

Like, with the hexagram The Creative(Hex. 1), which is composed of all Yang lines. If you got all yang lines in your reading, how probable is that?

Even more so, how probable is it that you get all Yang lines that are changing? (Old Yangs) That would mean The Creative(Hex. 1), turns into The Receptive(Hex. 2)

I believe this is harder to achieve...
Here is example of just what bradford posted:

bradford said:
I did a preliminary study of 73 Zhou Dynasty divination records, including the Zuozhuan, presumably all done with Yarrow, and got the following frequencies:
6-51
7-134
8-152
9-44

I underlined with yarrow for a reason

So, lets say those are accurate numbers, and based on my own experience, it seems about right... If I think about the ACTUAL MEANINGS of those hexagrams(1 and 2 and if you get the reading. (1-1.2.3.4.5.6>2) that is something symbolizing something that is very powerful or something rare.

So I believe that the probability is there for a purpuse, just like some things in life are easy to achieve, some aren't.

I think that the probability that is in the Book of Changes Readings, is a mirror to the universal probabiliy of all things. Just like the Book of Changes is a microcosm of the elemental universe, so is it's probabilities.

Peace,
answeredquestions

Sparhawk · Feb 25, 2010

trojan said:
i spot a double entendre

A double entendre? Moi? With you? You are surely mistaken. :rofl:

but casting with coins seems to take me a good ten minutes..

TEN MINUTES FOR COINS?!?!

Do you live in a penthouse, throw the coins to the street, and use the stairs?? :rofl:

so whats a quickie to one person is a er marathon to another ..i guess it all depends on your stamina levels

With all that exercise I don't think you have a stamina problem...

Trojina · Feb 25, 2010

sparhawk said:
TEN MINUTES FOR COINS?!?! Do you live in a penthouse, throw the coins to the street, and use the stairs??

doesn't everyone ? :flirt:

answeredquestions · Feb 25, 2010

trojan said:

.

Trojina · Feb 25, 2010

answeredquestions said:
.

and your point was......? :rofl:

answeredquestions · Feb 25, 2010

you figure it out

Trojina · Feb 25, 2010

answeredquestions said:
you figure it out

you can delete your own posts saving you the necessity of leaving a dot...unless the dot actually meant something..

answeredquestions · Feb 25, 2010

.
I don't mind the dot trojan

Trojina · Feb 25, 2010

heh heh and a damn fine dot it is too

answeredquestions · Feb 25, 2010

Thanks to everyone who Chimed in on the Yarrow/Coins dilema.

I am sticking with my yarrow cause I get such good vibes for them, they way they feel and the time spent.

But I would be open to someone else doing a reading for me with another method.

.......... Oh and did I say thanks

fkegan · Feb 25, 2010

sparhawk said:
A double entendre? Moi? With you? You are surely mistaken.

Sparhawk only starts counting the entendre at triples at least.

TEN MINUTES FOR COINS?!?! Do you live in a penthouse, throw the coins to the street, and use the stairs??

Penthouse casting is totally mystical since telling which are your three coins and where they rolled to with all that energy and momentum requires Divine intervention.

But I would be open to someone else doing a reading for me with another method.

Hi answeredquestions,

Using yarrow stalks that have sacred value for you; using a slow, meditative process with your questions, and valuing the Oracles that result are all good things.
Hilary has a service where she does Yi Oracle reading for her clients. In general most of us prefer each person find their own hexagram patterns and then post in Shared Readings for help interpreting.

However, I will split the difference with you. I developed a technique where you just think of two natural numbers 1 to 64 either the same number twice or two different numbers. If your knowledge of I Ching hexagrams is such or your belief that some are too good or bad to be trusted to say, then one just needs to go into a meditative place within attending to your breathing and heart beat and the two numbers will appear on their own inside you. That is another way to cast the oracle that minimizes issues raised by yarrow or coins or probability distributions...

Frank

answeredquestions · Mar 1, 2010

Thanks Frank - That is an interesting concept of meditation to get a number.

fkegan · Mar 1, 2010

answeredquestions said:
Thanks Frank - That is an interesting concept of meditation to get a number.

It is amazing as an experience. You get to watch the divination occur through your mind's eye. It also is an effective party game. It is a simple and easy conversation to start and it ends up describing through the Yi Oracle what is it you need to know of this person at this time and place. Sometimes it is just polite, sometimes it is totally intimate.

Frank

answeredquestions · Mar 1, 2010

I like the idea of it being intimate in all sorts of ways. The I ching is such a doorway to me. Not for everyone (although that would be nice). I like the idea of sharing the wisdom of it in an intimate setting and doing readings with just a couple people in the room.

I could see how this could go different ways. Its actually something you could do, say, in an airport, to yourself, and no one would know. An, on the go, hands free way.

I could also see how it would be nice to get a room setup and have, say, a candle lit in the south, dim the other lights, and some other elements around (feng shui style) and make it easier to awaken your third eye and meditate for an answer.

I think I am going to try the second one when I get home

jesed · Mar 1, 2010

answeredquestions said:
"The probability of getting a changing yin line is much smaller with yarrow than with the coins, because there is only a one in four chance of getting a 9 on your first division, whereas with the coins it is always 50-50.

False

The yarrow and the coins has the same probabilities. Because both the yarrow and the coins use 3 subset of dual chances to achieve the final number (6-7-8 or 9)

Coin: you have 3 subsets of 2 options (each coin is a subset; each coin has only 2 options: tail or head)

Yarrow: you have 3 subsets of 2 options (each division is a subset; each division has only 2 posible results: 5 or 9 in the first division, 4 or 8 in the second and 4 or 8 oin the third)

Best wishes

answeredquestions · Mar 1, 2010

jesed - Thanks for the insight. Trying to understand all the different methods. I am a bit focused (right now) on how the whole process works. I want to get past all of this, and just focus on doing readings, but for right now, I am having fun learning the different ways and also what makes them different OR .. the same

... a question...
So with the coins: you throw, get heads or tails, and that is like your 5 or 9?

then you do that 3 times to acheive each line?

I guess what I am trying to say is, when I use the yarrow, I "split" them a total of 18 times. 3 times per line. Do you throw the coins 18 times?

I don't have my book with me right now (at work) but I thought it said you throw 3 or 6 times or something like that? (is that 3 or 6 coins at a time to acheive 18?)

I need links/books on coin use.

jesed · Mar 1, 2010

answeredquestions said:
but I thought it said you throw 6 times or something like that? (is that 3 coins at a time?)

Yes. You toss 3 coins at the same time, for each line. That's why each line is the result of the addition of 3 subsets

answeredquestions · Mar 1, 2010

Thanks jesed. Can I ask you how you learned your coin using? Can you give me a link or book recommendation? I will also do some research myself, but it doesn't hurt to have another opinion.

jesed · Mar 1, 2010

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/consult/casting.php

answeredquestions · Mar 1, 2010

ok, thanks. And anyone else please recommend too.

I fear peoples nerves are at end with me not knowing this stuff, so I just want to get this tooth out and learn this stuff!!

- <-- that is supposed to be a person smiling with a tooth.

Basically I am in need of broadening my horizons in both: translations of hexagrams AND in technique of methods.

I want to invest in a couple other translations to have physically
since I don't want all of my info coming from the only I Ching book I have. (Wilhelm translation)
((WHICH I feel I might have a deep connection with and might always resort to it because of the way I came about getting it))

I wouldn't mind a few links from online hexagram descriptons and methods too. I don't think I want everything coming from information on this site tho. (of course I mean that in the best way possible, so no offense please)

answeredquestions · Mar 1, 2010

OH and jesed, do you find that you get Old Yang's/Yin's as often as Young with coins?

Please Read.

visitor

Administrator

Supporter

visitor

(deceased)

Supporter

One of those men your mother warned you about...

(deceased)

Supporter

visitor

One of those men your mother warned you about...

Supporter

visitor

Supporter

visitor

Supporter

visitor

Supporter

visitor

(deceased)

visitor

(deceased)

visitor

jesed

Guest

visitor

jesed

Guest

visitor

jesed

Guest

visitor

visitor