...life can be translucent

simon ian · Jul 24, 2010

regarding references btw, I have my Legge Dover edition, and this site basically.
Is Legge a good initial text? I do like the Victorian, straightforward non interpretational Mr Legge I must confess.

bradford · Jul 24, 2010

simon ian said:
Is Legge a good initial text? .

Only if it's one of several.
I think it's a really bad idea to use any single text as primary.
Legge has lots of merit but it's inaccurate in a lot of places and very dated.
Same with Wilhelm, to about the same degree.

pocossin · Jul 24, 2010

Wilhelm:
Six in the third place means:
Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon.
Misfortune.

Legge:
The third SIX, divided, shows how the host may, possibly, have many inefficient leaders. There will be evil.

Hatcher:
A militia likely to transport fatalities
Brutal

Why is Legge so different in this line?

pocossin · Jul 24, 2010

Legge considered the common translation but rejected it.

The symbolism of line 3 is very perplexing. P. Regis translates it:--'Milites videntur deponere sarcinas in curribus. Male.' Canon McClatchie has:--'Third-six represents soldiers as it were lying dead in their baggage carts, and is unlucky.' To the same effect was my own translation of the paragraph, nearly thirty years ago. But the third line, divided, cannot be forced to have such an indication. The meaning I have now given is more legitimate, taken character by character, and more in harmony with the scope of the hexagram, The subject of line 2 is the one proper leader of the host. But line 3 is divided and weak, and occupies the place of a strong line, as if its subject had perversely jumped over two, and perched himself above it to take the command. This interpretation also suits better in the 5th paragraph.

Wilhelm says:

Here we have a choice of two explanations. One points to defeat because someone other than the chosen leader interferes with the command; the other is similar in its general meaning, but the expression, "carries corpses in the wagon," is interpreted differently. At burials and at sacrifices to the dead it was customary in China for the deceased to whom the sacrifice was made to be represented by a boy of the family, who sat in the dead man's place and was honored as his representative. On the basis of this custom the text is interpreted as meaning that a "corpse boy" is sitting in the wagon, or, in other words, that authority is not being exercised by the proper leaders but has been usurped by others. Perhaps the whole difficulty clears up if it is inferred that there has been an error in copying. The character fan, meaning "all," may have been misread as shih, which means "corpse. " Allowing for this error, the meaning would be that if the multitude assumes leadership of the army (rides in the wagon), misfortune will ensue.

bradford · Jul 24, 2010

pocossin said:
Wilhelm:
Six in the third place means:
Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon.
Misfortune.

Legge:
The third SIX, divided, shows how the host may, possibly, have many inefficient leaders. There will be evil.

Why is Legge so different in this line?

Wilhelm combines two meanings for Yu, carry and wagon in "carries ... in the wagon"
which I just simplified to the one word "transports". Legge is just plain wrong here. In part he puts too much emphasis on "line characteristics" which are not germane to interpretation of the text. There is no mention of leaders or of inefficiency or of many-ness. The core meaning of yu is to uphold or carry from below, and this includes the idea of a populace upholding the nobility.

simon ian · Jul 24, 2010

I prefer the Legge interpretation.

He is seems to be more in sympathy with the movement of the lines. Something seems to shine through his interpretation, while the Wilhelm seems more plodding.

Legge seems to be in sympathy with his subject more, although obviously in deep 1899 denial about its obvious power. But occasionally his deep empathy is shown.

Coincidentally Heyboers and Hatchers PDF commentaries have just been emailed via Hilarys beginners course, about the usage of texts.

Im starting to check them out now. :bows:

simon ian · Jul 24, 2010

bradford said:
Wilhelm combines two meanings for Yu, carry and wagon in "carries ... in the wagon"
which I just simplified to the one word "transports". Legge is just plain wrong here. In part he puts too much emphasis on "line characteristics" which are not germane to interpretation of the text. There is no mention of leaders or of inefficiency.

Well then if he is plain wrong that does not help. Thanks.

sooo · Jul 24, 2010

bradford said:
The town in the Fan Yao is empty, vacant, abandoned, not unfortified. Where did you get "unfortified" for xu1? But it is there for the taking. The only obstacles are your own doubts.

Empty is always how I read it, but unfortified is empty of military presence, which I likened to military meeting no resistance upon entering. I don't think the idea is in the least far fetched in practical application. It's not only ones own doubts but also the restraining of unnecessary force. One has only to look to our Civil War and Viet Nam conflict history to see abuses of power upon entering an unfortified town. There's more than one way to look at "empty". Empty of what? Doesn't have to be absolutely vacant. Unfortified seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I think you're being a wee too literal here. How often does 7 pertain to a literal war or battle, as opposed to a gathering and employment of internal forces? And what could an empty town refer to? A situation which offers no resistance. It's also typically empty of real opportunity or achievement.

"Fight your way up by battling all enemies and using all your arms. But did you really make sure there are any enemies? An army needs not only fighting power, it needs intelligence too. So first of all evaluate the obstacles, fighting might very often not be the best solution. And fights based on emotions only makes things worse, so be careful about which arms can be used." LiSe

sooo · Jul 24, 2010

Maria, pertaining to the prospect of corrective hip or leg surgery, I think all this can be applied. It would require gathering your strength, and "being a real trooper", going through the ordeal.

What concerns me here are the corpses, and that the town is empty, offering no benefit. But it can also mean that the surgeon meets no resistance to a successful procedure, allowing you to progress.

If this was my situation, I'd do some soul searching, looking for corpses, because they clearly do not further progress here. Maybe the battle is against the undead. That which had died, yet lives in us still. (i.e. old, outdated ideas about yourself or your worldview, your spirit life, your vocation, your health and age, your life..)

LiSe said military intelligence is important: having as much information as possible helps you to make informed decisions.

sooo · Jul 24, 2010

Yet another, or perhaps an extension of a thought to consider, is the mental/emotional condition of a troop of soldiers who walk into an empty town. I note no qualifier written of what it's empty of, but let's say it's empty of resistance to 'pushing upward'. These soldiers have spend days, weeks, maybe months in the field, killing, maiming, watching their friends being killed and maimed, try to stay alive and un-maimed. These guys are amped up and programed for violence. Now, suddenly there no resistance. How can they so suddenly adapt to this, considering where they came from? Don't they still carry the dead with them, and maybe even become so familiar with death that it has no meaning anymore?

This is what the occasion requires to correct and adjust to. This is why a leader (general) must step up and take command.

peter2610 · Jul 24, 2010

7,3

Maremaria said:
so, my question was "what do i need to know about the surgery". and Yi said 7.3 >46

Maria, I strongly suspect that this answer is commenting on your inner doubts. I don't think it is giving a literal description of prognostic events. The I Ching repeatedly employs external material events as instructive metaphors for our thinking and internal emotional processes - that, for many, is its primary purpose.

If your proposed course of action were likely to result in disastrous harm, I expect you would be more likely to have received an answer within the context of Hex 12, Standstill or Hex 29, The Abyss, or Hex 60, Limitation - you would not, I suspect, have received an answer that included or came anywhere near Hex 46, Sheng.
In this context, Hex 7, The Army, is addressing your resolve and inner discipline in the face of the task ahead. It concerns issues of self-control and self-belief; it is closely related to its Qian Gua, Hex 8, Holding Together, which addresses belief, not with regards to the personal self, but with regards to abstract principal.

Third yin is a yin line in a yang position, without a resonate partner, it suffers repeated provocation from second yang. That means that in a state of restless agitation, it has no means of resolving its doubts and fears. In the context of The Army it is defeatist, it carries the 'corpses' of negative thinking and lack of resolve.

If we now apply correlative thinking, the meaning becomes even clearer. The fan yao, Hex 46.3, is indicating, in my opinion, that your fearful anticipation is unnecessary, there will be an easy victory, the goal will be achieved. The qian yao, 8.4, indicates the external realization of belief in the universal process - making abstract principal a material reality. The Cuo Yao, 13.3, suggests doubt and lack of trust in assimilating with universal process.

Giving anyone advice regarding a surgical procedure is not a simple matter. For my own part, this answer is blindingly clear but if you retain the slightest doubt I would strongly recommend that you undertake one or two follow-up readings. Peter

maremaria · Jul 24, 2010

thank you Bruce! I can relate to the points you made. and yes, certainly, the image of 7.3 is one I can't ignore, so I need to think a lot about it.

as for the 46.3, I check among other translations Tuck's where he says :
" the empty city signifies a place where people can move with complitely freedom" which in a way fits to the situation.

Overall, i can see a metaphorical and a literal side in my reading. which is the right one ?not sure yet.

maremaria · Jul 24, 2010

we were posting at the same time Peter.

if I read the answer as How to 46 ? by 7.3 ie change the leader its not a bad reading.
If i proceed to the surgery ( haven't make any specific arrangement yet, just exporing options) then I have be be for a while depended on others which sounds silly

but fits with the cropses as many descibe them here. This is something I really don't like and i can connect it with 46.3.

its a rich reading, a bit dark, but rich , imo.

thank you for your response.

p.s. with all this discussion about armies , i opened my" Art of war " pdf. I was scrolling and found this.

6. An army may march great distances without distress, if it marches through country where the enemy is not.

7. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended. You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked.

pocossin · Jul 24, 2010

maremaria said:
7. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.

The appearance of being undefended may be a bluff as well as a trap. Animals that are poisonous often move slowly, have bright colors, and expose themselves.

http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=36ji&no=32
The Strategy of Open City Gates

maremaria · Jul 24, 2010

pocossin said:
The appearance of being undefended may be a bluff as well as a trap. Animals that are poisonous often move slowly, have bright colors, and expose themselves.

http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=36ji&no=32
The Strategy of Open City Gates

too good to be true..

46.3 feels like that. you are prepared for a big fight and you find an empty city, but you look around to see where the enemy is hidden. yes?

maremaria · Jul 24, 2010

peter2610 said:
The fan yao, Hex 46.3, is indicating, in my opinion, that your fearful anticipation is unnecessary, there will be an easy victory, the goal will be achieved. Peter

Wonder if 46.3 has to do with expectations too ?

maremaria · Jul 24, 2010

peter2610 said:
This reading came up literally just five minutes ago, anyone care to put their angle on it?

Will I face a difficult situation if X and Y resume their relationship?
Answer: 7,3 > 46

its a yes/no question and i don't feel comfortable to give answer to such questions, but my impression is that it depends on what "resume" means. A repetition of the past, - 'corpses" or a new fresh begining

Does what you said to me resonates with your reading ?

peter2610 · Jul 24, 2010

Maremaria said:
Wonder if 46.3 has to do with expectations too ?

I think it has to do with expectation only in the sense that an anticipated difficulty turns out to be false. The goal of most military campaigns throughout history was to secure the strategic location and material resources of the "city," rather than the people inside it, although, if it was a punitive campaign, the intention would often be to destroy the city and slaughter its inhabitants.
An empty city presents the attacking army with an easy victory, not an empty one. Don't forget that the commentary on the line-text, the Small Image, states that there is no reason to hesitate. If the supporting correlations for this line, the fan yao, qian yao etc., were not clear then I would possibly question its meaning but as it stands I think it's pretty clear.

Does what you said to me resonates with your reading ?

Yes, very much so. It indicates that my anticipated fears about any difficulties caused by X and Y resuming their friendship are not justified. Their reunion should not lead to the situation/confrontation I was expecting.

bradford · Jul 25, 2010

Something that happened today that might relate to 07.3. I've sort of been on the lookout for fitness and nutrition books of late. Having got fat and lazy over the last few years I've started a program recently. As a former athlete I mostly know what needs to be done but new data might help. But I'm really suspicious of most commercial books. Health is such a commodity these days, and if it's more than that it's all about cosmetics, self-esteem and seduction, and the quality of the books shows that, and the intelligence of the average consumer, and making the author rich and famous. Well, the book that fell into my hands today was "U.S. Navy Seal Guide to Fitness and Nutrition." Of course I immediately thought of this thread.
Think of the militia that's in danger of carrying its dead into battle. In the light of the Zhi Gua (forget the Fan Yao for a moment), advance or promotion is by steps or grade, and in the militia, the reasons and criteria are serious, life or death. People are not promoted to boost their self-esteem, to reward their seniority or tenure, or to make the militia appear more competent. If they are, this is the "best seller" version of the diet and fitness book. You need training that you can count on, stuff that's tested right at the edge, that you can stake your life on. That means seasoned and well-tested information. That's the attitude that 07.3 is calling for. That image also has a lot to offer in understanding the internal lines of Gua 27 as well.

sooo · Jul 25, 2010

bradford said:
You need training that you can count on, stuff that's tested right at the edge, that you can stake your life on. That means seasoned and well-tested information. That's the attitude that 07.3 is calling for. That image also has a lot to offer in understanding the internal lines of Gua 27 as well.

This correlates well with intelligence gathering, spoken of earlier.

I've spent three years serving on-board with the Seals and other special forces. They simply don't come any more fit than that, nor any more team oriented. Each unit is as one being. The one thing missing from them was any hint of doubt. They were prepared to adjust to anything, anytime; which makes leadership integrated throughout the 'organism', not isolated in a captain's quarters.

maremaria · Jul 25, 2010

Thanks for sharing this example Brad It becomes more clear to me now. I couldn’t understand why for 7 is more appropriate to use the term Militia and not Army but I saw your note about Swiss militia . My country has a similar Militia since male citizens have to enroll into service compulsorily.

We are not talking for professional soldiers here.(Bruce explain it earlier but wasn’t completely clear to me.) we are talking about ordinary people that the called to act as soldiers. So , if I got it right, this is why the “misfortune” if they carry with them its dead during the battle. They act from the wrong ‘position” the one of the citizen, lets say and not as real soldiers. The circumstances are different here, there is a war , so in order to be efficient soldiers they have to leave behind their other identity. thus the uncertainty

thanks again to all of you. You have been immensely helpful.
:bows:

charly · Aug 2, 2010

maremaria said:
...
My query has to do with an old injury in line 3... err, i meant at my hip
that injury obsure the movement and if i don't take care of it perhaps it becomes worst or at best painful.

I didn't want at the beggining to share that, (hope you can understand why,) but then what I found at line's 3 position found made me think I should share it with you. It the least i can do to say thank you for your help

so, my question was "what do i need to know about the surgery". and Yi said 7.3 >46

one senario it doesn't sounds good, with all those cropses and deaths etc, lol You know OMG !!!
but the positive one , taking into account hex 46 perhaps sounds promising.
...

María:

I apologize for answering so late, but I have little acces to Internet last times.

I believe that for you both Hex. are positive. Don't worry for 7.3 and remember H.7.

7.3:

師 shi1: army / divisiion / brigade // teacher / master / expert (1)
或 huo4: maybe / perhaps / might / possibly
輿 yu2: carriage / sedan chair // to carry / to transport
尸 shi1: corpse / (2)
。
凶: xiong1 / fierce / terrible / ominous /
。

Observe the conditional sense:

ARMY MIGHT CARRY CORPSES
Maybe an historic allusion, but in your case, instead of army I prefer EXPERT.

EXPERTS MIGHT CARRY CORPSES.
But true experts made all the possible for avoiding such a possibility.
All depends upon the reliability of the specialist.

OMINOUS
Say UNFORTUNATE if it happens the worse, NOT ALWAYS.

Now see H.7:

師 shi1: army / divisiion / brigade // teacher / master / expert
貞 zhen1: chastity / perseverance // divination / omen
。
丈 zhang4: a measure [3.3 meters] / tall // elder / senior // husband
人 ren2: man / person / people /
吉 ji2: lucky / fortunate / propitious
。
无 wu2: without / not / no
咎 jiu4: blame / mistake / wrong
。

EXPERT DIVINATION
The prognostication of the diviner.

HUSBAND PROPITIOUS.
Good for getting a husband.
Also might be a LUCKY HUSBAND, say, a good one.

NO WRONG
Not a mistake.
Even propitious for LOVE.

Of course there are also the military senses about the necessity of being aware of goals and possibilities, of having a strategy, a clear mind.

All the best,

Charly

__________________
(1) specialist in medecine, divination, etc.
(2) the old character depicts a MAN FACING LEFT or a MAN SHOWING THE BOTTOM, maybe using nakedness as a defiant attitude. Desperate fighters, only the drive for warrying o for resisting, without a clear mind disposition, without a strategy.

P.D.

H.46:
升 sheng1: to raise / to hoist / to promote / to ascend / to climb
元 yuan2: dollar / primary / first /
亨 heng1: feast / celebration / prosperous /
。
用 yong4: to apply / to use /
見 jian4: to see / to meet
大 da4: big / great
人 ren2: man / person / people /
。
勿 wu4: do not /
恤 xu4: worry / give relief / sympathy /
。
南 nan2: south / southern
征 zheng1: attack / levy // journey / trip
吉 ji2: lucky /
。 .

TO ASCEND: MAIN CELEBRATION.
DO MEET THE GREAT MAN. [the surgeon?, the husband?]
DON'T WORRY
[A] SOUTHERN JOURNEY [WILL BE] LUCKY

Have I also said that to climb a mountain means to f_ck?

Ch.

maremaria · Aug 3, 2010

Thank you for your input.

I see it as you said here:

QUOTE=charly;120817]
Of course there are also the military senses about the necessity of being aware of goals and possibilities, of having a strategy, a clear mind.

All the best,

Charly

charly said:
TO ASCEND: MAIN CELEBRATION.
DO MEET THE GREAT MAN. [the surgeon?, the husband?]
DON'T WORRY
[A] SOUTHERN JOURNEY [WILL BE] LUCKY

Have I also said that to climb a mountain means to f_ck?

Ch.

rodaki · Aug 20, 2010

hi everyone

what follows is rather gloomy but when I came across this photo it reminded me very much of this line and the discussion here . . . kinda made it come alive in a way . . for myself the way I see this now is that carrying the dead is an honorable act (and more or less bound to happen in some way) but until it is acknowledged and laid to rest there's no stepping up to a new phase
Not sure if Maria sees this -hope she does . . being a visual person herself, it might help her with her reading

p.s.: The photo is actually called "Carrying the skeleton" and it was meant as a tribute to those who died during the war in Yugoslavia

jfas · Feb 15, 2011

bradford said:
I think it's important not to soften the word shi, "corpses" or fatalities with new age and feel-good interpretations. At least in the metaphor, someone's gonna die here if they don't pull their act together. And with this kind of incompetence they will be accidently killing each other. I'm not sure if the problem is in the ranks, either. Maybe the wrong people are being promoted fro the wrong reasons.

I agree. I've never interpreted this line as anything but that someone utterly incompetent is in charge.

Lavalamp · Nov 1, 2011

Old thread, sorry. But my feeling is 7.3 in a relationship context can refer to what is metaphorically dead - past hurts or other emotional baggage we are not yet totally healed from, divorce, a breakup etc. When this is the only changing line it changes to 46 Sheng, which I think indicates that we can have success as it is a favorable time without obstruction, if we stay with our allies, get down to work, and see authoritative people.

mythili · Nov 4, 2011

The way in which this line has worked for me - its a time of transition. To make the transition successfully, you HAVE to let the past die completely, if you dont do that, you could end up losing any real chance of a successful transition. It isnt easy to let that past die - there might have been a lot of emotional or other difficulty associated with it. But make the conscious effort to NOT work from that basis again, dont bring up any of that stuff again, and you could make a new and much better time possible.

bradford · Nov 4, 2011

There are two sides to this. Yes, not letting go of the past is just hauling dead weight around. But not learning from the past and bringing the lessons along with you means that you should leave room in that wagon for a lot more corpses along the way.

sooo · Nov 5, 2011

I understand nothing. Therefore let the young carry the dead, and I shall carry nothing.

If I concern myself with the dead, I am playing as a child. That too is nothing.

When I wake from a dream, those I played with are nothing,

I too am nothing but the dreams I play with

and the wagon which carries them.

chingching · Nov 5, 2011

I love that sooo !

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