So yesterday, I was told the surgical staff meeting decided I needed pancreatic surgery. I live very very far away from the center where I have been monitored and I cannot even have a telephone conversation with the designated surgeon to gather some basic info. I would have to schlep back to the capital yet again (cost, time, logistics etc.) to meet the scalpel holder. After all, baring medical concerns, this takes LOTS of organization, esp when far away, with animals to consider, recuperation time, and no family to take up the slack.

So I'm not rushing into anything. Just replied "no go during spring/summer, forget it, we'll see about it in the rotten fall and winter months."

So about 10 minutes ago (12:20 pm Paris time) I asked the Yi: what should i know about having surgery on my pancreas:
64.2.4 to 23
Don't rush into it, line up your ducks, get strong ice to walk on, then when all is lined up go attack it and (23) strip the sucker away.

What leaves me quixotic is the line Three years go round, and there are rewards in the great city.
What is the Yi talking about in this context?

Thanks for your insights

(PS: new dog - other thread - is doing GREAT!)

Glad to hear the dog is doing so well!

I agree with you about the reading. 64 > 23, "Not Yet Across's Stripping Away," preparing for the surgery, getting the timing right.

(Caveat: we're not doctors. Do they think it's safe to wait?)

Line 2 says "Your wheels dragged back. Constancy, good fortune" (Hilary's translation). That does seem to say what you think it says: no need to rush, nothing wrong with slowing down and dragging your feet/wheels. (See caveat, though!)

Line 4
'Constancy, good fortune, regrets vanish.
The Thunderer uses this to attack the Demon Country.
Three years go round, and there are rewards in the great city.'

One of our members has called this "The demons of before" (vs. the "demons of after" in hexagram 63). I'm quite fond of this way of thinking about it . What could "demons of before" mean? All the demons that haunt a person before something, while preparations are being made, before action is taken - Yi seems to be saying you can handle those with "constancy."

"Three years go round, and there are rewards in the great city."

There are various time periods mentioned in the I Ching, such as:
- one day ("the end of the day" / "a/the whole day" / "in the course of a day")
- tomorrow ("daybreak")
- three days
- "the seventh day"
- ten days (a week, in ancient China)
- "the eighth month" (in 19's Oracle only, said to be the month of harvest)
- three years
- ten years (said to represent pretty much "forever," I think)

I think it's usually said to see those comparatively, not necessarily literally (though there's nothing stopping them from being literal, depending on circumstances).

In this case it might be describing your plans: you'll deal with this in a fairly long time from now, but you're not postponing it indefinitely.

It might be saying if you can handle the demons for "three years" - I don't know, could that mean stopgap measures to treat / band-aid whatever is wrong? - then you'll have the needed surgery "in the great city" (where the "scalpel holder" works? - I'm quite amused by that description, by the way).

Obviously your doctors' opinions will be more important than a Yi reading, but I agree it's hard to see anything here which says it's dangerous to wait, if you do necessary things in the meantime.

Also, Hilary says in her commentary that "Demon Country" represents "a long-standing, recurring issue." (What all this referred to, historically, was the constant menace of the Shang: "Demon Country" was apparently the Zhou region bordering Shang territory, so it was unstable and constantly under attack). Does that fit your problem? Has it been a problem for a long time already, could that be why it's okay to wait a while longer for surgery?

I have no idea what "regrets vanish" could mean to you, though.

Ah, Liselle, you are so kind to answer me (again!). Yes, I am 5 years post discovery of this tumor, so it's a long standing issue. It's a type of precancerous tumor that they have some perspective on up to 5 years after diagnosis, but it's the blind leading the blind thereafter. It's grown a bit (and was already large to start, thus in the high risk/close monitoring category). That + the time line > I'd probably end up with pancreatic cancer at some point in the rest of my lifetime. Ergo, want to operate. Yet that does not mean another can't return or that I am free and clear (removing the entire pancreas is not being discussed at this stage and would be a dead no way for me).
I am not thinking of waiting 3 years for surgery. By that point, chances are it would be a much more extensive procedure. Quacks here are not terribly forthcoming, sadly. Basically the conversation was: we recommend surgery. My response? Well see, forget it for spring and summer, we'll talk about it later in the year in yucky weather. They just sent the contact info to make an appointment with the surgeon. End of story. My list of questions hit dead air.
I should think the Demon Country is the tumor. It is a constant menace of course. There are no intermediary steps or treatment other than surgery. I have no idea what "regrets vanish" could mean either..

(We just came back from dog school. He aced them all!)

flashlight said:

Yes, I am 5 years post discovery of this tumor, so it's a long standing issue. It's a type of precancerous tumor that they have some perspective on up to 5 years after diagnosis, but it's the blind leading the blind thereafter.

Click to expand...

Aaand so...they waited until the 5-year mark to recommend the inevitable surgery?? Am I understanding that correctly? I mean, it's all fine and well that it's not an emergency - and for all I know you also wanted to wait, which is your prerogative - but...?

I am not thinking of waiting 3 years for surgery.

Click to expand...

Oh, no, I saw and understood that - just until fall or winter.

I don't know your circumstances - do you have to have it done there, wherever "there" is? Could you come to the U.S.? (Is that utterly ridiculous? Just waving my hands in the air...)

P.S. Yay smart doggy!

Without going into long, boring, medical details, the international protocol on these puppies is watch, monitor, wait. Organ preservation trumps radical measures lest no choice (They had "offered" surgery in 2015, to lighten the monitoring). Everywhere in the world but US, which is, Let's Do a Total Whipple and leave you Diabetic even if it is Not absolutely Necessary. Had had a 2nd op in the US btw.

The surgery was/is not inevitable at the 5 year mark. It's bec mine was big and grew a bit. No other icky scary changes. Thus, I suppose, why they are not putting a gun to my head. It would seem (well, if I could talk to the effing surgeon without having to make a trip to do it, grrr) that it may still be possible for this to be a more circumscribed surgery. That's obviously preferable to losing that vital organ and becoming diabetic. Wait too long, if it grows more or turns icky scary, then that option might go out the window.

Doing it in the US? Sure, if I sell my house, cash in my retirement fund, I might just be able to pay for the surgery itself, not the hospitalization or the post op care...and become homeless to face a long recovery process. (Irony keeps me going during tough times!) I had gotten a quote along with the consult. I nearly gagged. Then busted out laughing. And if logistics are already tough here as a solo person, crossing the pond wouldn't make it easier.

It would happen here. Across the pond. Heck, we have a longer life expectancy than the US at this point and folks don't end up homeless to get quality medical care

(Off to dinner to celebrate the near end of April - it's been a rather straining month all told and a pleasant evening is "just" what the doctor ordered LOL!)

Oh, I see. This is what happens when I opine on things I know less than nothing about, sorry :bag:. No, no one wants self-induced, unnecessary diabetes, or U.S. medical bills...

I'm actually not happy at all to hear that U.S. doctors would opt for premature surgery.

No, relax, Liselle, you just asked logical questions founded on what you know. That's all each of one does (including translating the Yi!) All my US friends ask the same question and lobby for me to come get taken care of there, not realizing other parts of the world are perfectly capable of providing quality health care (and sometimes be on the cutting edge of breakthroughs).

Yes, that is the protocol in the US, even at the top pancreatic centers in NY with lots of experience. They prefer to nix all risk of pancreatic cancer, even if it means the patient's overall health and quality of life tanks. Their risk-benefit assessment is quite different from the rest of the world's. Wonder whether it is not linked to a fear of liability too? Don't know. Hypothesis.