I Ching and Female

my_key · Feb 25, 2022

IrfanK said:
So, all of a sudden, the powerful woman becomes the "inferior thing that seems so harmless and inviting," a symbolic representation of the inferior man.

I can liken these words by Wilhelm of 44 to a situation of an alcoholic who having just increased his resolve (43) to give up the drink is being challenged by his addiction to just have one small drink. Resting on the new found virtue ( the danger expressed in IrfanK's quote) that has been won so far there is a waver......'Surely, just one drink will be alright. That's all I need to take the edge off my craving'.

The old craving will never leave. It will over time become less prevalent. Marrying it now will only lead to disaster.

The trouble here as Wilhelm goes on to say is

The inferior man rises only because the superior man does not regard him as dangerous, and so lends him power. If he were resisted from the first, he could never gain influence.

So it is again yang who is the inspiring force in this dance towards 'coming off the wagon'. Yin sees the gap made available (the strong and light-giving element had not in turn come half way.) by yang stepping back and yin is now thrust into activity, following the new lead.

Huang reports that that one of the commentaries states

Yin is the most gentle and submissive; when put in motion it is strong and firm.
Yin is the most quiet and still; when taking action, it is able to reach a definite goal.

So here, without the use of any pronoun, is confirmation that when in 44 yin is drawn into action it becomes strong and focussed on manifesting that which yang has initiated. In this situation yin is one tough cookie to contend with.

IrfanK · Feb 26, 2022

my_key said:
I can liken these words by Wilhelm of 44 to a situation of an alcoholic who having just increased his resolve (43) to give up the drink is being challenged by his addiction to just have one small drink. Resting on the new found virtue ( the danger expressed in IrfanK's quote) that has been won so far there is a waver......'Surely, just one drink will be alright. That's all I need to take the edge off my craving'.

The old craving will never leave. It will over time become less prevalent. Marrying it now will only lead to disaster.

The trouble here as Wilhelm goes on to say is

So it is again yang who is the inspiring force in this dance towards 'coming off the wagon'. Yin sees the gap made available (the strong and light-giving element had not in turn come half way.) by yang stepping back and yin is now thrust into activity, following the new lead.

Huang reports that that one of the commentaries states

So here, without the use of any pronoun, is confirmation that when in 44 yin is drawn into action it becomes strong and focussed on manifesting that which yang has initiated. In this situation yin is one tough cookie to contend with.

That would indeed be a great interpretation to an inquiry related to addiction. And it made me reflect a bit more on Wilhelm's commentary. There is something a bit subversive about it. You could see it as a warning about regarding the powerful woman as something weak and submissive. If you go on thinking about her like that, if you think you can control her, you're in for a sorry surprise.

Hmmm. Maybe I should look at 37 again, too.

37.2 She should not folly her whims. She must attend within to the food. Perseverance brings good fortune.

37.4 She is the treasure of the house. Great good fortune.

my_key · Feb 26, 2022

IrfanK said:
That would indeed be a great interpretation to an inquiry related to addiction. And it made me reflect a bit more on Wilhelm's commentary. There is something a bit subversive about it. You could see it as a warning about regarding the powerful woman as something weak and submissive. If you go on thinking about her like that, if you think you can control her, you're in for a sorry surprise.

Hmmm. Maybe I should look at 37 again, too.

37.2 She should not folly her whims. She must attend within to the food. Perseverance brings good fortune.

37.4 She is the treasure of the house. Great good fortune.

View attachment 4615

Yes, Wilhelm's commentary leaves, for me, much to be desired at times. Especially when in 44 it looks like there is a strong case that it's all down to yang and the superior man not recognising that the inferior man is flexing his muscles and is dangerous.

Going back to basics Wilhelm's commentary on Hex 2 states " there is a clearly defined hierarchic relationship between the two principles" and later confirms " the Receptive is just as important as the Creative" and that " the Reactive must be activated and led by the Creative; then it is productive of good. Only when it abandons this position and tries to stand as an equal side by side with the Creative, does it become evil".

Now that's the kicker that I think contributed to much of the bad press printed around yin as many people down the ages do not full appreciate what evil is or what yin is.

Modern day perspectives around the differences of leadership (innovation and ethical actions that promote personal development) and management ( based in organisation and hierarchical communication chains of command). Management works top down; leadership works bottom up / centre out. The latter being more like plant a seed and support it's growth. Wilhelm in his time, I do not imagine, was exposed to these modern day perspectives. If he had been he would have known that the qualities of leading and following are becoming less commonly viewed in modern forward-looking organisations as in any way hierarchical.

In general, Huang's commentary carries a much softer tone as he explores the Tao of Heaven and the Tao of Earth.

Wilhelm's opening sentence of his commentary of 37.2 clearly comes as being of his time and rooted in Chinese cultural views,

"The wife must always be guided by the will of the master of the house, be he father, husband, or grown son."

Here, though, Huang paints a picture of "the ideal place for a housewife" i.e. being at the centre of nurturing all things. That, he says, is due to her docility and gentleness and that there is good fortune in this line.

So having had a good influence at the centre of the inner household (37.2) at 37.4 these influences spread out over the threshold and into the outer world."The one at this place is gentle and modest, she is able to walk in the central path and thus enrich the household. There is great good fortune."

Nothing evil in any of this. Yes, if yin is unable to fulfil it's appointed role then there is likely to be disharmony, just the same as if yang doesn't.

My perspective is that if people are looking for a balanced write up of the yin principle then Wilhelm is not the best reference to pore over. At the very least it needs to be read in conjunction with other texts,

IrfanK · Feb 27, 2022

my_key said:
Yes, Wilhelm's commentary leaves, for me, much to be desired at times. Especially when in 44 it looks like there is a strong case that it's all down to yang and the superior man not recognising that the inferior man is flexing his muscles and is dangerous.

Going back to basics Wilhelm's commentary on Hex 2 states " there is a clearly defined hierarchic relationship between the two principles" and later confirms " the Receptive is just as important as the Creative" and that " the Reactive must be activated and led by the Creative; then it is productive of good. Only when it abandons this position and tries to stand as an equal side by side with the Creative, does it become evil".

Now that's the kicker that I think contributed to much of the bad press printed around yin as many people down the ages do not full appreciate what evil is or what yin is.

Modern day perspectives around the differences of leadership (innovation and ethical actions that promote personal development) and management ( based in organisation and hierarchical communication chains of command). Management works top down; leadership works bottom up / centre out. The latter being more like plant a seed and support it's growth. Wilhelm in his time, I do not imagine, was exposed to these modern day perspectives. If he had been he would have known that the qualities of leading and following are becoming less commonly viewed in modern forward-looking organisations as in any way hierarchical.

In general, Huang's commentary carries a much softer tone as he explores the Tao of Heaven and the Tao of Earth.

Wilhelm's opening sentence of his commentary of 37.2 clearly comes as being of his time and rooted in Chinese cultural views,

Here, though, Huang paints a picture of "the ideal place for a housewife" i.e. being at the centre of nurturing all things. That, he says, is due to her docility and gentleness and that there is good fortune in this line.

So having had a good influence at the centre of the inner household (37.2) at 37.4 these influences spread out over the threshold and into the outer world."The one at this place is gentle and modest, she is able to walk in the central path and thus enrich the household. There is great good fortune."

Nothing evil in any of this. Yes, if yin is unable to fulfil it's appointed role then there is likely to be disharmony, just the same as if yang doesn't.

My perspective is that if people are looking for a balanced write up of the yin principle then Wilhelm is not the best reference to pore over. At the very least it needs to be read in conjunction with other texts,

I don't think it's mostly about the Wilhelm's own attitudes. He was a good and faithful servant who tried to describe a particular interpretive tradition, one which had prevailed in the imperial court for about 1000 years, since the Song dynasty. I remember Harmen Mesker saying that some of his commentaries are basically a direct translation, or a very close paraphrase, of one particular book that was considered to be the standard reference on the Yi for centuries, written sometime in .... 16th century? I forget, it's all in Smith's The I Ching: A Biography. It wasn't the the only tradition that existed, there were all sorts of folk traditions and regional traditions as well, but it was pretty influential and carried a lot of prestige, being associated with the Chinese royal court.

Of course, he saw what he translated through the eyes of an extremely liberal, white, male, protestant missionary of the early 20th century. Liberal, sure, but ideas about men and women were still different then. Jung also had pretty clear ideas of what men and women were, and those ideas are pretty different from those current now.

So, Wilhelm is great for understanding how the Yi has been seen by a large number of users for about a thousand years. Then you need to read a bit on the context critics take on the bronze age, just to challenge all that a bit. Then add in a few late 20th and 21st century commentators, preferably including a few women who view the tradition with a critical eye. Hilary, for example. Then you sit back and realize that it's all still murky, but at least its a bigger, richer murk than before.

PS. Haha. I'm just sitting back, reflecting that it's me, my_key, and Charly that seem to be taking up this discussion and analyzing it. I wonder if Mary and the other women on this forum are even following this now? Haha. Funny. No criticism intended, either of myself or anyone else. But we men seem to have taken over this thread, haven't we? Well, that's the way things go.

IrfanK · Feb 27, 2022

my_key said:
My perspective is that if people are looking for a balanced write up of the yin principle then Wilhelm is not the best reference to pore over. At the very least it needs to be read in conjunction with other texts,

As @charly insinuated, it's quite possible to look at the Yi without even thinking about yin and yang. It's not really integral to the Yi, it's an idea that emerged about a thousand years after it was written. Probably. Who knows? But there's certainly no explicit mention of them in the Zhouyi itself. People have developed -- and are continuing to develop -- all sorts of ideas to try to understand it. Be interesting to see how people see it in 3022 AD.

surnevs · Feb 27, 2022

IrfanK, On #32

37.2 Nothing done on worth: food may be set forth. Augury auspicious.
37.4 A wealthy household. Very auspicious.
From Richard Rutt's Zhouyi, A bronze age document.
From this to Wilhelms translation: Remarkable.

marybluesky · Feb 28, 2022

surnevs said:
(? today female can do all of that as well, thank's to "industrial wonders")

It's another whole story from the I Ching's view on females (if it was about the survival, then the female who gives birth & nurtures the children should have occupied a high place which isn't the case).

I still don't know if that's the translation, commentary or the original text/system that humiliates women so much. If one day I'm convinced that it's the latter, I'd put the I Ching aside like any sexist religion/ system. Life is too short, I don't want to spend it on tolerating humiliations then just smiling & occupying myself with children (something older generations of women do when insulted by males, which I find disgusting. No offense

).

marybluesky · Feb 28, 2022

IrfanK said:
I wonder if Mary and the other women on this forum are even following this now? Haha. Funny. No criticism intended, either of myself or anyone else. But we men seem to have taken over this thread, haven't we? Well, that's the way things go.

You and Mr Key discuss about examples of the hamulating view the I Ching (Wilhelm commentary?) has on females.

Be happy that you men took over the thread. That's the way things should go in an I Ching forum

. Then what? Should I be happy because Wilhelm said that the wife should ignore her own desires and cooks food? :zzz:

I can't see what you're sad with. I do follow the discussion but have nothing to add.

my_key · Feb 28, 2022

IrfanK said:
I don't think it's mostly about the Wilhelm's own attitudes. He was a good and faithful servant who tried to describe a particular interpretive tradition, one which had prevailed in the imperial court for about 1000 years, since the Song dynasty.

Yes, he is. Also his work is still, for me, insightful and informative, partly because he has been such a faithful follower of the received text and associated wings.

IrfanK said:
So, Wilhelm is great for understanding how the Yi has been seen by a large number of users for about a thousand years. Then you need to read a bit on the context critics take on the bronze age, just to challenge all that a bit. Then add in a few late 20th and 21st century commentators, preferably including a few women who view the tradition with a critical eye. Hilary, for example. Then you sit back and realize that it's all still murky, but at least its a bigger, richer murk than before.

It's important to let the alchemical juices flow.

IrfanK said:
PS. Haha. I'm just sitting back, reflecting that it's me, my_key, and Charly that seem to be taking up this discussion and analyzing it. I wonder if Mary and the other women on this forum are even following this now? Haha. Funny. No criticism intended, either of myself or anyone else. But we men seem to have taken over this thread, haven't we? Well, that's the way things go.

I see threads as akin to conversation. Sometimes there are things to be said and at other times the urge to be silent and listen becomes more prevalent.

surnevs · Feb 28, 2022

On 18:40

- Harmen Mesker, in his video 'How (not) to consult the Book of Changes', to hexagram 37.2 ask:
".... but wait, what happened to the woman ? ...." (on 23:25 onward), because none of the Chinese characters contains that word. In Wang Bi's * commentary it points toward second 6 corresponding to fifth' 9 as perfectly fulfilling the correct meaning of what it is to be a wife (and I guess because the Judgement literary reads: "Augury favourable for woman" **, that second 6 is taken for such).

*) I Ching, Richard John Lynn, Columbia University Press, N.Y. 1994
**) Zhouyi, Richard Rutt, Routledge, N.Y. 2002

charly · Feb 28, 2022

IrfanK said:
... Hmmm. Maybe I should look at 37 again, too.

37.2 She should not folly her whims. She must attend within to the food. Perseverance brings good fortune.
37.4 She is the treasure of the house. Great good fortune.

Hi Irfan:

There are no women in 37.2 or 37.4, as can be seen here:

37.2
旡攸遂在中饋貞吉
wu2 you1 sui4 zai4 zhong1 kui4 zhen1 ji2
NOT FAR TO_SUCCEED AT CENTER COOCKED_MEAT OMEN LUCKY
Not going too far for fulfilling one’s dreams, better here ans now.
In the central place: offerings of coocked food for the ancestors.
That’s HOME (1)

37.4
富家大吉
fu4 jia1 da4 ji2
RICH FAMILY VERY LUCKY
Welthy family: very lucky
(2).

There is no 女 nü3 character even as a radical.

All thew best,

Charly
_______________________________________________
(1) Somebody may not agree with the glosses, but must agree that there is no woman in 37.2 line.
Maybe the former sense of «饋» was «to offer cooked food in a sacrificial ceremony», but «中饋» later became «Cooking as the WIFE´S JOB; also later used for "WIFE."» [CJKV Dictionary], probably as a consequence of the Yijing comentarial tradition.
(2) No comments. But families thar are not welthy, could not enjoy? (Soon 37.5).
Ch.

charly · Feb 28, 2022

For those interested in women´s roles in times of early Western Zhou I advise to read LisaRaphals: «Gendered Virtue Reconsidered. Notes from the Warring States and Han», chapter 10 of «The Sage and the Second Sex».
Regretably there is no preview in Google Books.

Will try to find some quotes.

Ch.

charly · Mar 1, 2022

charly said:
For those interested in women´s roles in times of early Western Zhou I advise to read LisaRaphals: «Gendered Virtue Reconsidered. Notes from the Warring States and Han», chapter 10 of «The Sage and the Second Sex».
Regretably there is no preview in Google Books.

Will try to find some quotes.

Ch.

Quoting Lisa Raphals:

charly · Mar 1, 2022

«Neither these statements nor the Analects overall clarify whether such state ments about ren applied to all people or to men only. Two passages do mention Confucius’s possible opinions of the capacities o f women. Analects 8.20 contains a statement that Shun governed the empire with five capable officials and King Wu with ten.
Confucius comments:
Talent is difficult [to find], is it not! It flourished through the period of Tang and Yu [Yao and Shun]. There was a woman amongst them, so the men (ren) were only nine.

This passage uses ren to refer specifically to men, in the Master’s dictum. It also indicates Confucius’s recognition, with no disapproval expressed, that one of King Wu’s ten ministers who ordered the state of Zhou was a woman.

Huang Kan’s (488-545 c.e.) commentary emphasizes the importance of this statement in clarifying Confucius’s view that the success of the Zhou depended on the talents of both men and women:

When he [Confucius] states clearly that there was a woman, he makes it clear that the flourishing of the Zhou dynasty was not due to the talents of men, it also relied on the abilities of women to help in the transformation of government.

Lisa Raphals: «Gendered Virtue Reconsidered»
Chapter 10 of «The Sage and the Second Sex» page 225.

IrfanK · Mar 1, 2022

So, I checked to see what Hilary had to say about 37.2 and 37.4:

No direction to pursue,
Stay in the centre and cook.
Constancy, good fortune. (37.2)

Enriching the home - great good fortune. (37.4)

No, no women in either of those lines, either. In fact, quite close to the translation that @charly posted above (although she reads more smoothly).

Come to think of it, I've met small indigenous communities in Indonesia where cooking falls into the category of men's work. Mind you, they still have very strong gender categories, and women don't always get the best end of the deal. But cooking isn't their job. No reason to assume that it would have been during the Zhou era, either. Possibly, possibly not.

surnevs · Mar 1, 2022

IrfanK, to me Hilary's translation is very neutral. The passages where doubt could be raised concerning discrimination is almost absent. Here it's important thou to say that I haven't read her book from A to Z, but until now.....

charly · Mar 2, 2022

IrfanK said:
... Come to think of it, I've met small indigenous communities in Indonesia where cooking falls into the category of men's work. Mind you, they still have very strong gender categories, and women don't always get the best end of the deal. But cooking isn't their job. No reason to assume that it would have been during the Zhou era, either. Possibly, possibly not.

Hi Irfan:

Just as I can't imagine Fu Hao using the broom or dusting the furniture, I can't imagine a wife from the Western Zhou elite coocking the meals o cleaning the dishes. They must have had female or even male servants for those jobs.

I think more probable that a Lady only coocked food in the context of ritual performances for worshipping her ancestors or those of her husband. Say that the CENTER was not the kitchen but the FAMILY ALTAR.

And that it was considered a worthy activity not only in the domestic context of her family but also in the the wider context of the community, given the Western Zhou policy of promoting marital alliances for acquiring political and military allies or for pacifying defeated enemies coming to friendly terms with them.

Of course that the lines says nothing about those Ladies but if they said, it wouldn't be in a derogatory sense either.

At least I believe so.

All the best,

Charly

surnevs · Mar 6, 2022

Hi, searching for another thing I found this on Joel Biroco's site:
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~asia/WomenAndDivination.html
__________________
% Add., I think it's a bit more readable in the PDF attached

charly · Mar 7, 2022

surnevs said:
Hi, searching for another thing I found this on Joel Biroco's site:
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~asia/WomenAndDivination.html
__________________
% Add., I think it's a bit more readable in the PDF attached

Hi, Sven:

Thanks for the link.

I agree with Smith, but we must understand that he's speaking about the female condition after the first imperial times, not pre-imperial, as occurs with Lisa Raphals or Maria Khyutina that I'v recommended to read in order to get a clearer vision about the degree of misogyny that there would be during the early times of the Zhou dynasty.

Consequently, the ZHOUYI, say the statements and the lines, seems almost devoid of misogyny, while the much later commentarial tradition seems just the opposite.

All the best,

Charly

charly · Mar 7, 2022

marybluesky said:
... Be happy that you men took over the thread. That's the way things should go in an I Ching forum. Then what? Should I be happy because Wilhelm said that the wife should ignore her own desires and cooks food?

I can't see what you're sad with. I do follow the discussion but have nothing to add.

Hi Mary:

We are men, possibly not so young as to get rid of all the sexist influences received from our distant childhood. But we try to do it, even though we may often fail.

Changes are highly polysemantic in nature. The same line or the same sequence of the received text can justify some very different readings.

It follows an almost literal translation of 37.3 where only by changing one dot's position we get a rather non-patriarchal meaning. Remember that the Zhou script didn't have parsing. All later parsing depends on the sense we want to give to the reading.

Usual parsing:

家人嗃嗃。悔厲吉。
jia1 ren2 he4 he4 hui3 li4 ji2
FAMILY PEOPLE HO-HO! REGRET CRUEL LUCKY (1)
When family people are scolding and scolding, there will be regrets and danger but it will be lucky.

婦子嘻嘻。終吝。
WOMEN CHILDREN XI-XI! END STINGY
fu4 zi3 xi1 xi1 zhong1 lin4
When women and children are giggling and giggling, at the end it will be stingy.
(Only for them, women and children?)

Changing one dot:

家人嗃嗃。悔厲。
jia1 ren2 he4 he4 hui3 li4
FAMILY MEN HO-HO! REGRET CRUEL
Family men, scolding and scolding: regretably cruel.
.
吉婦子嘻嘻。
LUCKY WOMEN CHILDREN XI-XI!
ji2 fu4 zi3 xi1 xi1
Lucky women and children: giggling and giggling.

終吝。
zhong1 lin4
END STINGY
The end will be miserable.
(For both parts? all?) Porca miseria!!!

Don't you believe in the necessity of reading only the ZHOUYI ?
And various translations?

All the best!

Charly
_________________________
(1) Ho!-Ho! can be an onomatopoeia for laughing out loud or sarcastically.
It also can be understood as «scolding continuously» or «all the time».

(2)XI! XI! can be an onomatopoeia for giggling, laughing silly or sneakily.
Or else: happy.
Ch.

surnevs · Mar 7, 2022

#49, Hi Charley, I just stumbled upon the article - if Marybluesky can use it? but of course, You are right. (and it seems to focus on diviners and not women's role in the I Ching text... I guess)

marybluesky · Mar 7, 2022

charly said:
Consequently, the ZHOUYI, say the statements and the lines, seems almost devoid of misogyny, while the much later commentarial tradition seems just the opposite.

Another sign that things may have been different in ancient times. Even there may have been ages we don't know about yet.

We are about to enter the Aquarius era & I wonder how the things have been pre-Pisces era.

IrfanK · Mar 8, 2022

marybluesky said:
Another sign that things may have been different in ancient times. Even there may have been ages we don't know about yet.

We are about to enter the Aquarius era & I wonder how the things have been pre-Pisces era.

One of the things I get from all this discussion is not so much that the I Ching started off without gender bias and misogyny and then got misinterpreted, but that its meaning has continued to change over the centuries and millenia. If you approach it with a misogynistic attitude and beliefs, it will give you misogynistic answers. If you start off with a different view of relations between men and women, then you will see what it says differently.

radiofreewill · Mar 8, 2022

Thanks, marybluesky, for a great question!

I'm also thankful for the Community's nuanced and thoughtful participation, and for the inclusion in the discussion of relevant reference material, as well.

Charly's mention of virtue being possibly gendered has been a whole new idea for me to consider, and one I'm beginning to see merit in, thanks to this question?

With regard to gender and the i-Ching, I tend to agree with many here that the addition of the ten wings undoubtedly put the anachronistic stamp of Confucian Patriarchy on the received text, thereby obscuring any earlier Zhou-era understandings of gender that would have been part of the book's original construction?

And, and, and, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the original Zhou swizzle on gender was, in fact, different than that of Confucian Patriarchy.

For instance, in China, one of the main origin myths for humanity has to do with the sages Fuxi and Nuwa:

These legendary figures were said to be brother and sister, and the only survivors of the Great Flood. After petitioning for Shang Di's (God's) approval, they married, and their offspring were the human race. Importantly, while they are portrayed as having different roles, they are considered equal to each other in every respect of essential worthiness.

Fuxi, in addition to being responsible for many inventions, as most of us know, is also said to have invented the trigrams in order to model the world when it was a Oneness, before the separation distinguishing a 'Heaven' from an 'Earth' had even manifested. His trigram arrangement is therefore called "Before Heaven".

So, Fuxi and Nuwa were coiled like the serpents seen on the medical caduceus symbol around an invisible central Oneness, and every manifest 'thing' in the world flourished in boundless harmony and balance during their day.

This suggests, to me, and I'll support it below, that Fuxi's cosmology is based on 3 genders:

female ~ Yin ~ Nuwa

neuter ~ Oneness ~ Shang Di

male ~ Yang ~ Fuxi

Since trigrams can only be male or female, at this point in the development of the Yi, the neuter (God) is unseen.

Fuxi then stacked the trigrams into the 64 Hexagrams, and put them in their Natural Order, said to follow the sun and moon.

So, here's my support for the three genders:

Using the classic rule that gender is determined by sole or minority line type, this would mean that those hexagrams with 3 Yang and 3 Yin lines would have the neuter gender.

What then might Fuxi's Natural Order of the Hexagrams reflect? How about a weave that fashions the Yang and the Yin in balance around a central braid of Oneness, in a never-ending cycle, like the seasons of the year?

In Fuxi's model, the female, male, and Godhead are all equally essential to the perfect workings of an eternal world.

Except, after Fuxi, then came the Fall due to Desire, when the Earth fell out of the eternal Oneness, now called Heaven, into mortal separateness.

Then, an aeon later, while wrongfully imprisoned by the Shang/Yin Tyrant, the future King Wen reflected upon the Fallen World ~ where Heaven and Earth had become separated.

He saw it as the Mandate of Heaven that the people ~ lost in mortal Separateness ~ be returned to their Origin in Shang Di's eternal Oneness.

So, he rearranged the Before Heaven trigrams into the After Heaven arrangement, to reflect the catastrophic consequences of humanity succumbing to Desire, and placed the 64 hexagrams in the King Wen Sequence.

Assuming that this is so, then what might we 'see' in the structure of the Zhouyi? What was King Wen trying to do with his arrangement?

Well, broadly, starting from a beginning of total separateness ~ all yang Heaven (1) and all yin Earth (2) ~ the sequence braids its way to perfect integration at the end ~ Yang alternating with Yin ~ either in-step and complete (63) or out-of-step and not yet complete (64).

He's using the Zhouyi, I'm suggesting, as a model for the solution to re-connect the people ~ lost in Separateness ~ to the Oneness.

He's bringing Heaven to Earth so that we might all live in the Oneness, again. And, he has the Mandate of Heaven to accomplish this.

So, he starts from the chaos of no integration, total separation, between Heaven and Earth...

...and moves thru the stages of life on the Way to the seamless, perfect integration of Heaven and Earth into the single, perfectly ordered flow of the Oneness. He's putting Heaven and Earth back together in the Oneness, again.

However, to do this, Wen re-purposes Fuxi's Yang and Yin away from their equal-gender focus into a spiritual-warriorship orientation, instead.

He says: Yang will represent the Oneness, and Yin will stand for Separateness due to Desire.

Since we all start out as separate on Earth (yin), the common goal is to get everyone (all of the Zhou, male and female) to the Oneness of Heaven (yang) while still alive.

So, in his model, Yin stands for everything bad about the Fallen World, and Yang stands for everything good about the Origin.

The subtlety of this distinction, I propose, would have undoubtedly been known to the Zhou, who would have retained the Fuxi-Nuwa understanding of gender Equality within the Oneness (Yang), while at the same time understanding separateness due to Desire (Yin) to be the sign of spiritual corruption.

However, once Confucius enveloped the Zhouyi in his Warring States Patriarchy and called it the i-Ching, it lost any subtlety that the Zhou may have known in their own time.

So, on the "Women and the i-Ching" issue, I'm suggesting that the Yin Tyrant is the straw dog for everything evil ~ corruption that multiplies ~ in the Zhouyi...

...but, but, but, once the Zhouyi got into the hands of Confucius, he used it to conflate the Conquest of the evil Yin Tyrant, in the name of God...

...with subjugating the female gender, in the name of Patriarchy!

It's thanks to the hard work of people like Hilary that we are only now beginning to remove the gender bias that has accumulated over the last 2,500 years due to the Confucian influence.

I think discussions like these can only help quicken the process?

And, isn't it about time, too!

marybluesky · Mar 9, 2022

IrfanK said:
If you approach it with a misogynistic attitude and beliefs, it will give you misogynistic answers. If you start off with a different view of relations between men and women, then you will see what it says differently.

Can you explain more?

I'm not sure I agree with you.

IrfanK · Mar 9, 2022

marybluesky said:
Can you explain more?

I'm not sure I agree with you.

Well, people in the Song dynasty seem to have been generally a bit misogynistic. They didn't really trust women and they thought they should be kept away from public life. So when they used the I Ching, that's how they interpreted what it said.

The I Ching seems to change and evolve over the centuries.

charly · Mar 13, 2022

radiofreewill said:
With regard to gender and the i-Ching, I tend to agree with many here that the addition of the ten wings undoubtedly put the anachronistic stamp of Confucian Patriarchy on the received text, thereby obscuring any earlier Zhou-era understandings of gender that would have been part of the book's original construction?
...
However, once Confucius enveloped the Zhouyi in his Warring States Patriarchy and called it the i-Ching, it lost any subtlety that the Zhou may have known in their own time.

So, on the "Women and the i-Ching" issue, I'm suggesting that the Yin Tyrant is the straw dog for everything evil ~ corruption that multiplies ~ in the Zhouyi...

...but, but, but, once the Zhouyi got into the hands of Confucius, he used it to conflate the Conquest of the evil Yin Tyrant, in the name of God...

...with subjugating the female gender, in the name of Patriarchy!

...

Hi Radiofreewill:

Actually nothing written by Confucius has come to us. The Analects were anecdotes or quotes compiled by his early disciples. It is doubtful that he was even interested in the Zhouyi or other divination books and the issues of misogyny are scarce and inacurate, admitting different readings. (1)

The Zhouyi became Yijng by the addition of the Ten Wings only in the first times of the Han Dynasty. Much of the misogyny attributed to the Master belonged to later Confucianists and Neo-Confucianists.

All the best,

Charly
_____________
(1) Maybe an issue of misogyny: if the Master was married, no one said if he spoke anything about his wife.
Ch.

radiofreewill · Mar 13, 2022

Thanks, charly!

Well, there is the famous quote about Confucius that leads us to believe that he practically slept with the i-Ching:

But, I totally get that Confucius was likely co-opted by much later sources:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching

[This wiki is particularly good, imho]

Getting back to marybluesky's question, I agree with IrfanK that it's possible to see the Song dynasty Patriarchy in the commentary, because it really is in there.

In fact, Patriarchy seems to be tautological to the entire commentarial tradition prior to the 20th century, if you ask me?

But, again, as charly alludes to, there isn't much direct evidence from the earliest layers of the text for systemic misogyny of the "All women are Bad" variety, like we see with the Original Sin scenario in the West?

My own take is that Zhou society was stratified between Nobles and Commoners. The Nobles, both male and female, enjoyed privileges not available to the Commoners, male and female. I feel that Zhou society still maintained the Fu-Xi/Nuwa understanding of equal worthiness for the males and females in the Noble class (as long as they were considered 'worthy'), but for the Commoners the one-up/one-down model of Patriarchy was the norm.

So, ultimately, with respect to male and female in the i-Ching, I think it's possible to see both Noble and Ignoble pathways in it at the same time, depending on how you're looking at it:

charly · Mar 16, 2022

Hi Radiofreewell:

Thanks for all. As far as I know there is only one paragraph in the «Analects» that can be seen as misogynistic: 17.23, here the chinese text and Legge translation:

子曰：「唯女子與小人為難養也，近之則不孫，遠之則怨」

The Master said,
"Of all people, girls and servants are the most difficult to behave to.
If you are familiar with them, they lose their humility.
If you maintain a reserve towards them, they are discontented."
[Source:CTEXT.ORG]

Here the coments and translation of 17.23 by Prof. Robert Eno:

«Although early Confucianism reveals little or no active prejudice against women (see 17.23 for an exception), it seems to tacitly assume that its readers, and the only people who matter in public society, are men.»

«... The Master said: "women and small men are difficult to nurture. If you get too close to them, they become uncompliant, and if you stay too distant, they become resentful.»

«... In early confucian literature, this passage stands out as demeaning to women. ‘Small men’ here probably refers to minor male servants. The passage conflates issues of gender and class, and is the lament of elite males who worry that kindness leads their inferiors to forget their place.»

« Whether a late addition or Confucius’s own words, the best that can be said of it is that is atypical. »

Robert Eno:
«The Analects of Confucius. An Online Teaching Translation» 2015.
Availabe in searchable pdf format, here:

All the best,

Charly

radiofreewill · Mar 17, 2022

Well, I have to say that Confucius has been rehabilitated with me, as a result of this thread.

Misogyny is not Noble, and not befitting a King, because all of us can see for ourselves that 'worthiness' is not gendered?

We've all known men and women with "the right stuff," as they used to say about the final selection criteria for astronauts in the US?

So, without answering the question of Misogyny's origins in Chinese culture, at least we can say that Confucius's work does not appear to reflect female disempowerment through 'unworthiness'...

...and, therefore, he can remain standing tall as a Noble example ~ and the uncrowned King ~ of the Chinese tradition.

Being an American, my culture is more inclined towards personal expression than group identity, which is the reverse polarity of how it is in China?

And, while the gender roles are different between our two cultures, there's still no doubt that Misogyny is a common dynamic in both.

Where the West is on the verge of changing the world order, imho, is with respect to women.

What we want to do is to elevate our little girls within our culture so that when the little boys ride up on their horses to save the damsels in distress...

...the little girls say, "We're not in distress, and we don't need saving...

...but, if you want to talk about partnering together for an enjoyable work-life balance with good self care, then would you like some tea?"

That will change the World for the better...

We boys are slow, but we'll figure it out eventually.

What must happen, first, for this change to transform our culture is for our girls and women to feel empowered, to get strong, and to become fully self-directing themselves...

...not as a reaction to the history of Misogyny, but rather as a flowering of their unbridled full human potential.

And, isn't it about time...

I Ching and Female

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