45. Ts'ui / Gathering Together [Massing]

charly · Aug 4, 2008

hollis said:
another one of those human sacrifice hexagrams. is that correct? is line 1 the person who doesn't want their head on the chopping block, or just can't quite seem to go forward with the happy group plan the king has in mind?

Hollis:

Hollis:

Wandering about:

Captives (or people like them), willing not to lose the head
Kings going ahead with collective plans, passing over all sort of corpses for getting their goals (mainly not to be punished by Gods).

Maybe both options are but points of view involving the same basic desire:

For captives, to retain the HEAD,
For Kings, to retain de POWER.

A list of HUMAN SACRIFICE hexagrams,summarized by Tony Saroop (no longer in the web)

One doesn't have to look very hard in the Zhouyi for clear indications of what is euphemistically known as 'human sacrifice,' but which, if we are not to put too fine a point on it, ought really to be thought of as the murder of war captives, because at bottom that is what it is and it is almost everywhere:

...
8:1 ... / 9:5 ... / 14:5 ... / 17:4 ... / 17:6 ... / 20:0 ... / 20:3 ... / 29:0 ... /
30:6 ... / 34:1 ... / 37:9 ... / 40:5 ... / 42:3 ...

45:0 Use of a large sacrificial victim is auspicious.

45:1 Sacrificing captives, not bound - / thus unruly and disorderly.
They cry, and then laugh

45:2 Favourable for using captives at the summer sacrifice.

46:2 ... / 48:6 ... / 49:0 ... / 49:3 ... / 49:4 ... / 49:5 ... / 55:2 ... /
58:5 ... / 61:0 ... / 64:5 ... / 64:6 ...

Tony Saroop [Translations from Richard Rutt].

Of course, Tony took for granted that Rutt gave the best translation for fu character, which is oppinable.

I believe that being captives sacrifice a so extended practice, not only among chinese but all around the ancient and contemporary world, there is little to speak about it without risking head and power.

If we think of the YI as a handbook from diviners and for diviners (not kings, captives), surely they speak of another thing under the cover of the politically correct fu = war prisoners / captives. Maybe they used the word metaphorically for HUMAN BEINGS, based in an existentialist (1) point of view on human nature.

HUMAN BEINGS = CAPTIVES CONDEMNED TO BE FREE

You can see that for H.45 Rutt's rendering is not literal and involves some conflictive options...

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) Avant garde

charly · Aug 5, 2008

charly said:
...(to be continued)...

Reasuming:

45:0 Use of a large sacrificial victims is auspicious.
From R. Rutt version

用 yong4 / to use / to apply
大 da4 / big / great
牲 sheng1 / domestic animal / sacrificial animal
吉 ji2 / lucky / fortunate

Pretty literal, but victims instead of animals or beasts allows to put captives in the whole, but it is not what the text says.

45:1 Sacrificing captives, not bound - / thus unruly and disorderly.
They cry, and then laugh
From R. Rutt version

有 you3 / to have / there is / there are / to exist
孚 fu2 / trust / sincere // captive / war prisoner / to capture
不 bu4 / un ... / not / no / ...less
終 zhong1 / end / finish /

乃 nai3 / thus / so / therefore / then
亂 luan4 / in confusion / disorderly /
乃 nai3 / thus / so / therefore / then
萃 cui4 / collect / dense / grassy /assemble / gather /

若 ruo4 / to seem / like / as / if /
號 hao4 / roar / cry /
一 yi1 / one / 1 / single
握 wo4 / shake hands / to hold
為 wei2 / act as / to serve as / to become
笑 xiao4 / laugh / smile /

Rutt translates 不bu4 終 zhong1 as NOT BOUND, it passes, but why to translate the token of H.45 萃 cui4 as DISORDEDLY ?

Why he translated the last paragraph simply as : «They cry, and then laugh» when the texs speaks of something like a roar ?
What happened to the shake of hands whatever it could mean?
Why he says «They cry, and then laugh» ? Is laughing a consequence of crying?

45:2 Favourable for using captives at the summer sacrifice.
From R. Rutt version

引 yin3 / to lead / to guide
吉 ji2 / lucky
无 wu2 / without / not / no
咎 jiu4 / blame / mistake

孚 fu2 / trust / sincere / war prisoner / captive / to capture
乃 nai3 / thus / so / therefore / then
利 li4 / advantage / benefit / profit / profitable
用 yong4 / to use / to apply
禴 yue4 / summer or spring sacrifice (1)

Why such a synthetic version ? What happened to the first clause ?

With the same sense it could have been translated so:

To lead [is] lucky, not [a] mistake.
Captives, then, [are] profitably used in [the] YUE [sacrifice].

If captives were always sacrificed during royal yue sacrifices to the ancestors, why to do such a cynical equation ?

I do not believe in 孚 fu as «captive / war prisoner to be sacrified» but as a more general existential concept, using a word pleasant for the royal ears but with a hidden sense for the internal use of diviners' guilds or brotherhoods.

Yours,

Charly

________________________
(1) YUE : royal sacrifice to the ancestors made mainly in summer but also in springtime during wich reed-flutes were played. Maybe also the name of the music instrument, music notes and different measurement tools.

hollis · Aug 5, 2008

charly said:
Hollis:

Hollis:

HUMAN BEINGS = CAPTIVES CONDEMNED TO BE FREE

You can see that for H.45 Rutt's rendering is not literal and involves some conflictive options...

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) Avant garde

hola Charly.

Wowxa. Charlie, my gosh, thank you very much. I will confess I am not a fast learner, being kinetic by temperment and the world of letters is (later)

You have just distilled so many of my unanswered questions into this post, and really, I am so humbled.

You have such an interesting take on the YJ, I can't help but wonder if it is stricktly recieved from the text itself, and going thru the tunnels of translation, or if you have some kind of philosophy or teaching that guides you.

you dont have to answer that, but i really love your postings here.

yours truly
hollis

charly · Aug 5, 2008

hollis said:
... I ... wonder if it is stricktly recieved from the text itself, and going thru the tunnels of translation, or if you have some kind of philosophy or teaching that guides you...

Hollis:

Thanks very much for all the eulogies. I'm very grateful for your words.

About the questions:

I'm trying to make a literal translation character by character, applying for each the most used meanings, having for reference verifyable sources, mainly from the web.

I believe that I'm not competing with deeper filological studies, but only encouraging some healthy criticism.

Temporary translations are maybe not too accurate but verifyable.

I have not a philosophy guiding my translations, but, of course, I have some kind of it, that maybe guide my interpretations.

I believe that no matters the translation we use, the YI is always speaking for us and about us. Even more, the YI always use our own language. The teachings we get deppends on the persons we are.

Yours,

Charly

rosada · Aug 6, 2008

Six in the third place means:
Gathering together amid sighs.
Nothing that would further.
Going is without blame.
Slight humiliation.

Often a man feels the urge to unite with others, but the individuals around him have already formed themselves into a group, so that he remains isolated. The whole situation proves untenable. Then he ought to choose the way of progress, resolutely allying himself with a man who stands nearer to the center of the group, and can help him to gain admission to the closed circle. This is not a mistake, even though at first his position as an outsider is somewhat humiliating.

"Going is without blame." The Gentle is above.

This line has no relationship of correspondence, hence the sighs, the forlornness and helplessness. Since the line belongs to the lower trigram, the relationship of holding together with the nine in the fourth place does not become effective, for the latter line belongs to the upper trigram, However, a connection is established through the upper nuclear trigram Sun, the Gentle, for the six in the third place forms the lowest line in this nuclear trigram, of which the nine in the fourth place is the center. Thereby going, as well as a connection, becomes possible without blame, even though humiliation remains.

Trojina · Aug 6, 2008

yup 45.3 is a real miserable one IMO. I recall getting it once asking about going to stay with some people over a weekend - I thought possibly from the commentary i was using I wouldn't exactly fit in much but that it would be okay. It remains in my memory as one of the most miserable weekends in my life. And Wilhelm says "slight humiliation" Hah i think thats an understatement ! I would have liked Wilhelm to be there that weekend(well at least i could have talked to him i guess) Yes I have a downer on 45.3 if i get it i don't go there .....you might

rosada · Aug 6, 2008

45.3
New Kid in Town
-The Eagles

hollis · Aug 6, 2008

trojan said:
I would have liked Wilhelm to be there that weekend(well at least i could have talked to him i guess)

Trojina · Aug 7, 2008

Wonder what Wilhelm looked like ?

charly · Aug 7, 2008

trojan said:
yup 45.3 is a real miserable one IMO. I recall getting it once asking about going to stay with some people over a weekend ...

Trojan:

Maybe you had bad luck with 45.3 because you consulted the W/B version. Maybe if you would have another voice to hear the result could have been better:

CHINESE CHARACTERS, PINYIN, USUAL MEANINGS, W/B VERSION:

萃 cui4 / collect / gather / united / GATHERING TOGETHER
如 ru2 / ... - like/ as (if) / such as / [?]
嗟 jie1 / sigh / sob / exclamation / [AMID] SIGHS
如 ru2 / ... - like / as (if) / such as / [?]

无 wu2 / without / not / no / NOTHING [THAT WOULD]
攸 you1 / distant / far / very (?)
利 li4 / advantage / benefit / profit / profitable / FURTHER

往 wang3 / to go (in a direction) / GOING [IS]
无 wu2 / without / not / no / WITHOUT
咎 jiu4 / blame / mistake / error / BLANE

小 xiao3 / small / tiny / few / little / SLIGHT
吝 lin4 / stingy / stingy / niggardly / parsimonious / HUMILIATION

W/B lacks the sense of relative falseness in the 1st. paragraph:

如 ru2 is conditioning the previous word, something that seems to be, something like the previous concept:

something that seems to be UNION but maybe it is not
something that seems to be MOAN or COMPLAINT but maybe it is not

Going to UNION without CONVICTION, expressing DOUBTS.
Going to UNION GRUMBLING.

W/B exagerates the negativeness of the second and last paragraphs:

攸 you1 is a conflictive character, usually means FAR, often translated as PLACE in the YI, often meaning PURPOSE. Maybe here acts as an intensifier BY FAR / VERY.

Second paragraph more literally translated: NOT VERY PROFITABLE.

Last paragraph: HUMILIATION sounds very strong for a simple 吝 lin4

Temporary literal translation:

UNION-LIKE GRUMBLING-LIKE
Not actually adhering, not actually complaining.

NOT VERY PROFITABLE
Less than unprofitable.
Having the right to doubt, but inneffective.

GOING is NO WRONG
It's no bad, nothing wrong, no blame. No censurable.

But a LITTLE STINGY
Not a generous attitude.

Not so bad, only weakenesses of human nature.

Say, maybe you didn't truly want to go with such a people in this miserable weekend.

Yours,

Charly

rosada · Aug 7, 2008

Hey, interesting we're at Gathering Together just as the Olympics are about to begin!

meng · Aug 7, 2008

charly said:
UNION-LIKE GRUMBLING-LIKE

I first read this as: Union like grumbling lake. I rather like that for line 3.

heylise · Aug 7, 2008

45.3 Gathering like rumbling lake

Maybe Nessie is here somewhere, posting under some alias? That explains!

LiSe

Sparhawk · Aug 7, 2008

I enjoy Charly's translations. Even when I may disagree with him. More so because he translates the Chinese into Spanish and then renders it into English with a spark that makes you pay attention. The result is always entertaining and many times, perhaps, unwillingly satirical. This reminds me of reading a novel, a long time ago, perhaps one of Pearl Buck's, where a Chinese character spoke publicly with a very strong 'pidgin' accent. Once, he was caught speaking perfect English, with barely a trace of an accent, and the surprised person who heard him asked: "Why you speak to everybody with such a strong pidgin accent when your English is perfect?" and he replied: "because that way people pays more attention to what I'm saying"

charly · Aug 7, 2008

sparhawk said:
I enjoy Charly's translations. Even when I may disagree with him. More so because he translates the Chinese into Spanish and then renders it into English with a spark that makes you pay attention. The result is always entertaining and many times, perhaps, unwillingly satirical. ...

Luis:

Thaks for all. But I translate directly from chinese to english.

I undestand your mistake, I have never spoken english. I studied it six years at the middle school, six years at the high school, many years writing commercial reports but I never could speak english. I'm absolutely deaf for english.

But in the case of translating the YI, I ...

take the chinese character and pinyin,
look for it in bilingual online dictionaries,
strip the structure of the whole paragraph
and write directly the english rendering.

Of course, sometimes I have reminiscenses of spanish idioms or I have a spanish word whose equivalent english I don't know. Then, I have two techniques, I translate through Babelfish or look in a pocket dictionary. Sometimes the results are bizarre, I know.

But for me the english language is more apt for translating the chinese YI, more concise, more graphic (I'm an inveterate comics reader). Maybe like Tarzan speaks, so I write.

There is also the dirty bias.

Say, I see that where I read «to peel the hut» or «to strip the hut», Harmen propose «to cut the radish». I say for myself: «Why not no peel the radish?» What could it mean? Associations flow like in a kind of short circuit, maybe stripped wires among the neurons → Of course: «pelar el nabo» = «to take provisions for being prepared in order to commit a sexual act». The results can be also bizarre.

But I do translate directly from chinese to english. Some things that can be rude in spanish, in english I don't know.

Un abrazo,

Charly

rosada · Aug 7, 2008

0 Nine in the fourth place means:

Great good fortune. No blame.

This discribes a man who gathers people around him in the name of his ruler. Since he is not striving for any special advantages for himself but is working unselfishly to bring about general unity, his work is crowned with success, and everything becomes as it should be.

"Great good fortune. No blame," for the place demands nothing.

This line is the place of the minister, who brings about the gathering together on behalf of his prince, the nine in the fifth place. But he does not claim the merit of it for himself; hence great good fortune.

Sparhawk · Aug 8, 2008

charly said:
Luis:

Thaks for all. But I translate directly from chinese to english.

My mistake. Nice to hear that. I know how difficult is to translate across different languages when your brain tugs in all directions for meaning and metaphors.

Un abrazo,

rosada · Aug 9, 2008

I am just continuing to vibrate - to be blown away! - with the auspiciousness of this line in perfect at onement with the events on the world stage yesterday and today. I feel our being at this line at this time is Confucius Himself sending a greeting to the Olympics. Talk about an Opening Ceremony! Retire the trophy!

rosada · Aug 10, 2008

0 Nine in the fifth place means:
If in gathering together one has position,
This brings no blame.
If there are some who are not yet sincerely in the work,
Sublime and enduring perseverance is needed.
Then remorse disappears.

When people spontaneously gather around a man, it is only a good. It gives him a certain influence that can be altogether useful. But of course there is also the possibility that many may gather around him not because of a feeling of confidence but merely because of his influential position. This is certainly to be regretted. The only means of dealing with such people is to gain their confidence through steadfastness and intensified, unswerving devotion to duty. In this way secret mistrust will gradually be overcome, and there will be no occasion for regret.

If in gathering together one has only position, the will does not yet shine forth sufficiently.

bamboo · Aug 11, 2008

How about the syncronicity of this line being posted for discussion on the day of the first webinar for Clarity's new venture? Perfect.

rosada · Aug 11, 2008

to complete what Wilhelm says about 45.5:

Essentially the requisite position for effecting the gathering together is at hand. But there are difficulties. The nuclear trigram Ken, Keeping Still, works in such a way that the effects on the lower lines do not immediately make themselves felt. Therefore an enduring influence is needed. To the influence of the position must be added the influence of personality. This line according to its character belongs to Ch'ien, hence it is sublime. This character must needs acquire enduring form; hence remorse disappears.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Aug 12, 2008

It seems to me this line is representing Past, Present and Future all in one moment. The essence of centeredness.

rosada · Aug 13, 2008

45.6
Six at the top means:
lamenting and sighing, floods of tears.
No blame.

It may happen that an individual would like to ally himself with another, but his good intentions are misunderstood. Then he becomes sad and laments. But this is the right course. For it may cause the other person to come to his senses, so that the alliance that has been sought and so painfully missed is after all achieved.

"Lamenting and sighing, floods of tears." He is not tranquil at the top.

The top line has no relationship of correspondence (cf. the six in the third place), hence the lamenting and the tears. However, there is no blame; for though the line is not tranquil in its exalted yet solitary position, it conforms to the relationship of holding together and turns downward toward the ruler of the hexagram, the nine in the fifth place. The gathering together is achieved because the idea that it is favorable to see the great man accords with the meaning of the hexagram as a whole.

rosada · Aug 13, 2008

All the weird stories that have come out of this Olympics could serve as an example of this line. I'm thinking of the furor over the Welcoming Ceremony being revealed to have incorporated questionable ethics, that is, having the supposedly prettier little girl lipsync for the other. Like 45.6, couldn't a case be made that the intention was to create the best possible welcome and No blame, cause all's fair in Love and Art?

charly · Aug 13, 2008

heylise said:
45.3 Gathering like rumbling lake...
Maybe Nessie is here somewhere, posting under some alias? That explains!

LiSe:

Good finding, LiSe. NESSY under the lake. A sort of DRAGON without wings and maybe without legs. Something akin to a SNAKE. Snakes are almotst always female in meaning, the GODDESS of EARTH or maybe her daughter or her messenger.

Snakes do predict EARTHQUAKES. Snake's rings reminds the eternal CICLE of LIFE. Chinese people associated snakes with turtles as both EARTH animals.

Then:

NESSY → SNAKE → EARTH
Living below the waters of the LAKE

Of course,

EARTH inside or below the LAKE, the H.45 formula.
Fertility in the midst of Joy.

If I remember well you said that H.45 means gathering troops. What sort of troops?

Joyous troops, maybe the kind of troops that can be recruited among peasants, even in taverns or brothels. Say bandits more than noblemen, masses, people.

Popular troops, troops that rise below each plant, troops like grass. Led by somebody like LuiBang (1), the bandits' leader that became founder of the Han dynasty, son of a Dragon.

The SNAKE / DRAGON among the RUMBLING LAKE of popular revolt.

But this is another story.

Yours,

Charly

____________________
(1) LiuBang (劉邦), family name of Han GaoZu (漢高帝), first Han emperor.

charly · Aug 13, 2008

rosada said:
0 Nine in the fourth place means:

Great good fortune. No blame.

This discribes a man who gathers people around him in the name of his ruler. Since he is not striving for any special advantages for himself but is working unselfishly to bring about general unity, his work is crowned with success, and everything becomes as it should be.

"Great good fortune. No blame," for the place demands nothing.

This line is the place of the minister, who brings about the gathering together on behalf of his prince, the nine in the fifth place. But he does not claim the merit of it for himself; hence great good fortune.

Ros:

I wonder how a fourth character line could desbribe a so wordy concept that includes:

gathering people
in name of the ruler
waiting nothing for himself
looking for general unity
crowned with success

... and everything becoming as it should be !

The chinese text only says:

大 da4 / big / great /
吉 ji2 / lucky / luck /
无 wu2 / without / not / no /
咎 jiu4 / blame / mistake / error /

Big luck, no wrong.

Maybe a great amount of luck is necessary to succeed, but it's no wrong.
Maybe little chances but no another way out of gathering people.
The correct way, no wrong.

Yours,

Charly

rosada · Aug 14, 2008

I'm seeing this hexagram as being all about making room for a newcomer..

45.1 When one feels outer world signals are too faint and too far between. Feeling out of touch.

45.2 This throws one back on one's inner world signals, one's Inner Knowingness. Listening to the inner and knowing you belong. I think of the Be-Ins back in the sixties when it was assumed that you didn't need to be invited, you'd just show up cause you'd "feel" the call.

45.3 Opps, but what about when my inner knowingness recognizes I'm a member of the group but the group doesn't seem to be feeling that way about me?

45.4 The opposite of treating someone as an outsider, making room for them on an inner level, accepting and understanding. Perhaps it means the one who has been treated like an outsider must be more accepting on an inner level.
Like the line from the poem, "Love and I had the wit to win, we drew a circle that took him in."

45.5 The opposite of accepting someone on an inner level, accepting on an outer level - the person being seen as The Man of The Hour.

45.6 The moment passes. When a person is the man of the hour they make the rules, the world aligns to their standards, but when the moment passes there can be fault finding. Like when everyone applauded th Opening Ceremony at the Olympics and then was fault finding afterwards. This is inappropriate. There should be NO BLAME as it was the host country's perogative.

charly · Aug 14, 2008

rosada said:
... about 45.5: ... the requisite position for effecting the gathering together is at hand. But ... an enduring influence is needed... the influence of personality ... hence remorse disappears.
-Wilhelm

Ros:

It reminds me the character of W.Churchill during the second WW.

See the slogan fron this poster, «Let us go forward together», it was taken from the message to the parliament as Prime Minister in 1940:

From: http://www.topfoto.co.uk/gallery/peakoil/default.html

Yours,

Charly

rosada · Aug 15, 2008

Wonderful! Churchill had such a difficult life before he was made the head of everything during WW11 that his earlier experience seems to also serve as a good example of 45.1.2.3.and 4. And of course, although Britain and the United States were supposedly the victors of WW11, the peace agreement was such that many say the west won the war but lost the peace. Perhaps that somehow coincides with 45.6.

charly · Aug 17, 2008

rosada said:
...
If in gathering together one has position,
This brings no blame.
If there are some who are not yet sincerely in the work,
Sublime and enduring perseverance is needed.
Then remorse disappears.
...

Rosada:

I believe that there are too much words added in W/B rendering. Maybe a literal version could have a clear sense without twisting the syntax:

Chinese characters, pinyin , usual meanings, WILHELM/BAYNES

萃cui4: gathering / [IF IN] GATHERING [TOGETHER]
有you3: to have / there ir / there are / [ONE] HAS
位wei4: position / place / [A] POSITION

无wu2: not / no / without / [THIS BRINGS] NO
咎jiu4: blame / error / mistake / wrong / BLAME
匪fei3: be not / non // bandit / [IF THERE ARE SOME WHO ARE] NOT
孚fu2: sincere // captive / [YET] SINCERELY [IN THE WORK]

元yuan2: first / principal / great / SUBLIME
永yong3: permanent / perpetual / eternal / [AND] ENDURING
貞zhen1: divination // perseverance / PERSEVERANCE [IS NEEDED]

悔hui3: regret / remorse / [THE] REMORSE
亡wang2: to die / to disappear / DISAPPEARS.

GATHERING HAD PLACE
Union is already a fact.

NO WRONG
It's good, but...

NEVER CAPTIVES
Be not captives (1)

FIRST PERMANENT OMEN
Principle not negotiable, a deep rooted feling, a slogan (2)

REMORSE DISAPPEARS
No regrets, not regretable
Defeatists feelings vanishes

Having got the union is no wrong, but it's not enough: a goal, a clear purpose is necessary. A slogan fixed in mind, like an omen, a feeling of inevitability: NEVER CAPTIVES.

The success is not sure, but without unity and consciousness, it would be impossible.

Here corresponds to remember 1940 Winston Churchill words:

We shall fight ... with growing confidence and growing strength ... whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender.

Winston Churchill, June 4, 1940

From: http://old-photos.blogspot.com/2007/06/winston-churchill.html

There are more Churchill's quotes for H.45

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly
______________________________
(1) Why did W/B translated the two words «fei fu» as «If there are some who are not yet sincerely in the work»? If one wants to translate fu as sincere, then fei fu would be not sincere, from where came all the other words? 匪fei3 is not a simple «not», sometimes it means «bandit», «robber», sometimes «be not», sometimes «never» (I take this last sense from Lin Yutang, if I undestood it well)

(2) slogan first meaning was battle cry, then, emblematic phrase.

slogan: 1513, "battle cry," from Gaelic sluagh-ghairm "battle cry used by Scottish Highland or Irish clans," from sluagh "army, host, slew" + gairm "a cry." Metaphoric sense of "distinctive word or phrase used by a political or other group" is first attested 1704.
From: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=slogan

45. Ts'ui / Gathering Together [Massing]

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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