Hi, Dear All,

45.4: Great auspiciousness, no calamity (or fault). Differing from what Wilhelm and Baynes translated, most of Confucian explanations are: ‘One must be blessed with great auspiciousness and then can be free from calamity’. Great means that auspiciousness must cover every corner. It is a warning.

Likely you already realized this from my last two posts: 45.4.5 two power forces in Hexagram 45, and 16.4 a leader with the cult of personality.

I would like to continue the story:

Provided that 16.4 takes the advice and changes to the feminine, the hexagram will become Bi (8): intimate and interdependent relationship. Its text is: Auspicious. To divine twice (or to divine very prudently), it must possess origination (i.e. the spring of goodness) and be everlasting as well as persist (in righteousness); no fault (or calamity). (The dukes are) not submissive (to the king) coming (for intimate interdependence); it is ominous for one to come late.
Who is the duke that comes late for king’s call?
8.6: Bi (intimate interdependence) not in the lead; it is ominous.
Line 6 is the last line, i.e. the last one to be interdependent with line 5. It is the duke who is summoned by the king but comes late. Not only it missed the right timing but it also rides on line 5; the feminine riding on the masculine signifies inferiority bulling superiority; this is ominous.

8.6 is executed and changes from the feminine to the masculine, the hexagram becomes 20:Guan, according to Confucian annotation, those above set model for those below to follow.

End of story

Best regards
Tuck :bows:

Hi Tuck

Can you elaborate a little further why you translate the text as "to divine twice"?

Thanks

Hi, Jesed,

Good question!
Can you read Chinese?

The original Chinese text is quoted as 原筮, 筮 is divination; 原 normally means ‘original or former’. However it is alleged, 原筮 is a kind of ancient divination rule, a very prudent and deliberate divination, therefore it is annotated by most of Chinese I Ching writings as ‘to divine twice’. Sorry, I have no idea what kind of divination method it is.
Hexagram 8: Bi can be regarded as alliance; such important event, for the safety sake, in my opinion, it is reasonable to have 2nd divination. There might be also a translation of the original divination, but I have never seen before.

Regards
Tuck

jesed said:

Hi Tuck

Can you elaborate a little further why you translate the text as "to divine twice"?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Rodrigo! 3:00 AM? Andabas de fiesta o no podías dormir? No te pierdas de los foros...

I'm sure you know this already by heart, but, regarding 8, both Wilhelm and Legge, imply a second consultation. Even Blofeld says "Further consultation of the oracle will provide an omen of great and lasting value." (and Bradford Hatcher leaves that door open too...)

It is very interesting though to read these ad-hoc translations by Tuck. It is refreshing when a native Chinese gives English a try from the other side of the mirror, so to speak. It kind of reminded me of Alfred Huang.

Tuck, keep them coming!

1.

HOLDING TOGETHER brings good fortune.
Inquire of the oracle once again
Whether you possess sublimity, constancy, and perseverance;
Then there is no blame.

Wilhelm
​

2.

Pî indicates that (under the conditions which it supposes) there is good fortune. But let (the principal party intended in it) re-examine himself, (as if) by divination, whether his virtue be great, unintermitting, and firm. If it be so, there will be no error. Those who have not rest will then come to him; and with those who are (too) late in coming it will be ill.

Legge
​

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Hi Tuck,

tuckchang said:

Sorry, I have no idea what kind of divination method it is.

Click to expand...

I forgot to mention, but, if I'm not mistaken, 筮 refers specifically to yarrow (milfoil) divination.

tuckchang said:

To divine twice (or to divine very prudently)

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Divine very prudently makes lots of sense to me, and that may require more than one reading. But unlike WB, it doesn't necessarily mean to inquire a second time.

LiSe's "The source of oracle consulting" could also be another way of saying to get deeply into the reading, get to the bottom of it, to become one with it.

Bradford's BI seems to me to be more about warning against delaying or giving it a second thought (they say first impressions are usually correct), as though being on time, or better yet, being early, is even more important than being perfectly correct. I'm guessing that it's due to that emphasis that nothing is said about a second inquiry.

Nobody was executed. Shou means leader as well as head.

tuckchang said:

However it is alleged, 原筮 is a kind of ancient divination rule, a very prudent and deliberate divination, therefore it is annotated by most of Chinese I Ching writings as ‘to divine twice’.

Click to expand...

Hi Tuck

Thanks for your comment.

As meng said, "to divine very prudently" makes more sense for me, than the idea of double divination. At least, not a double divination with the same method (stalks). Once upon a time, I have a very "heated" discussion about "ask again to the Yi" in Luis' forum. But prudence..yes... something along the line of "give the answer a second thought"..maybe but not too long (the last one in reacts lost the union). At least, this is what I use to think about this particular text..until you gave this comment. (BTW, also thanks to twilight)

Why? Because, "on the ther hand" (there is always another hand, isnt?)... again "once upon a time" i wrote a little article about how the study of another classic can help us in order to improve our practice with the Yi: the Clasic of History.

In that classic (sure you already know) we can find the instruction for the King, when the matter is of great importance, to ask himself; then ask his officials; then ask the people; then ask BOTH the tortoise and the stalks. And then, we can find some guidelines to arrive to one single conclusion from all this consultations.

Could this line be a reminiscence from the transitional time when the Zhou Yi shared space with previous Shang's methods? Must important... could this shows the slowly triumph of stalks (Zhou) over tortoise (Shang)?: something like "instead of follow the guidelines to harmonize the contradictory results from both method, trust the Zhou Yi"

THAT IS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT... well, actually only when you are awake at 3 am

Best

jesed said:

Once upon a time, I have a very "heated" discussion about "ask again to the Yi" in Luis' forum.

Click to expand...

Not with me, though... (I think... )

Hi ! Dear all,

Thanks for your feedbacks.
In my opinion, the significance of ‘to divine twice’ in hexagram 8 is to emphasize the importance of prudence, but I do believe, in ancient time, people would divine many times for the big events like alliance, launching war etc from different angles, or other oracular methods, till they felt confident with the answer. Provided that all the answers were yes and no, or even negative; I think, they might do like 49.5.
Indeed there is no evidence that someone was executed in hexagram 8; but according to the historical record, Yu (禹), the founder of the Xia (夏) Dynasty (two dynasties before Chow), once summoned all the tribal leaders for a summit at Mt. Gui Ji (會稽山); the chieftain of the Fang Feng clan came late and received the death penalty. Of course, there is no evidence to prove this link. This is only for reference and fun.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:

sparhawk said:

Not with me, though... (I think... )

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jajaja... It wasn't with you, Luis; but Claudio