All Change: Headless Dragons and Perseveringly Upright.

[my_key]

Then 1 and 2 becoming engine for all that happens afterwards and looking at them suggesting we look at the beginning and the end. Where it all comes from and where it all arrives.

I appreciate your detailed reply.

I can certainly see how Hex 1 and 2 can be viewed as the engine. Just by the very existence of these pure yin and yang associated hexagrams and their interaction the whole of the hexagram Universe is produced and change exists. That's apparent whether it's viewed as a Yi-globe or not.

The globe model does demonstrate clearly the axis-mundi and the position taken by 63 and 64 in respect of this.

To my way of looking at it, it doesn't need a special event, like the whole six lines changing, to provide the power for the engine you talk about to be manifest. So I'm still not able to clearly see the connection between Yi globe and the specific instances of six changing lines. I can see the Yi-globe relating to interaction of yin and yang, yes for sure, but not the special time conjured up by six changing lines. Surely, the globe model exists even when the hexagrams are unchanging or have fewer changing lines.

So what is the conneciton with the original topic... To understand the answer to what happens when Qian changes to Kun and , and/or the other way around we have to understand what that means and is it different then any other hexagram changing. And it is. So a possible theory of why there is extra text can come from there. May not be the real reason, but if it brings us to more interesting and useful representations of the world around all the better.

Qian and Kun are always dancing around each other. The globe is one projection of a model of the outcome of that dance. And so while it may be possible to construct a theory around the extra text from how you have presented it it does seem a bit tenuous. Maybe others can offer support to what you have said to substantiate your proposal. Personally, I find the 4 themes given in the extract posted by surnevs as more compelling reasons for explaining the 6 lines changing and the resultant dynamics they represent.

Point #2 explains that 6 lines changing at once in Hex 1 and Hex 2 is 'different than any other hexagram changing' all of their 6 lines. This is clear, in my understanding, because the 7th statement in each hexagram exists, and originates way back in the mists of time, way before there is any known reference to the Yi-globe.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Point #2 explains that 6 lines changing at once in Hex 1 and Hex 2 is 'different than any other hexagram changing' all of their 6 lines. This is clear, in my understanding, because the 7th statement in each hexagram exists, and originates way back in the mists of time, way before there is any known reference to the Yi-globe.

Some years ago we(me and my brother) were very curious about I Ching, so we started with "the Tao of I Ching" book ... Awesome theory, just didn't really worked in practice.
Tested it for many questions, saw it doesn't work we forgot it and moved on.

It happened that I practiced some of the inner martial arts years later and it was very interesting. There were trigrams, there were hexagrams, but there were also 5 elements and meridians and soo much more...
That seem so connected yet far away...

I wanted to find more about that and its connection to the I Ching. Searched around, best I could find was the changing lines in Crane in the Shade. Basically, same thing used in Point 2, with some additions, can still see it in the site there.
This was... 15-20 years ago I think.

I couldn't understand what was happening, obviously we had vast enormous system, intricate and complex, detailed and very, very potent practically... And also obviously that didn't exist in English back then as we only had very simple summary on where to look instead that just felt wrong as much then as it still does now.

But lack of choice, so that is what I used. All lines changing we read summary of second hexagram, or we read both of them.
And I knew it didn't work, but there was nothing more. As every time I looked for it I found mountains of... Weeell... lets not go there. But my idea is I'm aware of that approach. There are few others that try to solve the same problem(like reading line by line all hexagrams that will change to arrive at the last etc.)
Have probably thousands and thousands of questions with these methods...

At the end of the day as someone, somewhere said "if you want to have something you never had, you may have to do something you have never done."

For me I like to look stuff through the globe now. If its too fancy for someone, they can find simpler and more logical ways to find what texts to read, as you have done. And if they use it rarely enough and only in emotionally charged situation it should work reasonably well in most cases(not all). Although in that case there will also be countless other sources of info that will be there providing same ideas from all directions.

In any case, we all use what we find for us at that time.
If you think this is valid for you - awesome, use, enjoy!Our humble globe is still under construction , anyway, and the path in the other branches of the systems is currently... Under construction I hope. Or just have crumbled down, who knows...

 

[Tihia Viatar]

ok, so we know the text when all lines change for hex 1.
And we know, that text isn't any text existing in hexagram 2.
Also isn't any text existing in hexagram 1.
Also isn't any text in any other hexagram...

Any possible rule one will use for what text to choose when they have multiple changing lines would be out the window with this...
Suggesting, if we view that that text is what we should take if all lines change, then that may just be a way to say - ok, we can't really give all variations of this, but keep in mind 6 changing lines will have different text then just choosing one of them and reading that or reading the whole hexagrams instead.

Also giving the idea we may had to actually learn from the 1 lines changing to how the system is devised and device our own meaning for any other variation/permutation out there.

And here comes the time to start promoting the Yi Globe as the best way to follow the changing lines and... !
But I will pass this time around.

 

[my_key]

For me I like to look stuff through the globe now. If its too fancy for someone, they can find simpler and more logical ways to find what texts to read, as you have done. And if they use it rarely enough and only in emotionally charged situation it should work reasonably well in most cases(not all). Although in that case there will also be countless other sources of info that will be there providing same ideas from all directions.

It's good that you have found a model that you can readily relate to. I did spend some time a few years back studying and exploring the Yi-globe. I liked the 3 dimensional perspective of the model and the sense of relationship and proximity that it produces, however it all seemed just a bit too complicated. I couldn't really relate to the complexity that went with it when making divination. I think it provides a workable visual model for study of 'life, the universe, and everything'. Perhaps, I never spent enough time with it for a deeper relationship to develop as yours has and continues to be.

Having said that, I still struggle in the context of this thread, to see how it accommodates the 6 changing lines in Hex 1 and Hex 2.

 

[my_key]

And here comes the time to start promoting the Yi Globe as the best way to follow the changing lines and... !
But I will pass this time around.

Why pass? I'm certain there is no need to. Maybe starting a separate thread will begin the promotion of the Yi-globe that you are now advocating for following changing lines.

For general information about Yi-globe here in a thread dating back to 2009. Interesting inputs from some of the wise old owls. https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/index.php?threads/the-yi-globe.7841/page-3

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Having said that, I still struggle in the context of this thread, to see how it accommodates the 6 changing lines in Hex 1 and Hex 2.

I get it, its all good, lets go into this then.
Imagine you knew all lines you change will bring different result not in the text. So if line 1 and line 2 change at the same time this iwll arrive at different outcome and with that has entirely different text.
You also knew people would be tempted to try to find text already in the book to read, as making their own text would be, undoubtedly much more difficult.
You had to find the shortest and non confusing way to say that.
Making line statements for all lines changing somewhere, seems very wise way to do it.
And there is easy way to check. If that is the case, then that statement wouldn't have anything very important in it. Will just be text working for situation when all lines change, with the idea to point out that is possible and the text for it is not in the book already.
As different systems now, would take hex 2 text, hex 1 text, all sorts of other texts and many other things.
Now we know, none of this is the same for the text with all changing lines in 1 and 2, so clearly that isn't how the system was supposed to be used.

But again - to show that we need to be sure there is nothing special in the text.

Here is Wilhelm through Baynes... But starting with Holding Together, so we can see that specific line is not that different or special by itself compared to others in the book.

HOLDING TOGETHER
Six at the top:

b) “He finds no head for holding together.”
Therefore he also fails to find the right end.
This line takes its position above the ruling yang
line. While the lower yielding lines find their head
in this yang line, the
yin line at the top has no head to follow and must
therefore go astray, particularly because it stands at
the top of the trigram K’an, danger.
The expression “no head” occurs also in the
hexagram of THE CREATIVE. There it has a
favorable meaning, because the hexagram has
nothing but strong lines, and thus the expression
signifies humility. Here it is unfavorable, because
the line is yielding. A yielding element with “no
head” bodes ill, because there is nothing to steady it.

While the actual text at Qian is:

Good fortune.
When all the lines are nines, it means that the whole
hexagram is in motion and changes into the
hexagram K’un, THE RECEPTIVE, whose
character is devotion. The strength of the Creative
and the mildness of the Receptive unite. Strength is
indicated by the flight of dragons, mildness by the
fact that their heads are hidden. This means that
mildness in action joined to strength of decision
brings good fortune.

Basically, when everything is moving at full speed, kicking the breaks on all possible levels can make it milder.
Seems to make sense.

In contrast to holding together, where if all is held by a leading person, whoever is above him - if they activate are in a very bad position. As basically all else have united against them, so nowhere they can go except far away. Can leave or not, but kinda not connected to much.
Yet the person asking may not be on the line that activates, so it kinda depends.

Yet this is Wilhelm and his teachers view, though. I have high respect for their material, but I do view line 6 very differently. But the idea seems the same - all line moving is just text that makes sense in context of all line moving, nothing more. : )
While the reason they are for 1 and 2 has to be found elsewhere and as already mention in my view, that may have much practical and unconnected reasons to the hexagrams themselves, as we can read above.

As we can see the text isn't anything that unique or special. Suggesting that may be the reason its there. As that is the only situation one would set it knowing its not that different them holding together.

Feel free to ask if you are missing the idea so far. Basically, its that they set that text only to show one can't find it in the book, has to make it themselve. So logically same counts for all cases of more then 1 changing lines.

 

[my_key]

Yet this is Wilhelm and his teachers view, though. I have high respect for their material, but I do view line 6 very differently. But the idea seems the same - all line moving is just text that makes sense in context of all line moving, nothing more. : )
While the reason they are for 1 and 2 has to be found elsewhere and as already mention in my view, that may have much practical and unconnected reasons to the hexagrams themselves,

Yes. I get that. Nothing new really, from my perspective.
You seem to be missing the point about me not seeing a connection between Yi-globe and the six changing lines. It seems that you are using smoke and mirrors rather than aiding me, and perhaps others, to see clearly and concisely the link that you said was so important to see.

So,where does the Yi-Globe come into it in terms of this thread? What is it bringing to the party with respect to 6 changing lines for hex 1 and 2?
Keep it simple, please. Focus on giving one paragraph. That is probably enough space to give a precis that will answer those two questions for me. I would like to understand.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Yes. I get all that. Nothing new really, from my perspective.

But where does the Yi-Globe come into it? What is it bringing to the party with respect to 6 changing lines for hex 1 and 2?
Keep it simple, please. Focus on giving one paragraph. That is probably enough space to give a precis that will answer those two questions for me.

Shows Qian and Kun as different then the others. All comes from Qian in a Cone shape downwards, all arrives at Kun.
If you imagine this as a construction of flowing water, all pouring down from Qian downwards and after arriving at Kun disapearing below, visually will be very easy to recognize. Nothing else will look the same, so one can say this is worthy of its own text/representation.
Not saying that is what they meant, though, but I assume something like this was what Hans_K meant, as after all the engine and all was his idea. I just suggested another representation for it that was already here before.

 

[my_key]

Shows Qian and Kun as different then the others. All comes from Qian in a Cone shape downwards, all arrives at Kun.
If you imagine this as a construction of flowing water, all pouring down from Qian downwards and after arriving at Kun disapearing below, visually will be very easy to recognize. Nothing else will look the same, so one can say this is worthy of its own text/representation.
Not saying that is what they meant, though, but I assume something like this was what Hans_K meant, as after all the engine and all was his idea. I just suggested another representation for it that was already here before.

Yes.... the other hexagrams all spring from Qian and Kun, so these two are different - Mum and Dad !!. Qian is the Creative Force and Kun the Receptive so I can see the flow from Heaven to Earth. However doesn't that downward cone shape theory apply for all aspects of Qian ( 0,1,2,3,4,5 or 6 changing lines) flowing to Kun. Whether or not there are 6 changing lines there is no differentiation displayed in the Yi-globe? The electric motor runs / the pouring down happens irrespective of the number of changing lines.

Yes, Hans made the original connection to an electric motor which I thought was a good analogy. Are you just linking his image of an electric motor and fitting it wholesale over the Yi-globe model, rather than being able to link the 6 changing lines to some other specific characteristic of the Yi-globe?

I don't doubt that I might be missing something important regarding connection to a specific characteristic. I have looked hard to identify this in your posts, so please let me know if that is the case.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Yes.... the other hexagrams all spring from Qian and Kun, so these two are different - Mum and Dad !!. Qian is the Creative Force and Kun the Receptive so I can see the flow from Heaven to Earth. However doesn't that downward cone shape theory apply for all aspects of Qian ( 0,1,2,3,4,5 or 6 changing lines) flowing to Kun. Whether or not there are 6 changing lines there is no differentiation displayed in the Yi-globe? The electric motor runs / the pouring down happens irrespective of the number of changing lines.

Yes, Hans made the original connection to an electric motor which I thought was a good analogy. Are you just linking his image of an electric motor and fitting it wholesale over the Yi-globe model, rather than being able to link the 6 changing lines to some other specific characteristic of the Yi-globe?

I don't doubt that I might be missing something important regarding connection to a specific characteristic. I have looked hard to identify this in your posts, so please let me know if that is the case.

Well... Imagine something happens that makes you sad... You go in the street and you see a happy elephant dancing. Suddenly you feel better, the problem doesn't seem so big and the elephant is soo funny, that for a time your understanding and reactions to the situation changes.
***
We have Kun. You are in peace.
Something happens, now we are at 64. You don't align with it. You are still in harmony, kinda, with yourself, but not with the environment. As you don't get why it happens, how to align with it or how to move from there.

Then we get to Qian(as the head). New information comes along. In this case in the form of a dancing elephent.
Assimilating that with time you get back to alignment with everything in 63.

Now you are at Kun in peace.
Something happens. Now again we are at 64. You don't align with it. You are...


The middle pillar here goes +-+-+-+-+- creating a dynamo getting everything else to move and interact and flow.
There are other similar 'movements' on the surface, month hexagrams being one, but that is the 'inner one'.

There is much, much more, just need to know what direction one wants to look at it from.

 

[my_key]

Well... Imagine something happens that makes you sad... You go in the street and you see a happy elephant dancing. Suddenly you feel better, the problem doesn't seem so big and the elephant is soo funny, that for a time your understanding and reactions to the situation changes.
***
We have Kun. You are in peace.
Something happens, now we are at 64. You don't align with it. You are still in harmony, kinda, with yourself, but not with the environment. As you don't get why it happens, how to align with it or how to move from there.

Then we get to Qian(as the head). New information comes along. In this case in the form of a dancing elephent.
Assimilating that with time you get back to alignment with everything in 63.

Now you are at Kun in peace.
Something happens. Now again we are at 64. You don't align with it. You are...


The middle pillar here goes +-+-+-+-+- creating a dynamo getting everything else to move and interact and flow.
There are other similar 'movements' on the surface, month hexagrams being one, but that is the 'inner one'.

There is much, much more, just need to know what direction one wants to look at it from.

Hi Tihia Vitar
You quote my post and then do not refer to it and additionally fail to answer my questions. That shows disrespect.
It's clear to me that you are switched onto transmit and not receive mode. However you do not wish to transmit on radio frequency Yi-globe any more it seems.

So I will peacefully withdraw and go to a place where I can best view and engage with my dancing elephants. You may have this field to yourself now. It is clear that you have much to say, however I'll leave it all with you to choose the direction in which you would most like your creative juices to flow.
Others may wish to join you there.
Good Luck

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Hi Tihia Vitar
You quote my post and then do not refer to it and additionally fail to answer my questions. That shows disrespect.
It's clear to me that you are switched onto transmit and not receive mode. However you do not wish to transmit on radio frequency Yi-globe any more it seems.

So I will peacefully withdraw and go to a place where I can best view and engage with my dancing elephants. You may have this field to yourself now. It is clear that you have much to say, however I'll leave it all with you to choose the direction in which you would most like your creative juices to flow.
Others may wish to join you there.
Good Luck

That is a wise move indeed. Engaging everyday with our dancing elephants is something we should all do from time to time.
Don't know what to say about the rest, if you have questions, as usual, feel free to ask. If you don't see the connection with the globe and missed the "middle pillar" part, also feel free to ask. If not, engaging the elephants is another wise move to do as well. : )

 

[my_key]

Richard Rutt adds a few possible alternatives and insights - P130 / 131 of his book.

(i) The 7th lines in H1 &H2 are probably not from 'the oldest stratum of the Zhouyi'
(ii) The 7th line in H1 could be a copyists mistake, and then H2 given an extra line for balance.
(iii) In the Chinese, the 7th lines are preceded by the term 'to use': to use 9 and to use 6 and could be interpreted as when all lines change this is the hexagram 2 form of hexagram 1, or this is the hexagram 1 form of hexagram 2.
(iv) The supernumerary lines were introduced after yin and yan were first associated with the hexagrams as people at the time couldn't get there heads around the concept that there would be occasion for wholly yang oracles for the archetypically yin hexagram and wholly yin oracles for the archetypically yang hexagram and and so something that sat half way pointing towards the yin-ness of yang and the yang-ness of yin could be more readily accepted.

He concludes by saying all of these are little more than suppositions as very little is known clearly about the early days of divination with I Ching.

 

[surnevs]

Hi my_key, If you want to expand your search maybe Bent Nielsen's pinyin word for "Use of ..." could help:

Bent Nielsen, A companion to Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology pg. 313



​

Besides this, in Wei Tat's book mentioned above, when I was surfing it through, there are two whole chapters concerning your inquiry:
Book II, Part I, Ch. X "On the use of Yang Lines" and
Book III, Part I, Ch. X "On the use of Yin Lines"
This means that for each of these initiating hexagrams, Ch'ien and K'un Wei Tat have an entire chapter for the 7th line statement.

 

[my_key]

Richard Bertschinger in'Yijing, Shamanic Oracle of China' has this to say:

Both the texts to All Lines Nines and All Lines Sixes in these first two hexagrams refer to devotion being restored at source.
The top line in The Creative shows an arrogant dragon who has lost his way and is breaking up. So All Lines Nines restores the Path through creating a flock of dragons without a head.

The top line in The Receptive (2) shows belligerent dragons fighting in the wilderness – they have lost their devotion. So All Lines Sixes speaks of everlasting devotion being favourable. Devotion sustains the source of the virtue.

At the hour around midnight it is the beginning of the new day yet still the previous night. This is to be without a head. Similarly spring begins the year without a head, and at the same time completes the year over its end. This is the power of the dragons without a head.

See a flock of dragons without a head!
This idea is not easy to grasp, but not difficult to understand.
The idea being not easy to grasp makes it easier to understand.

This illustrates a case of having no-beginning and no-ending. It can be extended to all people and situations, ten-thousand in all. Now there is good fortune!

Yin and Yang take their cue from one another, alternating in an endless cycle – there is nothing The Creative does not influence nor The Receptive bless. All the lines illustrate the ultimately mysterious mixing together of Yin and Yang, heaven and earth.

 

[surnevs]

A straightforward explanation came to me recently: The two first hexagrams are the only ones with pure Yang or pure Yin. All of the other 62 hexagrams are mixed in yin and yang.
That Yin should find a place in the first hexagram Ch´íen or Yang should find a place in K'un - the second hexagram - would be wrong because, then either of these two hexagrams would be what they are.
From this, it follows that "all lines changing" neither for Ch´ien nor for K´un can be interpreted as the hexagram being its opposite... I mean: normally when all the lines are changing you read the Omen in the evolved hexagram (well, OK, 'normally' can be discussed) but as the evolved hexagram for Ch´ien would be K´un and the other way around would be to say that Yin could be an interpretation for Yang and Yang could be an interpretation for Yin. And this is what would be wrong about it...

 

[my_key]

Tuck Chang in 'Unveiling the Mystery of the I Ching'

Not a complete extract from the book, but I believe the original sentiments remain.

The Changing Qian using all lines in 9. All six lines start changing to the feminine and hexagram Kun (submissive, earth) emerges

Text: a flock of dragons appear without a leader, (which is of) auspiciousness.

Explanation: Qian is the head and honoured as the leader. When it is changing to Kun, it possesses the norm of that hexagram and becomes submissive and respective. After that, the six lines won't compete for leadership, there is no longer any leader required, and they will live together peacefully.


The Changing Kun using all lines in 6. If all six lines are cast as the old feminine, it is known as changing Kun. All six lines start changing to the masculine and hexagram Qian emerges

Text: it is advantageous, or appropriate, to persist (in the norm of hexagram Kun) everlastingly.

Explanation: The appropriateness or advantage of hexagram Kun is seen in the persistence and steadfastness of its norm. Though all the lines start changing to masculine, the norm of hexagram Kun must remain unchanged.

 

[my_key]

A straightforward explanation came to me recently: The two first hexagrams are the only ones with pure Yang or pure Yin. All of the other 62 hexagrams are mixed in yin and yang.
That Yin should find a place in the first hexagram Ch´íen or Yang should find a place in K'un - the second hexagram - would be wrong because, then either of these two hexagrams would be what they are.
From this, it follows that "all lines changing" neither for Ch´ien nor for K´un can be interpreted as the hexagram being its opposite... I mean: normally when all the lines are changing you read the Omen in the evolved hexagram (well, OK, 'normally' can be discussed) but as the evolved hexagram for Ch´ien would be K´un and the other way around would be to say that Yin could be an interpretation for Yang and Yang could be an interpretation for Yin. And this is what would be wrong about it...

62 hexagrams being a mix of yin and yang resonates strongly. I have just been musing over Tuck Chang's comments, that I have posted above. He is ok with saying 6 line yang changes to take on yin qualities, however 6 line yin changes cannot take on yang qualities.

A quick precis might be thus. Yang changes to yin to become submissive, thereby avoiding of the conflict of too many leaders. Once submissive and receptive the leaders are superfluous to the requirements of balanced peace.
His take on Yin I'm still pondering. Even though all the 6 lines change yin is not allowed to take on the leadership qualities of yang. It must be everlastingly devotional.

Perhaps it is only in the Kun to Qian transformation that there is a inherent wrongness.

 

[surnevs]

It'll have to be something like: A dragon can shift shape etc. etc. but a mare can't. But I do still hold on to that pure Yang is pure Yang, without the slightest Yin in it, and vice versa with pure Yin - and from here follows that all of the remaining 62 hexagrams, produced by Ch´ien and K´un, have Yang as well as Yin in them so that when they got all lines being Six or Nine's will be able to shift into each other... While pure Yang or pure Yin will remain pure Yang and pure Yin no matter what. That's my take on it and I've learned that I can be wrong even when most sure, so I will try to be open to whatever may oppose to it.

 

[surnevs]

In Joseph Adler's translation of "Introduction to the Study of the Classic of Change" by Chu Hsi in chapter IV there is an explanation of this "Using 9's" and "Using 6's". It's available for free in PDF and I do think it was actually linked to here in OnlineClarity ? If you happen not to have it or the printed book I'll find my pdf copy and highlight this section and post it here...
_____________________

It's to be found here (on pg. 62)

 

[surnevs]

I have just reached the part in chapter 5 of E.L. Shaughnessy's book "The Origin and Early Development of the Zhou Changes" *) where he explains Gao Heng's attempt to explain how changing lines were chosen in ancient times (the paper can be reached at Birocco's site.) and found that the pinyin-Chinese words for "Use the Nine & Use the Six" ie all lines changing in Hex. 1 and 2 is Yong jiu and Yong liu respectively (Yong: to use, jiu: Nine, Liu: Six)
I think you can get deeper information when searching with these words. I have attached some of it here.

*) ch. 5 pg. 252, Brill Boston 2022

 

[my_key]

Hi surnevs
You keep coming across these little gems. Thank you for sharing again.

 

[surnevs]

".... Needless to say, this is no more than a guess." Quote from note 13, E.L. Shaughnessy "The origin and early development of the Zhou Changes", Ch. 10, pg. 412, after he gave his bet on understanding the Using 6 and vice versa 9. I think, that when he, who has more access to material, in Chinese too, than most people around working with this, underlines his take on it as a guess maybe this will be it (?)

Add.: Generally, when something stays unsolved, that's where it starts being interesting (generally because it's not found that there isn't an answer to your question - yet)