Excerpt, Li She Da Chuan

[bradford_h]

I swore I wasn't going to get into this again.
I promised myself. Even said it earlier in this topic.
But that damned bait just looked soooo tasty.
I'm walking away now. Taking the First Step:
admitting that I am powerless.
Turning it over, to the centuries.
If I bring this up again, somebody please shoot me.

 

[hilary]

And just when I'd started selling tickets!
*Sigh*

 

[bruce]

Mr. Bradford, step AWAY from the keyboard!

 

[bruce]

Maybe this is inappropriate for this type of thread, but while Harmen is still here - I'd be curious about how humor is seen from the core and as-literal-as-possible translation of Yi Jing. It seems the older I get, the more the Yi plays little, subtle, clever tricks within its answers. And I hear the gods laughing more at our foolishness.

So, what of humor within I Ching, from a literalist perspective?

 

[hmesker]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I'd be curious about how humor is seen from the core and as-literal-as-possible translation of Yi Jing. It seems the older I get, the more the Yi plays little, subtle, clever tricks within its answers.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Bruce, these are two different things you describe. I don't find humor in the <u>text</u> of the Yi, but surely there can be humor in its <u>answers</u>. But humor is a personal affair; if you don't have it, you will never find it in the answers of the Yi.

HM

 

[bruce]

Whoa! Thanks for such a quick reply, Harmen.

So then the only humor is the humor we personally already have or create. Maybe it's just me, but I find that very funny! Do you suppose the authors did, too? And if so, where is that to be found within the text? But you've already answered that question. It isn't. You see what I'm getting at? The Spirit is missing in literalism. And that's fine, in my unknowing opinion, because much can be learned from examining things in a laboratory setting. But much is missing, as well.

 

[kevin]

This must be a problem for translators too.

If one were to assume that there was humour then one might choose one single English word to represent the glyph...

If one sees no humour in the authorial intent then that word must not be the right one and another is chosen?

Similarly with word play I expect.

I am mindful of Nostradamus and the immense amount of work which was put in to deciphering his work.

Following some stunningly simple research we now know that his work was a coded critique of the Machiavellian Court and that those in the court, at the time, would readily understand the metaphors criticising key courtiers. Had he written in plain language he would not have lived very long.

Oh, my... The perils the perils!

--Kevin

 

[hmesker]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The Spirit is missing in literalism.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Ah, you equal Spirit with humor? Interesting. Does that mean that if something does not have humor, it does not have Spirit either? Humor is to a large extend formed by cultural and personal upbringing. People without humor are not necessarily people without Spirit. I think. But maybe I think too much.

HM

 

[hilary]

Ah, Bruce, you need Brad's appendix!
Erm.
Here's a direct link to it: right-click to download.

 

[bruce]

Saved and saved, Hilary. Thank you.

Harmen, that's a good point. I don't know, really, if being without humor is also being without Spirit. My spirit tells me it would be without Spirit, but as I've said, maybe that's just me.

I have observed many religious groups, from within the group. Those who were without humor surely did appear to be without Spirit. I can't think of a single person I know or have known who had no humor and also had the appearence of Spirit.

I think Jesus propably had a lot of humor. You can read it between many of his best lines, especially when talking to Peter. Interesting to think what difference that could make in the spirit of his followers.

Ok, I'm rambling now.

 

[bruce]

Great article! I especially appreciate "Appendix 2: Humor in the Zhouyi". Very funny, in fact!

 

[bradford_h]

If I had to suggest the two strongest points of Zhouyi humor I would say irony and caricature.

But if anybody objects I'm not gonna argue.

 

[kevin]

Yes Brad,

Your insight of word play and humour enabled me to see more of the beauty as well as the meaning in parts of the text. Irony - most definitely irony and plenty of it I think.

I now read the Yi with a little more of the sparkly eye in mind.

Cheers

--Kevin

PS - The Kitten is using blanks.

 

[micheline]

Irony and caricature......so true!

I am also agreeing with the rambling that Spirit and Humor are pretty much inseparable. Maybe because Spirit does not take anything too seriously, it can't be heavy handed without coming down with a WHOMP into the world of matter.

Spirit has a light touch, is bouyant, delighted and unbound. Like the shaman told Bradford, if you are feeling good, you are in your power..if you are DOWN, you are disempowered. (or something like that)And isnt it always humor of some kind that lifts the spirit best?

 

[bradford_h]

I find it telling which "belief" systems don't appreciate humor, or consider it sacred, and which do - it almost goes along the lines of whether "belief" should be in quotes or not. The original Daoism, Sufism and Zen seem to like laughing so much more than the others. They also don't have beliefs to defend, as these are commonly understood. I just enjoy seeing the Yi in this category.

 

[bradford_h]

Kevin's point about the problem for translators is important. The Yi really needs to stay on multiple layers and levels to serve different people and needs. A line that's hysterically funny one moment may also need to comfort somebody in a trajedy or advise on something dangerous to watch out for. I like keeping a little ambiguity in there for that reason and relegating explicitly popping the humor to the commentary. But if you bury it too deeply in the translation nobody ever gets it. It's a Zhong Dao (Middle Path) thing I guess.
In the old days it Really needed a back door of ambiguity, just in case it pissed off the king. You needed a more serious interpretation to show him.

 

[kevin]

Hi Brad

Nicely put - Wholeheartedly agree. Having met a real shaman (Vodoun), as you have, and a Rinpoche etc. myself the one thing that struck me imediately was the lightness of their grip on matters around them... and they laugh every other moment.

I almost believe that true numen is indicated by humour... 'cept occasionally one meets meaner things... not funny... 'nother story.

The Shaman and occasionally the Sadhus did have a propensity to be a little grumpy tho'.



--Kevin

A vodoun laugh is a many faceted thing tho' - lol

 

[kevin]

Crossed post

--K

 

[bruce]

A shaman isn't tied to anyone's expectation or opinion. To this day I'm still fond of the shaman depicted in the Castaneda books - Don Juan. Completely unpredictable. Poor Carlos could never be sure whether to take him seriously or laugh along with him. And when Carlos did something he was proud of, rather than Juan patting him on the back for it, he usually insulted him. Poor Carlos. But also, when Carlos thought he must have messed up badly, Juan rewarded him with more power. Not an altogether different set of dynamics from Yi and the apprentice, me thinks.

 

[kevin]

Mea Culpa - A cruel and unatural thing.

Spiritual castration.

What is life worth if we cannot find joy and celebrate it and ourselves - inocently - without guilt?

--K

 

[kevin]

Chuckles Bruce - yes

 

[bradford_h]

K-
Almost everyone's idea of what a shaman is comes from books and articles. That's a whole lot like studying Darwin in Church. Nice to hear some corroboration. A great sense of humor is definitely one of the more striking things about them. That and penetrating insights about how we carry ourselves psychologically. Of course if you're on the outside looking in they will look exactly like you expect them to be, and they're more than a little likely to play or run with that.

B-
I'm a long-time fan of Don Juan and Don Genero too. Real or not, they're actually fairly plausible characters.

 

[bruce]

Brad, they are indeed plausible. The lessons from it continue to play out in my life, repeatedly. In addition to the magical stuff, there's just some very practical and useable methods of doing every day things more efficiently.

 

[bradford_h]

I did forget to say plausible, "allowing for a little active imagination on Carlos' part and as seen from his point of view". But yes, practical lessons for everyday life, how to be a better father, how to handle criticism or anxiety. They were the first psychologists after all.
And the Yi came out of that tradition. Harmen's Keightly article correctly pointed out that later "statist" phase, which I hadn't seen put in those terms before. Of course, that doesn't mean that the training didn't retain the older "ecstatic methods", or as we apprentices put it, breaking open our heads. We just needed to learn to put our heads back together better, so we could function at the royal court without drooling and flopping around on the floor.

 

[bruce]

RE: drooling and flopping around on the floor

I?m sure there are many apprentices who spend most of their lives in mental institutions. I think that?s why such things ought be reserved for older age, when mescal and miracles are both taken with a grain of salt.