New Here - many Questions

[_notan_]

Hi there- My name is Scott, and I am new to both the forum and the I Ching. I'm currently reading through the Wilhelm translation, having never consulted as of yet. I know that many see this is a "no no", but I like to get an overview of a system before I try to work with it.

I'm trying to get my head around the way that the hexagrams are organized. Am I nuts, or have I seen more than one order for the Hexagrams while thumbing through the various books? Seems like at one point that I had decided that there was no (visual) logic to the prograssion from 1 to 64, but I'm finding that there is (at least in Wilhelm).

Also- I'm trying to understand the hexagram relations on a line by line basis. If you were to look at 2 hexagrams that only have one line of difference between them (say #1 & #
9) are these two "answers" supposed to be more similar than the difference between 2 hexagrams that have ALL lines different (like # 1 & # 2)? Would there then be 6 hexagrams for each hexagram that are closer in meaning than any of the others (because they all have only 1 line of difference)? Are hex 1 & 2 somehow as opposite to each other as can be made in this system? Am I off the mark completely?

I've also read a little bit about the "nuclear hexagrams", and I have to say that this idea seems to be adding a level of meaning that was likely NOT a part of the original idea. It seems like just arbitrarily making a rule for a "back-up hexagram" in case you can't pull any meaning out of your original cast. I can think of several ways that make more (intuitive) sense to me such as placing the top trigram on the bottom & vice versa, changing all lines, flipping the hexagram on it's head..... But I'm not too sure about any of these methods either since I'm still getting a feel for how the hexagrams are organized (or indeed IF they are organized) in a way that makes these kinds of manipulations meaningful. I haven't even, as of yet, read through all of the hexagram texts (let alone play around with the ideas above) but these questions are already comming to mind.

Finally, I'm interested in the methods people use for building hexagrams. I suppose that if you believe that there is an aspect to "magic" or syncronicity to it, you can assume that you will get the "right" results no matter if you toss coins, manipulate yarrow sticks, draw marbles or throw dice. On the other hand- if you look at the book as a collection of wisdom- each part of which can be applied to ANY situation, then it doesn't matter which way you determine your hexagram..... Indeed- is there any arguement that the method of determing your hexagram will affect the *quality* of your readings? I do understand that since the yarrow stick method takes time, that it gives you the opportunity to meditate on your question as the response is built (and that once you "know" the system, you will be able to see which answers are comming before they ultimately reach completion).

Well- I guess that's all for now. I know it's a boatload of questions, and I think that even for the experienced, some of these questions haven't been fully resolved- I don't expect hard answers to all (any) of it.

-Scott

 

[jesed]

Hi Scott

Wise questions...


About the system to built the hexagram...

In the teachings I had learned, Yi is based on a cosmological point of view; this cosmological point of view is showed by line-forms (hexagram)... this line-form is expresed by numerological rules; and this numerological rules are simplified by words (in the school of "text" analysis) or symbols (in the school of "mathematical" analysis)

From a numerological point of view, there are diferences between the yarrow stalks method and the coin method (and others methods)... not only about statistical probability to gert an old yang or a young yinn... but in the posibilities to built complementary hexagrams.

1.- With the yarrow stalks method, you can built the following hexagrams:
a) Macrocosmical Regency
b) Principal Hexagram
c) Subjective Tendency Hexagram (tendential hexagram, also called related hexagram, also called resultant hexagram)
d) Objective Past cause Hexagrams (at least 2, at most 4 hexagrams)
e) Objective Future Hexagrams (at least 2, at most 4 hexagrams)
f) Microcosmical cause hexagram(s) (at least 1, at most 2 hexagrams)
g) Interlinked hexagram
h) Binary Interlinked hexagrams (at least 1, at most 4)
i) Ambushed hexagrams: 3 hexagrams... 1) placing the top trigram on the bottom & vice versa, 2) changing all lines and 3) flipping the hexagram on it's head
j) Binary ambushed hexagrams: (at least 1, at most 4)

Each one of this has its own place and meaning.

2.- With coin method, you can built the following hexagrams:
a) Principal Hexagram
b) Subjective Tendency Hexagram (tendential hexagram, also called related hexagram, also called resultant hexagram)
c) Objective Past cause Hexagram (just one)
d) Objective Future Hexagrams (just one)
e) Interlinked hexagram
f) Ambushed hexagrams: 3 hexagrams... 1) placing the top trigram on the bottom & vice versa, 2) changing all lines and 3) flipping the hexagram on it's head

Now... the hexagrams that you can built in yarrow stalks method but not in coin method has macrocosmical meanings.... so, it is said in this tradition that one CAN use coin method for common questions, and reserve yarrow stalks method for macrocosmical researches.

But... most of this numerological uses of yi jing are already simplified in the text and comments for the hexagrams and lines (in the Scholar school based on text) or in the energetical symbols of the lines (in the mathematical method)

So, in practical use of Yi Jing , one can handdle pretty well without knowing all this numerological stuff. Now, if one want to achieve a deeper undertanding of Yi as a system (and use the macrocosmical tools), it is necesary to study this aspect.

I hope this be useful...or at least hope I don't increase the doubts

Best wishes

 

[jte]

Hi, Scott -

Just to address some basics of your question about the sequence, the order you see in Wilhelm is known as the King Wen sequence. It's the one you're most likely to see in most credible translations. You'll notice that the sequence breaks the hexagrams into complementary pairs, although the way in which they are complementary is more obvious in some cases than in others. As your understanding of the book deepens, some of the less obvious ones will probably become clearer over time. There is also a distinction between the first 30 hexagrams of the sequence and the "second half" (31-64). Although I personally haven't gotten much out of the distinction, there might be something to it that I haven't picked up on.

By tradition, this ordering is attributed to the historical figure King Wen who supposedly also wrote the Judgements (the main text that goes with each hexagram, not including the "Great Image") while imprisoned by his tyrannical king (Wen was a feudal lord at the time and supposedly was made a King posthumously by his son after a successful rebellion against the tyrant.)

What's more likely, albeit much less romantic, is that the diviners/shamans of the time developed the order and the text of the judgements. Many other orders have been developed and used over time, but, whatever wisdom might be contained in some of them, these alternatives are marginal relative to the KW sequence.

"... I suppose that if you believe that there is an aspect to "magic" or syncronicity to it, you can assume that you will get the "right" results ... if you look at the book as a collection of wisdom- each part of which can be applied to ANY situation, then it doesn't matter which way you determine your hexagram... is there any arguement that the method ... will affect ... readings?"

Heh. Arguments are many, facts precious few. I can vouch that the journey will be interesting, though. Whatever explanations you end up coming up with for yourself, you'll almost certainly find that there's a lot more to the I Ching than meets the eye.

- Jeff

 

[bradford]

I know that many see this is a "no no", but I like to get an overview of a system before I try to work with it.
-Scott

You will go far with this attitude, Grasshopper.
Just two cautions here:
1) Some of the structural ideas you will be reading about are made up much later and do a poor job of explaining anything (i.e. correctness, holding together). Some were important from the very beginning (like Inverse and Opposite Hexagrams, the basis of the meaningul part of the sequence). Some are mixed (Nuclear Hexagrams didn't appear for about seven centuries, while Nuclear Trigrams are much much older). It's easy to get lost in the structure if you can't decide what are the important elements and do Triage.
2) There's Deductive (general to specific) and Inductive (specific to general) processes. You can't build a complete knowledge of the Yi just from understanding the system. You gotta keep throwing them coins and applying the metaphors and analogies to everyday life. It's really important to learn first hand how these symbols adapt to just about any situation. This is where much of the mental improvement comes in.

 

[heylise]

Bradford
:bows:
LiSe

 

[lightofreason]

2) There's Deductive (general to specific) and Inductive (specific to general) processes. You can't build a complete knowledge of the Yi just from understanding the system. You gotta keep throwing them coins and applying the metaphors and analogies to everyday life. It's really important to learn first hand how these symbols adapt to just about any situation. This is where much of the mental improvement comes in.

There is also Abductive. Inductive assumes no existing hypothesis, does not perform a search for such.

Abductive does 'due diligence' in that, seeing a particular pattern that appears to be 'meaningful' it either (a) elicits recall of the hypothesis it is related to (validates it or not) or (b) elicits a scan through the set of existing hypotheses to see where it 'fits' - this can be creative in that it allows for novel associations.

The representations of the IC serve to cover an asymmetric perspective on reality, and so reflects our brains at work. WITHIN that asymmetry we find the symmetric and the anti-symmetric (hierarchic)

These are covered in the IC in different forms of ordering hexagrams etc (there are LOTS)- e.g.

Structural focus is on Fu Hsi orderings of trigrams.
Temporal/Five-Phase more on King Wen orderings of trigrams.
Hierarchical more on the 'Family' orderings of trigrams.

Chris.

 

[peter]

Re

Hi Scott,

Some of your questions need your own experience to answer. Concerning "random answers" - read the "Introduction to I Ching" by Carl Gustav Jung, I recently read it myself and was deeply impressed. He talks about synchronicity - a principle that is "ortogonal", so to say, to causality. So you can want to take divination time into account.

 

[_notan_]

Thanks for all your input. I am still moving through reading all the hexagrams. I think that Bradford hit the nail on the head with his point about having to approach it as an oracle in order to really start "getting it".

I'm really not so sure about the commentaries on the hexagram meanings (again, I'm reading Wilhelm-Baynes). Often, there seems to be a lot more information being pulled out of a line than is actually there in the line itself. In a weird way, these extensive commentaries can limit your potential readings by narrowing your own interpretation. I'm sure that there is a vast tradition feeding these commentaries, but at the same time I can see that they can be both helpful or destructive to the reading process.....

Anyway- I'm still here, mostly staying quiet until I have something more informed to say.

 

[heylise]

Too much information narrowing down my own understanding, that is the same experience I have.
When I have a clear simple image of a line, I usually get a big clear message.

LiSe