The Tao-ites and the Karcher-ites

[ryder]

Sorry, Hilary, I posted before I saw your message. I'm trying not to be a pathological poster, but I still don't entirely get it. It is certainly true that "the cat" and "the future" are quite different, but wouldn't the same difference exist between any tangible object and an abstract idea? The "cat" vs. the "truth"? Now let's say the idea of the future is adequately expressed by "coming" - my next question would be, coming from where? Where does what is happening in the present come from? This is that "river running backward" business I've never been able to grasp. Is there a big storehouse of events out there that is rushing at us? Or maybe the future unfolds like an accordion? Where do the Tetris blocks come from? Help!

 

[frandoch]

The concept of time as flowing from the 'past' to the 'future' is a construct of the conscious mind as a way to explain 'change'. The subconscious and unconscious minds have no concept of time as a flow. To them, everything is in the NOW moment. Our left brains operate logically, i.e. in a linear manner, because we have thoughts one after another, but the right brain operates holistically.

Consider an analogy - that life events (and possibly past lives, if you're into that)are a series of CDs laid out in a long line stretching from the 'past' to the 'future'. This is how the left brain experiences reality. Now consider that the CDs are collected up and placed in a vertical stack. This will mean that all these events are actually in the NOW moment, and some spiritual disciplines believe that they are all accessible.

Perhaps our linear thinking allows us to experience things one at a time, instead of all at once, cos then, what would we do for the rest of eternity ?

Michael F.

 

[hilary]

Ah, but Michael, our flow here is going the other way: from future to past. And there isn't such a thing as 'the rest of eternity', surely - isn't eternity the absence of time?

Anyway, wherever do the Tetris blocks come from? I think I'd better read the Dazhuan - again.

Another way might indeed be to see it all simultaneously present, in Michael's style (it may not make much odds which way up we stack our CDs) but at different 'levels' of reality-for-us? That which isn't yet present as reality is already present as pattern, which is why we can 'know the seeds'.

But this is coming out unspeakably garbled. Don't take my word for it - read the Dazhuan. Richard Rutt's translation (in his 'Zhouyi') is very plain and simple, no later metaphysical strata added. Well, perhaps not exactly simple, but plain.

 

[lenardthefast]

Hi Michael,

What a truly wonderful analogy for a concept that is extremely difficult for the human brain to comprehend. Read a Sci-American article about 1 1/2 years ago where the author(a Brit physicist, I believe), was postulating that there was absolutely no 'flow' of time whatsoever; it was a totally human concept and that everything was actually all happening simultaneously.(past, present AND future). No Big Bang, just a Big NOW.

When I finished reading the article my brain felt like silly putty; reminded me of trying to pet a bubble when I was a child and feeling perplexed at the 'almost' of it. I believe it but I certainly haven't experienced it. (yet)

Anyway, thanks for the analogy, even if I DO have to put away all these CD's. (In a stack, of course...Now, lets see, should I try alphabetically by artist or were they by musical type or was it chronologically...nope, THAT won't work anymore 'cos there is no chrono.....dern, I think I'll just put 'em in the machine and press 'shuffle'.)

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[django]

Hi
regarding a previous post, in that Joseph Needham spent 40 years trying to discover why the Chinese never had a science [like us] if I remember an emminent scientist asked Jung that very question
to which Jung replied..."oh but they have, It is called the I Ching.

I see in an other post someone has read a new biography on Jung and has managed to change their view of "the Great Man" ...well biographies are easy when the subject is dead and not there to address any criticism. Some how I reckon Jung will still be there when the biographer is looooong gone.
Django.

 

[lenardthefast]

Thanks, Django,

He was a GREAT man, and no biographer can change what he has helped me to understand. I regard him as one of the heros of our time, perhaps, all time.(Oh, if that exists anymore) *grin* I say FOOEY and PFUTTS to all who would disparage him. May a small curse infect their bottoms and irritate them whenever they sit.

Oh so true what you say also about deriding the dead, shame on them.

Right on, Bro.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[gene]

I am tiger hear me roar
My claws too sharp to ignore.
And you best not tread upon my tail.
If my claws don't get to you
My teeth are quite sharp too
And you know they surely will prevail.

Yes, I am strong like the first gua the creative
But can be soft like gua two the receptive.

I know you are all thinking. SHUT UP!!! So I will

Gene

 

[ryder]

My God, the ignorance in this forum is thicker than molasses. Nobody seems to know what they are talking about. Nobody seems to know much of anything about anything. How do you avoid boring each other to death with your muddle? You call this ?clarity?? I?d hate to witness confusion. But don?t disturb yourselves ? I can find the door. I need a little oxygen. Maybe the stimulation of talking with an intelligent 8 year-old. Goodbye.

 

[misslotusshoes]

Mr Longhushan
Temple of Tiger Shaman, Liu

MLS was thinking today that its time we major groups of I Ching practice-Jungian, Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist (hardly anyone ever thinks of them) approaches. [What categories best describe us really?] Isn't it time we knew each other and could be familiar with the fundamentals of each?

The Buddhists are very wise in their concept of time: They say "only the unenlightened perceive the flow of time" To them there is a realm where time flows and also a timeless realm existing alongside of it.

The Buddhists are also wise in the ways of the moon. "Put aside all conflict and purify on the full moon."

After seeing Luis' picture, MLS cannot say more, the moon is at the full!

Blessings,

MLS

 

[heylise]

That which isn't yet present as reality is already present as pattern, which is why we can 'know the seeds'.

But this is coming out unspeakably garbled. Don't take my
word for it - read the Dazhuan.

Or read quantum mechanics: everything is present as a wave, but our 'looking at it' makes it collapse into an event.

LiSe

 

[hilary]

Nice pattern, LiSe

Thank heavens for ignorance - how else would we learn anything?
(Scientific mindset, 101...)

 

[chrislofting]

LiSe,

not so simple re QM ;-) the WHOLE is a direct reflection of the IC (particle - yang, differentiating. wave - yin, integrating - whole androgyne ;-) - but the representation of the whole, its overall integration is reflected in yiness - yang is exaggeration ;-)

The structuring of our experiments have come out of 'yangness' and in doing so have ignored considering that both yin and yang are expressed!

yangness is the realm of our consciousness nature and as such is parts oriented, serial in thinking. Yinness, or what it represents expressed as a part is the realm of our species nature - it is holistic in that it interacts immediately with the context, stimulus/response.

Our consciousness does not appreciate that and so creates paradox when it creates experiments!

see:

http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/species.html

Chris.

 

[lenardthefast]

I live in my own little world. But it's OK. They know me here.

Namaste,

Leonard