Walking the I Ching

[frank_r]

Does anybody know this book? http://www.amazon.com/Walking-I-Chi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257493440&sr=8-1
It is working with the Yi and the 8 houses, very intersting for people that want to combine Tai qi or Qi gong and the Yi.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Frank,

I had it in my hands a couple of times in the bookstore. Although I buy pretty much everything it comes out, I haven't yet spent the money for it. Not in my priority list. It is, like you say, catered for people that want to combine Tai Chi with Yi visualizations. Bagua Qi Gong/Tai Chi exercises, etc.

 

[sergio]

Hi Frank;
I just discovered your post somewhat buried in the list.I do have the book.As Luis said it is a good buy if you are into martial arts and the i ching connection.Most internal martial arts claim a connection to the I Ching but very few actually justify that with more than statements.I remember a book of Da liu and another one from Alve Olsen(tai chi according to the i ching)but to me the connections are rather tenuos.Just attaching hexagram names and numbers to postures does not do it and ,in the case of Olsen's book,it is a rather complicated and convoluted explanation,too elaborate to make it into the everyday practise of the art except as an intelectual exercise.
Now,coming back to the book,Ba Gua is one of the few internal martial arts that may claim a direct relationship to the I Ching and this book actually supports that partially well.It shows a connection of the postures to the hexagrams as related not to the sequence but to the houses of the hexagrams,something brilliantly explained by Harmen Mesker some time ago.Here the same arrangement is used and it also shows the relationship both to ba gua directions,to the organs in the human body and also meditations pertaining each of the houses to do before practising the forms.I still do not see a clear connection of the postures to the hexagrams other than attaching a certain set of postures to a house but I guess that may become apparent in daily practise-this is the kind of activity you just can't apprehend by reading a book;one must experience it in the daily practise of the art.I found the book to be well writen ,well explained and researched and highly recommend it to martial arts/i ching fans.
Sergio

 

[frank_r]

Hi Frank;
I just discovered your post somewhat buried in the list.I do have the book.As Luis said it is a good buy if you are into martial arts and the i ching connection.Most internal martial arts claim a connection to the I Ching but very few actually justify that with more than statements.I remember a book of Da liu and another one from Alve Olsen(tai chi according to the i ching)but to me the connections are rather tenuos.Just attaching hexagram names and numbers to postures does not do it and ,in the case of Olsen's book,it is a rather complicated and convoluted explanation,too elaborate to make it into the everyday practise of the art except as an intelectual exercise.
Now,coming back to the book,Ba Gua is one of the few internal martial arts that may claim a direct relationship to the I Ching and this book actually supports that partially well.It shows a connection of the postures to the hexagrams as related not to the sequence but to the houses of the hexagrams,something brilliantly explained by Harmen Mesker some time ago.Here the same arrangement is used and it also shows the relationship both to ba gua directions,to the organs in the human body and also meditations pertaining each of the houses to do before practising the forms.I still do not see a clear connection of the postures to the hexagrams other than attaching a certain set of postures to a house but I guess that may become apparent in daily practise-this is the kind of activity you just can't apprehend by reading a book;one must experience it in the daily practise of the art.I found the book to be well writen ,well explained and researched and highly recommend it to martial arts/i ching fans.
Sergio

Hello Sergio,

I also found it a interesting book but also didn't see the hexagram back in the posture or movements.
But I only studies it from the book I didn't tried or exercised it myself.
A few weeks ago I had some e-mail contact with the writer, a very nice guy and he explained me the connections with the planets and herbs with the trigrams. Maybe thats a good question to ask him, if there is a connection on a rational level with the hexagrams and the postures/movements.

I once did some tai qi lessons with somebody here in holland she had movements connected with the trigrams that made sense to me. But I never found connections with the hexagrams. Thats why I found this book quit interesting.

Frank

And also Luis thanks for answering.

 

[pantherpanther]

From looking at Allen Pitman's book, it seems he may have not studied Ba gua for more than a few years, although he has studied other forms for many years and taught them. I expect he is highly qualifed to teach other forms judging from the teachers he worked with. Tai chi (and other forms) are not Ba gua, yet he seems prone to interpret the latter in terms of the former.

The way he presents the sequencing of the palms and their relation to the hexagrams is not correct. The diagrams in the book do not correspond to what is stated in the original notes. The 64 palms are meant to be performed with the body leaning slightly forward and not upright.

His brief comparisons to other traditions are rather superficial and not based on reliable evidence.

The study of the I Ching is integral to learning Ba gua. My teacher, B K Frantzis stresses that his Ba gua pupils study it together with learning the different palm changes.

 

[sergio]

Hi Panther;
Just a few notes to your post.Mr. Pittman is not new to Ba Gua boxing,One need only remember his 1989 book"Pa kua-eight trigram boxing"written by Robert W. Smith and Allen Pittman.from Tuttle Publishing.In this slim book they describe the Ba Gua system of Wang Shu-chin.
(I hope you will find no problem with his lineage since he is mentioned in Frantzis excellent book "The power of internal martial arts")Smith and Pittman start by delineating the basic principles to practise this art and on page 41 on section5 they say"To let your nerves function naturally,keep your body erect from the neck to the tip of you coccyx".This is something Wang Shi-shin thought was absolutely necessary to perform his art correctly.Some other teachers-like Park Bok Nam-says it is better to bend the spine slightly to issue more power so,as you can see ,there are different opinions on the subject based on different needs and objetives of each practicioners art tradition.Iam not familiar with Frantzis' approach to Ba gua since the only mention of his that I know is from his "Relaxing into your being" book vol.1 in which he describes very basic directives to circle walking and turns.There is no mention to the positioning of the spine.I am eagerly waiting for his book on BAGUA,Based on his analysis of the art in the aforementioned book of internal arts,it will be a keeper for sure.
On the matter of credentials I have nothing but to take Pittman's word for it as I did with Frantzis.The real test of fire is for anyone to have to use all this we are learning to effectively defend ourselves when we need to.It is not enough to learn it from a tournament fighter or from someone that only does it for spiritual development.If one is not able to survive an attack there is little chance one will continue his/her spiritual development.Mr.Pittman ,according to him,has worked as bodyguard thus having ample chance to test his art .Critizising anybody just on their spine alignment or"tenuos lineage"(taking in considerations that both the origins and subsequent lineages are not proven facts and are source of much discord)is first a sign of very bad Wu De.Give them a try and see for yourself if the art is for you and if it does what it claim it does,then exercise your criticism at will.
On the subject of your opinion that the sequencing of the palms their relationship to the trigrams is not correct,I would very much like to read your explanation why is that as well as your claim that" they do not correspond to... the original notes".Did you have access to them?
Finally, I congratulate you for having the good luck to study with Mr. Frantzis.
Sergio

 

[pantherpanther]

Sergio,
I offered my take on the Pittman's book because I hoped it would be of value to others who had already discussed it here. My view is If a teacher helps you to learn, be grateful. But what you learn is up to you.

I feel Pittman did not study Ba gua intensively and it shows in his book. I recall vaguely looking at his earlier books, probably the 1989 one you mention. I don't know how Frantzis or others view him or his work. Pittman's speculations on correlations with various esoteric traditions did not seem worthwhile reading.

The sequencing of the palms and their relation to the hexagrams in the book doesn't seem right to me based on my experience. I thought something was not right and left it there. I don't have his book at hand or specific examples. The diagrams were not conformable with the text. In this regard, Olsen in his books seemed to have a balanced sense of the essential teaching, and no such inconsistencies, although I don't really know Olsen's work. Park Bok Nam had a different lineage than Frantzis. There are many teachers of Ba gua. Very impressive videos of some Chinese and so on.

Pittman doesn't stress meditation. My interest in Ba gua has been as a meditation practice. It is practiced with partners and in groups, not simply alone. It has martial arts applications, which I have some experience of. But work with sound, breath and concentration is so essential to the practice. The techniques can be learned mechanically. When energy spirals through the body, perhaps glimpsed as multicolored coils, when doing a palm change, the work is not to be "technical" but to assimilate the energy, very carefully, with intense and focused inner attention while continuing the form.

 

[sergio]

Hi Panther;
As I said before I am not satisfied with Pittman's designation of the hexagrams to the postures.Since you mentioned that too I thought you could then explained ,based on your experience,why that was so.I personally don't have the background mainly because Mr.Pittman does not provide the rationale behind it.Mr. Olsen seems to be more grounded in the tradition as you said but I found his explanations a bit too elaborate and not of practical ,other than it providing an intelectual support to the practice.But the book is certainly worth reading,highly recommended.
I agree with you on the practice of meditation as the cornerstone of Ba Gua practice.I t is essential to develop a quiet mind,something that also reverberates into improving your health as you know.
But to keep things in perspective, we cannot forget that the reason why this art was created was to effectively defend your self in combat.
Sergio

 

[pantherpanther]

I found this interview in which Pittman speaks of his work and the book fit with my casual past impression of him. I haven't seen his DVDs.

http://bluesnakeblog.wordpress.com/...-allen-pittman-author-of-walking-the-i-ching/

 

[sergio]

Thanks P.P!I also checked his website and there are a lot more articles there,too.
Sergio

 

[pantherpanther]

From Chapter 4, Whirling Circles of Ba Gua Zhang by Frank Allen:

Ba gua zhang techniques are sometimes classified by their change patterns. These patterns correspond to the eight trigrams of the Chinese Book of Changes, the Yi Jing.

Heaven techniques tend to be hard and move forcefully upward and/or outward. The most simple of these techniques is Great Roc Spreads Its Wings, in which the ba gua boxer simply walks into the opponent with his arms outstretched, blocking the attack with one arm, while attacking the opponent with a cutting palm strike of the opposite hand.

Earth techniques can be light and fluffy - like stepping past a technique while just barely touching the attacker - or have heavy, downward movements. They also include movements that draw in an opponent. Driving a kick (or a whole opponent) downward is an Earth technique. Drawing an opponent to you or past you are also Earth techniques.

Wind techniques demonstrate the amorphous-to-solid quality of the wind. We can't touch the wind, but it can knock us down. Techniques that spin in past an attack and then attack the opponent from the inside are wind techniques. Some wind techniques flow past the attack to the outside and then roll into the opponent at one of his or her weak angles.

Thunder techniques have the quality of a shock wave. They are yang explosions followed by a series of yin reverberations. All techniques that use the shaking energy known as Fa Li fall under this category. The vibrating, multiple-fist techniques of ba gua are also thunder techniques.

Fire techniques cling to an opponent and coil around them. These techniques coil in past an opponent's defenses before ending in either an explosive strike or a bone-crunching throw. There are multiple ways in which this effect is accomplished.

Water techniques move in wave patterns. They tend to draw opponents in and then pound down on top of them or roll across their midsections. These techniques often drive an opponent into the ground in the same manner that a big wave can pound a surfer who is caught underneath it into the sea bottom.

Mountain techniques use the energy of the compressed stillness in a center that is ready to explode into light rays that shoot off in all directions - in other words, the energy of a volcano. Mountain techniques draw the opponent into a still moment, then explode to send the opponent flying away from the ba gua boxer.

The energy of Lake technique is inconsistent yet it doesn't recreate the energy patterns of any of the previous seven patterns. Lake techniques can go anywhere in random sequences and often are seen put to use in multiple-opponent defense patterns.

 

[sergio]

Hi P.P.;
i am familiar with Allen's book and this application of the trigram's energy to combat,Some other systems-Sun Lu Tang's for instance-use the energy of the animals atributed to the trigrams,i.e.lion to heaven trigram..etc...Once again different aproach to the same end.
Sergio

 

[pantherpanther]

Sergio,
Yes, there are different schools. I am not clear how the linear ba gua that Pittman teaches appears in actual combat . I suppose there are films of competitions showing some using it. What Allen describes I have seen being used in official competitions as the primary technique by some competitors .Without knowing of the hexagrams or their "names", the observer may recognize the different moves as they are applied. Allen's descriptions match the moves. It's scary and mysterious, in a "good way."