What do I need to know about the positive potential that converting to Orthodox Christianity could have for me? 4.1.2.4.5 to 25

[bologna_tendra]

There are many changing lines here, four in total. Some speak of humiliation, a bit of a mixed bag perhaps. Perhaps the two most negative changing lines in hex 4 are 3 and 6 which are the two absent changing lines here. Interested to hear any perspectives on this reading.

 

[dfreed]

Interested to hear any perspectives on this reading.

And I'd be interested to hear what you get from this reading? What do you think it means about you converting?

 

[Trojina]

There are many changing lines here, four in total. Some speak of humiliation, a bit of a mixed bag perhaps. Perhaps the two most negative changing lines in hex 4 are 3 and 6 which are the two absent changing lines here. Interested to hear any perspectives on this reading.

Do you think that casting the I Ching is consonant with converting to Orthodox Christianity ? I mean it seems like you are mixing gods so to speak. Surely if you want to convert to any kind of Christianity you would pray to God about it because if you convert that is where your guidance will come from, not the I Ching.

I think your answer points to your confusion. It's not wrong, at least you aren't making idols in line 3 and line 5 is a very good sign for a seeker. It feels to me though as if the question is somehow shrugged off. You can't really decide to convert to anything on the basis of the I Ching because the I Ching is it's own system and some say consulting the I Ching makes you into a Taoist, whether you know it or not, simply through it's answers over time.


I don't mean you shouldn't ask this question, I've asked similar things myself but I don't think an orthodox Christian would use the I Ching. I may be wrong, there may be exceptions but my general impression from Christians of all kinds is that seeking to know what is going on 'behind the scenes', always trying to jump ahead by using divination such as oracles, is not at all the same as listening for guidance from God.

The 4>25 reading seems to broadly highlight this confusion. And also the 25 a lack of engagement, as if you are somehow disassociated from your question, it's like you don't really know what you are asking. It looks like there's a lot more to actually learn (4) before committing yourself and 25 shows right now possibly you really aren't committed yet to any course as you do not have the understanding or the information to make the choice.

 

[rosada]

I think you would experience a sense of all you did that caused you to feel separate from God (4.4) was recognized as part of the process of growing up and forgiven (4.5) thus allowing you to experience a return to a sense of Innocence (25).

 

[dfreed]

What do I need to know about ... potential (of) converting to Orthodox Christianity .... ? 4.1.2.4.5 to 25.

Overall, I'd say that that this is a mixed bag (or a mixed blessing), just like much of what we encounter in our lives.

Hex. 4 has the trigram (three line figure) Water (Pit) below, and trigram Mountain above. Both have two moving lines.

Water below with it's two moving lines (1,2): you are wanting to seek or go deeply in a spiritual sense, but you are perhaps starting from a place of fear and maybe sadness or grief; so 'following' this path (this conversion) without first addressing your underlying imbalance ...

... could lead to a place of stillness and reflection (balanced Mountain), or ... since Mountain above also has two moving lines (4,5) you may instead become stuck in a place where you only look backwards to the past - either your own past, and/or you become stuck because of the church's (only) 'looking backwards' rules and rituals.

This 'mixed bag' of what your conversion may - or may not - offer is reflected in some of Hex. 4's lines:

4.1: Your conversion may help in 'removing shackles and fetters' (perhaps freeing you from those things which bind you) or, it may 'become a punishment' (perhaps binding you further?)

4.4: Here the church's rules (putting things in orderly bundles), or it's sense of shame (or shaming) are not really good things for you to pursue.

Your answer perhaps lies with Hex. 25: here trigram Thunder below can be about embracing new things; in seeing and acting in new ways; and this leads to trigram Qian above: the creative, focus, sky (heaven).

But this largely depends on you:

* Hex 25: "there will be suffering for one without integrity, and not much reward in having somewhere to go." (Bradford Hatcher) or ....

* Hex. 25: this has the potential to be a great offering, but "if it is not right, then sad is your plight." (Richard Rutt)

And if all this applies to a religious conversion, it makes me wonder if it applies to other aspects of our lives (or your life)? And that applying the Yi's advice here is a good thing, whether you change religions or not.

Best, D

 

[rosada]

4.1 "Removing shackles and fetters" makes me think there comes a time in our lives when we are no longer living under parental guidance/protection/domination where we had no choice but to practice the religions we grew up with in our parents' house. A situation where we have a sense of freedom to chose, will we choose wisely according to what we have been taught or will we foolishly commit too soon?

 

[dfreed]

4.1 "Removing shackles and fetters" makes me think there comes a time in our lives when we are no longer living under parental guidance / protection / domination .... A situation where we have a sense of freedom to chose ....

Yes, I agree. Richard Rutt's translation can be seen as laying out this situation - and the options we have:

4.1 'Pulling Dodder: Favorable for giving punishment, or for removing shackles and fetters.'

It suggests to me - among other things - that we can decide to stay with the religion of our youth / childhood (e.g. our parent's religion or believe systems); or we can change or convert, ... or we can decide not to follow any religion at all - but we are no longer deciding base on our fears, or our sadness or grief (all of which is often carried from generation to generation, or within or across nations and cultures).

Rutt also calls Hex. 4 'Dodder' - an invasive plant with no leaves or roots, that may have been (or can still be) seen as an invasive, harmful species, and/or as a plant with magical or alchemical properties.

So, is 'pulling dodder' favorable or not? And by 'pulling dodder' are we trying to remove it, or are we collecting it - or both?

Best, D

 

[rosada]

So I’m thinking 4.1 is saying something along the lines of “This is an opportunity to exercise freedom of choice.”

Then I think 4.2 is saying perhaps not enough is known yet about this church, although this line seems to be saying so far, so good:
4.2
Embracing the ignoramus, good fortune. {Enjoy the state of not knowing, don't be in a hurry to commit}
Involving the woman, good fortune. {Let yourself be supported by your envirnment like a babe inside the woman's womb.}
The son governs the dwelling. {You have no past experiences to guide you, immature impulses are guiding you.}

Then there is no 4.3 and also no 4.6 which I think is interesting because I can see 4.3 as indicating temptation and original sin and then 4.6 as representing not so much punishment but a removal of temptation. Like Adam and Eve not so much thrown out of the garden but simply moved to a place where there was no forbidden fruit. So then in reference to the question here, perhaps one of the benefits of joining this church would be a sense of protection from original sin and temptation?

 

[bologna_tendra]

Thank you for your comments and input on this. It is not a decision I would make quickly but am learning with a view to potentially making this change in the future. The Philokalia perhaps seem a good place to start. As a Catholic I would not in a sense view this as a conversion as such, rather a reintegration into more what Catholicism was at some point and has ceased to be. I think the interpretations you gave chime with where it is with this at the moment.

 

[bologna_tendra]

After some months of reflecting on this and studying around this issue I have come to the conclusions as Seraphim Rose advocated nearly 50 years ago in "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future", and from this point on will cease with this practice of I Ching, as I delve further into the religious tradition of my own culture.

 

[diamant]

@bologna_tendra I was born and grew up in Greece, which is an Orthodox Christian country. In theory, Orthodox Christianity forbids divination in general. In practice, divination of a huge variety of types is being practised and is very, very popular. I don't know what Catholicism says on the matter, but I'm guessing it also forbids divination.

 

[rosada]

Thanks for letting us know, bologna. Personally I have gotten a deeper understanding of Christianity from asking the I Ching to comment on various verses, and also from intentionally looking to see what the I Ching has to say as compared to what the Bible has to say on the same subjects. But right now as you are looking to delve deep into this new experience it would make sense you would want to give it your total focus.
Blessings to you on your path!

 

[strawberry_blood]

Hi @bologna_tendra - I was born into an Orthodox background (Russian Orthodox), and love a Catholic guy, so agree that within neither of the traditions should you practice divination, it causes a clash of the egregors, like @Trojina rightly said, so will not benefit you.

Personally, never found the Orthodox religion satisfying enough, as its followers are not even encouraged to study the Book they believe in. So in my quest for knowledge I was a Protestant for some years, studied the Bible and really got deep into it, giving up all forms of divination for some 6 years or so. The result of my research uncovered some irreconcilable points for me, so I circled all the way back to my mother's spiritual heritage (the old Norse tradition), and am back in my own element, researching, learning, practicing and feeling truly connected. It was a long and winding road.

I hope your search for the spiritual truth is rich and rewarding, whatever direction you choose
Bright blessings on your path!

 

[Liselle]

Comment way after the fact - the reading strikes me as something like "not knowing (but trying to learn), in a context of disentanglement / no preconceptions." In other words, part of the positive potential might be to see familiar things from a different point of view. What could you learn from that?

I think it's a really good point that hexagram 4's more negative lines aren't part of this - you wouldn't lose your own sense of discernment (line 3), and also you won't be struck down (or needn't worry about being) by any "side" of Christianity, by your own self, etc. There need be no enmity.