Hexagram 30 and renunciation

[bradford_h]

Hi all-
I think I want to amend my comment about humor in the light of Candid's nod to the middle path (a central teaching of Lord Buddha). Maybe I should have said: I see wisdom characterized by a robust mental health that is capable of laughing at itself and at belief in general. This would include other big signs to look out for, like appreciation and gratitude, candor, conscience, etc. In any event, I think real wisdom translates directly into the way we live our lives, without skipping steps, and without hypocrisy. Given this, I don't see much wisdom at all in the western traditions. I see the authors of the Bible as not enjoying anything close to good menta health, and suffering from both delusions of grandeur and delusions of persecution, both classic symptoms of paranoia.
My favorite approach is laid down across several sections of the original Yi - that happiness is something to be thoroughly enjoyed when its here, but not sought in its absense. Happiness is not the goal or pursuit, but tends to be, with no guarantee, a sign that we're on the right track.

 

[cheiron]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Tashiiij

<FONT SIZE="+2">Wonderful</FONT>

--Kevin</FONT>

 

[cheiron]

Brad

"Happiness is not the goal or pursuit, but tends to be, with no guarantee, a sign that we're on the right track."

Absolutely... I have met the Rimpoche Akong and have seen the Dalai Lama many times on TV... Those guy's never seem to stop chuckling!

--K

 

[cal val]

This is the kind of thread I love in this forum.

Brad...

You said, "I see wisdom characterized by a robust mental health that is capable of laughing at itself and at belief in general." Yes! This is why it's impossible for me to adopt any defined set of beliefs (dogma)... Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, etc., yet be open to and listen to the wisdom of people such as Buddha, Jesus of Nazareth, Mohammad, Einstein, you, Dobro, Tashi, Cherion, Candid and so many others.

You said, "In any event, I think real wisdom translates directly into the way we live our lives, without skipping steps, and without hypocrisy." I think wisdom lies in accepting that none of us is without hypocrisy. I try not to call anyone else a hypocrite because I know it's like the pot calling the kettle black, it's like a person living in a glass house throwing stones. I try not to, but I've done it anyway because...none of us, myself included, is without hyprocrisy.

Your statement about the authors of the Bible and the consequent wisdom therein, IMO, is tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I agree that so much of "spreading the word" by the original authors of the New Testament was motivated by guilt and delusions and that the re-writing of the Torah to create the Old Testament by those authors and subsequent translators was all very self-serving. There's much in it that I just can't accept, but there's much wisdom in it as well. I just pick and choose what works for me.

Love,

Val

 

[bradford_h]

Hiya Val-
I'm a die hard eclectic too, and read the Bible cover to cover again two years ago, some of it in Hebrew. Not tossing that baby completely. Came away with a few gems, as well as the scary stuff. Don't know why God would be such a bad writer though.
b

 

[yellowblue]

Candid, Wilhelm Baynes uses the word express. it seems to work here, but so does manifest. holding to or clinging to the resource that will allow manifestation...dealing with what is not tangible. 30 is not a happy hexagram in my opinion, but can show how to use the available or appropriate resources and continue. just thoughts.

Kevin, I'm really looking forward to seeing your homework!!

Tash, best to you : ) nice to hear about that proposal and hear you laugh.

Deb

 

[candid]

Deb, excellent thoughts too! Like you, I've encountered 30 when in less than a satisfied mood. The affect is usually - calm down, slow down, breathe, hold to that which secures you.

Brad, its how you live moment to moment, not what you profess. I agree completely. I believe I've witnessed 'enlightened' ones in most every faith, or non-faith, and 'unenlightened' as well.

The N.T. writers did the best they could, as far as memory served them, and as we know, embellishment can be irresistible over the following decade AD. Otherwise the Gospels would all agree. They must have been talking about the car when it was written: and they were all in one accord. It was Saul who must have had a great publisher though, since his writing constituted nearly 3/4 of the New Testament.

C

 

[cheiron]

Well I have had a wonderful time exploring this? Am posting it here in case anyone finds it useful.

Thanks for all of the ideas folks.

There is lots of stuff here that needs more work? so looking forward to comments.

Deb? I agree with you? seems to me that Li is not presented in the Yijing as a thing to last.

Hex. 30 as a pair

This Hexagram follows on from Hx.29 ? The Gorge or pit. Through coping with the difficulties there one may move to the other of the pair Hx.30.

It is noteworthy that Li is a transformation of K?an ? that is every line becomes its opposite rather than being the same hexagram ?turned upside down? like most pairs. It is thus representative of a dramatic transformative change ? a metamorphosis.

The inner hexagram of Hx. 29 K?an ? is Hx. 27 Nourishing ? Particularly a mouth and a sage ? nourishing wise words.

This for me gives a dramatic image of that learning and wisdom that can be found when we are most beset by problems and cares which leads us to the condition and the time of Li:

Hx.30 - Li ? Light; Warmth; Awareness; See Clearly; Diverging; Arising; distinguishing; persistence; fulfilment; completion.

Judgement:
Lifting oneself up and separating oneself (from the world?) and radiating ones truth leads to fulfilment.

Doing mundane essential tasks which sustain one - like caring for cows.

Comment: This is a time of clarity and insight. It is like having a gentle clear flame inside. In order to preserve it is necessary to let it become a focus, an inner light. This is not the time to rush around doing many things, but a time for simple sustaining actions. The truth of the moment is in the being, not in doing.

Commentary on the Judgement (Tuan Zhuan):
Radiating means that one has been ?conditioned? by clarity.

Everything is correct at this time.

The sun and moon are in the heavens and the grass is rooted in the soil.

Here we have Li doubled. Therefore ones inner being here is conditioned by truth and insight.

The transformation to this state is perfect and complete.

Everything is in balance. Heaven and Earth are joined in this time. Therefore the one here is fulfilled / completed.

That?s why one here should do no more than to ?take care of the cows?.

The Inner Hexagram here is Hx 28 Excessive Greatness. This represents the inner possibility of this time.

The lower trigram and the upper trigram point to ones inner world and ones reference to the outer world. Li above Li. Clarity within and clear perception of the outer world.

Image (Da Xiang)
The brightness rises twice
Thus this great realised one is continuously connected and radiates his illumination all around him.

The Lines
1st Line:
This line is generally held to be the time before the hexagram?s time.

a)Treading the path within the confusion.
Be attentive to oneself.
Thus mistakes and harm are avoided.

b)Walking the path in confusion.
Correcting (oneself) in order to exclude mistakes.

Comment: This line, when transforming, leads to Hx 56 The Wanderer. Thus The Wanderer might be seen as both an expansion and an extension of this time. (ed. note: Now I know where the Wanderer got the habit of setting fire to things)

Line 2:
a) Yellow radiance, an auspicious beginning.

b) Yellow radiance is most promising
Acquiring the middle way / truth.

Comment:
?Yellow? This is the emporial colour it is associated with the productive time of yin and spring.

When this line is changing it gives Hx.14 Ta Yu ? Great Possessing. Abundance.

Line 3:
Note: This is the last line of the inner world movement. Thus it is the end of that movement before the time of the outer world relations begins.

a) The sun going down with its radiance declining.

Instead of drumbeating on pots and singing (you) sigh, moan and groan like an sick old person.
This is very bad luck

Comment: For me this is the moment after the inspirational flash; or the clear insight has struck and then the time and thoughts internalised and the frisson diminishes. I think not only are the authors chastising such a moaner here but they are also poking fun at them in the last line.
b) The sun going down with its radiance.

Why should it be prolonged?

Comment: A different perspective which I think picks up on what Candid was saying above with his explanation of pain and pleasure.

For me there is no loss here? the radiance grew within us and brought about a metamorphosis? as it dims we still have those insights and changes.

Comment: This line, when changing leads to Hx21 ? Biting through.

The development of this time does not end here but progresses into the outer world sphere of the outer trigram.


Line 4:
a) It comes Abruptly
So What?
A destructive fire such as this is mortal / perishable
It will be thrown aside.

b) Breakthrough
He / She / They arrive(s) in such a manner that they are not tolerated and are not accepted

Comment: Here the observer seems to be outside the ?Flame? which is assailing them.

This line, when changing, gives Hx. Adornment ? Li below Ken ? Fire at the foot of the mountain. Something to ponder here I think.

Line 5:
a) Gushing tears
pitiful lament
This is auspicious(!)

b) Good fortune
A radiant king indeed

Comment: When this line changes it gives Hx 13 Tong Ren ? Fellowship with others. Is this why the line is auspicious?

I almost suspected jovial sarcasm in b) above

The Fan Yao (the line that changes in this place to give Hx.30 is 13.5 ? Armies meeting ? First tears then laughter. Armies entertain each other.

Wilhelm explains that this is a dark line in a bright place so it is humble and not arrogant situated above Tui (mouth) it gives lament.

Karcher points to this one having lost a connection with others (funeral?) and that by showing sadness others come in support.

Line 6:
a) The Sovereign takes advantage of issues / emergencies to go forth.
Where credit is due there will be rewards.
The leaders will have their heads severed.
They never were in his class.
There is no mistake in this.

b) The Sovereign takes advantage of emergencies to set forth and rectify the jurisdiction.

Comment:
This is a bright line in a bright place riding atop of the double trigram of fire.

It is the fiery ruler.
The fiery sword in the outer world.

Sixth lines are often lines where the situation has led to excess or are seen as being after the time of the hexagram here it is seen as the culmination of this energy in its greatest outer world manifestation.

When the sixth line changes it gives Hx. 55 Feng ? Abundance.

The sixth line which changes to give 30.6 is 55.6 Feng. Abounding /Receiving the Mandate. ?Screening oneself off for three years.?

As per Steve Marshall?s work ? Feng was the river ford where King Wen made his temporary capital before dying. His did not comply to custom of staying isolated in the mourning hut for three years. Instead he set forth to overthrow the Shang Emperor at Li.

A very nice tie in? when the King in 55.6 does not screen himself off he is able to sally forth and make use of Li.


There is a very clear split between the first three lines dealing with the personal and one sort of ?Radiance? and the last three lines dealing with a very different world of state.

The Guaci or judgement seems, to me, to relate more to the situation in the first three lines.

As the yijing says? there are two fires here!

With Thanks to:
Bradford Hatcher http://www.hermetica.info/
Deb ? Yellowblue at Clarity
Wu Jing Nuan ?Yi Jing? (1991)
Stephen Karcher I Ching 2002
Stephen Karcher ?I Cing? 2003

--Kevin

 

[cheiron]

Candid

You said, "I've encountered 30 when in less than a satisfied mood. The affect is usually - calm down, slow down, breathe, hold to that which secures you."

Yes me too.

In addition... I sometimes think the Yijing speaks in a way that it knows I can hear - That is if i misunderstand a Hx. or think there is something there which isn't it will use it anyway...

Hmm... thinks... you chuckle a lot too

--Kevin

 

[cal val]

Kevin...

You asked for input... among other things, I see a progression of understanding relative to age in the lines... a Gail Sheehy "Passages" kind of thing.

Please see my post in the 30.1.3 to 35 thread for further clarification (pun intended... *grin*) (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/1296.html?1070706649

Love,

Val

 

[cheiron]

Hi

Hx 29/30 form the last pair in the Upper Cannon of the Yijing. This is the Cannon of Heavenly affairs. As Alfred Huang says ? This Cannon ends with ?the ceaseless cycle of darkness and brightness.?

I notice the similarity with the end of the Lower Cannon of Earthly Affairs in 63/64.

Another dangerous watery place and another great brighness.

--Kevin

 

[cal val]

Kevin...

Yes... I like Eyler Robert Coates interpretation of this hexagram because he illustrates that connection between heaven and man very well. He calls 30 Dependence on the Powers of the Universe

"The Decision

A SAGE who gives the light of understanding to other men must have within himself a self-renewing source of wisdom. This wisdom is not derived from the sage?s own invention or creation, but from a harmonious relationship he has with the Universe. He contemplates the life of man in the Universe and the movement of Fate acting through the power of Truth and Right, and this gives him insight into the destinies of men. But these are not his own thoughts. At best, he is able to perceive The Way and to describe what he sees. Thus, by clinging to and being dependent on this relationship to the Universe, he is able to spread the light of Truth and reveal the Will of Heaven to others. No man on this earth is totally free. Every man is subject to universal laws of rightness which, if he goes against them, will cause him to suffer the consequences dictated by other universal laws. Real success -- not mere transitory fame or monetary wealth -- will come to the man when he recognizes his dependence upon these universal forces and determines to act in accordance with them. It is through this sort of compliant dependence that he acquires a deep insight into his own life and the lives of other men, and thus is able to find a proper and rewarding place in the world, all of which is based on an attitude of submission to the powers that work in him and through him, and not on his own arrogant sense of power emanating from himself. He makes no claims for himself, and this gives him great power coupled with quiet confidence and tranquility.

The Maxim

A great man is a function of Nature in the world. He acts not from personal force, but as a source of the universal forces acting through man. In this way, he is able to instruct and enlighten other men, and spread this brightness far and wide. But he does this as an instrument, not as provocateur in his own right. His greatness derives from the fact that he is able to respond to and express the power of universal truths, and that he is able to let these great powers work through him and shine through him. This enables him to affect other men deeply and profoundly."

Love,

Val

 

[cheiron]

Hi Val

Thanks

My email is playing up and I did not see your posts.

Need to sleep now.

will read your posts properly tomorrow.

--Kevin

 

[tashij]

hello everyone.

so to the orignial question, about this character of this hexagram meaning renunciation, has this been sort of decided againszt? for the mass popular understanding? cause to me it makes sense.

ive been thinking about this 30. it was an issue when i first started reading this thread, cause i had just gotten it in relation to really missing my ex. when i got it, my thinking went along lines like: "ok, attachment, burning, bright,care for the docile cow, ok, lots of different attributes, but where/how do they fit? what does it MEAN?" then i read LiSe's website and she says 'you have to catch the bird of brightness'. i think, "well, my ex really was marvelously smart, does this mean he is the bird of brightness?" (ok now you guys can see how simple i am, but i do think like this) does it speak to the recipricol nature of the relationship? 2 of cups type of thing? i was like, what does 30 mean in relation to really missing someone you love ???? 30 which describes all these combined attributes? what to make of them all, you know?

then i come here and read arien's first post, and i think "ohhh...could it be?????" this is something active, and makes sense. the rest is abstract . it makes sense one would catch the bird through a period of renunciation.

so the whole meaning would be like, attach, bright, cling, crave, abandon (renounce). (happy ending)

sorry for asking for more clarification (yeah yeah) after all the incredlibe stuff posted, thanks deb and kevin, but i still dont get the concrete menaing.

i see the conditined arising, but i feel there's something else too.

 

[dobro p]

"ive been thinking about this 30. it was an issue when i first started reading this thread, cause i had just gotten it in relation to really missing my ex."

Think of the radiance that arises out of fire. It's not the calm clarity of Hex 20, or the inner vision of 52, it's a radiant energy, and it's good news - it's advantageous to carry out what you think is right, and you grow and attain. Cultivating docility puts you in tune with life.

Okay, apply it to missing your ex. There's the intensity obviously, but the Yi says it's radiant. I think it's telling you to convert the intensity of missing him into the intensity of radiant consciousness, if that makes any sense. Next, what do you think is the right thing to do in this situation? Do it - the situation offers an opportunity for real growth here - some sort of character development, I'd guess. The docility is letting yourself be led through this experience patiently; it'll be nice when you reach the stage when you can lead and the feelings will docilely follow.

Oh, and if you're wondering about the clinging and conditioned arising that people have been talking about, just think about what your feelings are feeding on - it's that attachment to him, right? - just like fire feeds on the wood it's attached to. It'll burn itself out, though. In the meantime, any chance of benefitting from the light and heat it's generating?

 

[tashij]

well- thank you dobro .
'any chance of benefitting from the light and heat it's generating"
i dunno. on the astral level he completely ignores me. i've learned to adapt. and want nothing. that's the best ive come up with in this sitation. maybe i just need to clear my head out some more and try and forget it all. as val said in another post, turn out the light and go to bed.

thanks all.

 

[candid]

Dobro - that's a fantastic explanation. Makes so much sense, as I apply it to my previous encounters with Li. Thanks very much.

 

[heylise]

Catching the bird of brightness means getting understanding. The most common use of Li in Chinese is 'separate', usually very literally, by a fence or so, but understanding something also means a certain separation from it. Like taking a step back in order to see it clear, and in its totality.
"Discerning' more or less combines those meanings. DIS-cerning.
I think in Tashi's answer it might mean that she can see her ex-lover more in his totality by being separated from him. Other aspects become visible, which were not so clear when he was close by.

Consciousness needs separation from objects. Primitive people have something anthropologists call 'participation mystique', they are very much one with their surroundings. But for judging, evaluating, 'using' things, and finally science, one has to take distance.

I agree with Dobro: "convert the intensity of missing him into the intensity of radiant consciousness, if that makes any sense. Next, what do you think is the right thing to do in this situation? Do it - the situation offers an opportunity for real growth here - some sort of character development, I'd guess".

Of course I would put it in different words, but it comes down to something similar. Use the clear view make yourself aware of things you might have missed, overlooked, not appreciated, or seen too positive or negative. Turn the experience into a value or insight in your own life. Use its energy to grow or move forward - same Dobro says.

LiSe

 

[heylise]

Some more thinking made things a lot less complicated . .
Maybe 30 simply means "separate yourself from this", so it is very much this renunciation.
LiSe

 

[tashij]

Thank you Lise, Thank you Dobro for taking the time to explain. I hope it is helpful to someone else as well.

Lise, i can relate to the mystical primative. (All the planets in my natal chart are bundled right on top of each other, which you can imagine gives difficulty in objectivity. At least planets in this position give one an ability to tune into the suble aspects of a given subject).

I guess one thing i didnt understand, if the meaning is to separate, why not a 23? That is why it was so difficult to understand the message of 30. I couldnt understand if the Yi was actually encouraging me to keep regretting and missing (since the Yi liked him very very much, any cast I ever did for him was like, oh my gosh, this is the prince for you). He wasnt an ordinary lover, as he was chosen for me by my teacher. I see her wisdom in chosing him for me more and more each day. By getting involved with the young lama, (something I never bargained on as when i got invovled with him it was to save his life because he was dying), something took life a life of it's own. Perhaps it is just better that I stay alone, maybe this is what I actually want, on a deeper level.

Anyway, I hope if anyone who reads this and happens to have the good fortune to encounter bonafide Buddhist tantra -- I hope they have better luck than i. i really really do. it is a wonderful path, and if your karma is right, a beautiful happy way to realization. i know my teacher was trying to give me everything. Within means. I hope by sharing some misfortune I can help prevent it for someone else.

Thank you Lise for spending energy on this, reinforcing Dobro's wise message a little more.

With great appreciation.

 

[heylise]

Tashi,

Never ever do blindly what anyone tells you to do. Not the Yi, not a teacher, not the president, nobody. Listen to it, then consult your own intuition and ability to judge the situation, and only if you agree with it yourself, then you can do it.

The Yi is like a good parent, not telling a child what to become, but developing its abilities to become the best he might be. A good teacher does the same. They both want you to make your own choices, they only help to make the right ones, your own right ones. They show you the way, but do not make the choices for you.

When the Yi tells you to 'separate', then consult your intuition what that might mean. Separate from your lover? Or from your wishes? Or from fears, insecurity, feelings of inferiority or inability or dependency. Only your own intuition can give the answer.

30 is the opposite of 29, the opposite of fears, darkness, vagueness, the formlessness of water. 30 tells you to become aware, clear, to put everything in broad daylight.
23 is very different, it is the opposite of 43, cracking your whip and speaking out. 23 is getting rid of everything superfluous, decaying. To go back to the essence.

LiSe

 

[ninepatch]

Dearest Lise-

I have not been gone, simply quiet in my corner learning so much more than I can say. I had to step in here to thank you for your beautiful way of reminding me to look clearly at the Yi, free of any outside influence, and to trust the sacred within myself, to trust my intuition, to believe the truth of my own skin.

You speak so clearly, and I always learn from you. You are such a gift to me. Thank you.

Beth

 

[cheiron]

Sorry to have gone quiet.

This is a wonderfull thread.

I am overwhelmed at work at the moment.

Though I think there is little I can add to what has been said... I suffer from some opinions

I will try to post later in the week.

Love you all

--Kevin

 

[cal val]

I know a woman... a very bright, gentle, kind, alert, active, talented woman... who has a teacher she has a very close bond with and whom she trusts absolutely and seeks out for advice. She's told me some things about the teacher, how they came to meet, incredible gifts the teacher has, how their relationship has grown, etc. She depends on the teacher a great deal.

I personally don't know that I would depend on another mortal being the way she depends on her teacher... but then I'm not her, I haven't had her experiences and I don't know her teacher... so I have absolutely nothing to say to her about it. I'm in absolutely NO position to say anything. Besides why would I want to? It all seems to work for her. She seems to be quite comfortable with the arrangement. She seems to be prospering from it. She's a wonderful person... someone very easy to love and someone I've grown to love immensely.

And I watch people who know much less than I do about her or her teacher or their relationship pass judgment and offer unsolicited advice to her... one woman in particular who has very recently done so passes judgment and offers unsolicited advice to many... as if it's a GOOD thing! *shakes head*

And then I watch other people praise her for her judgments and unsolicited advice... as if they're a good thing!

My question is... why? WHY? Can anyone tell me why judgments and unsolicited advice are a GOOD thing? I was always taught they're less than desirable.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

I want to amend my question above... to be more specific.

Why would offering unsolicited advice to someone you know very little about regarding a relationship you know even less about be a good thing?

Love,

Val

 

[tashij]

hi val,

i appreciate what you are saying, you know how much i care about you. and now everyone else does too. LOL.

i also appreciate what lise is saying. i believe she is speaking from her own experience, she has lived how many years with a man who cannot be easy to live with or figure out or trust, even though i imagine she trusts him ultimately more than anyone. i imagine he has ways which drove her to no end many many times. i think she does understand the situation with a teacher, and i think she is speaking to me, in the blood, so to speak, and i am listening. i think lise understands i'm having a really hard time, and is being a bit firm, but i understand she is trying to reach me, to get me to hear my own wisdom, cause she knows i have it. i appreciate her effort, i believe she cares.

its such a complicasted situation i was always hesitant to bring the issues here to clarity, but i start to trust you all, and want to be honest. even though how many eyes read these passages, to think what they will of me and my these seemingly co-dependent problems. it is a facade of co-dependency, on the interior is a very sublime unfolding of wisdom.

i cannot in these pages expalin what a vajrayana master is like. i cannot explain what a completely unusual being this is, or the relationship of the vajrayana teacher to student, or the vows or sacred trust that is placed in the relationship, that are, if broken, very sad and painful to bear. i cannot explain what a completely overwhelming experince it is. it is not an easy relationship, i rebel against it almost every day. making my own decisions has gotten me into very difficult scrapes. grist for the mill. if i can ever settle down, i will be able to be very very happy. boyfriend or lama boyfriend or no. LOL.

anyway. i will just keep it here, for now. so many people on this board have abilities and superpowers it always is so fun and great.. it's almost pointless to argue with anyone on this board cause almost everyone who contributes is nearly enlightened, LOL.

also, kevin said he suffers some opinions for later in the week, wow, coming attactions, that's exciting.

 

[cal val]

Tashi...

That seemingly co-dependent thing you spoke about... that's exactly why I said "I don't know that I could be..." rather than "I can't" or "I won't." There's something different about your dependence on her... that I know I can't understand unless I experience it... because I also detect a very definite independence, resourcefulness and strength in you. And the sublime unfolding of wisdom is very apparent to me. I've come to understand the bond you have with your teacher... the relationship you have with her is something I can't understand in my typical Western way of thinking... something I can't understand unless I experience it myself. That's why I have nothing to say. I'm ignorant about it. And the more wisdom you share with me, the more I know I'm ignorant. However, because of this gradual realization of the complexity of your relationship with her, I have entertained a curiosity about her and a desire lately to meet her and experience her myself.

Love,

Val

 

[yellowblue]

Dobro,

You said "Oh, and if you're wondering about the clinging and conditioned arising that people have been talking about, just think about what your feelings are feeding on - it's that attachment to him, right? - just like fire feeds on the wood it's attached to. It'll burn itself out, though...."

almost opposite of what i said, but hit home with me... this is what i was looking for... Great insight.

LiSe,
As always, when you do comment what clarification... I wish you'd comment more often. It always clarifies for me... big, big sigh as I understand : )

Both LiSe and Dobro... seems opposite of what i was aiming at. It's when we facilitate the fire, feed it that's when we sense discomfort. Well, that does seem to fit.

It is the longing here then that brings the sadness. So line 5, the ruler, is sorrowing and humilty-- is acquiesence to the time--- letting it take it's course in sorrow. ??? There is not much we can do but comply???

Deb

 

[heylise]

Dear Val,

Tashi asked, and that is why several people answered, trying to clarify, explain, give advice.

From Tashi's response I got the impression, that she saw this hexagram through our explanations as a roadsign, "go this way", so I jumped up, because then advice becomes dangerous. No advice should ever become an order. Certainly not our groping efforts to find the meaning (or many meanings) of a hexagram.

I was quite certain, that Tashi's teacher complied with her intuition. When it does not, it starts to sound like having a boss, and Tashi never said anything which sounded like that. When your intuition agrees with the teacher's being, you do what the teacher says, but you don't do it blindly.

I hesitated if I should put the teacher in that sentence, but without it, what else could I compare the Yi with? Not with the president, that one was just to make clear that high authority is also no reason to follow blindly. The Yi is one of the good teachers in the world.

I appreciate your post. It is always good to clarify things. And Deb, thanks for your nice remarks!

LiSe

 

[tashij]

i believe i now understand this hexagram in relation to my question to the Yi. the syncronisity of finding arien's original question right after throwng it only intensified probing it publicly where normally i would have sat it out and figgured it out eventually.

in light of my turning to the Yi for counsel about the intense feelings of missing my ex, i believe 30 means that the sorrow i am feeling is feeding my energy. perhaps even is my enregy source right now.

and seeing as i am in a period of desolation and mourning with my mother and family, there is no shame in that,but i will now be thinking about sources of energy.

tashi delek everyone.