Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
For disaster response and management. But what's that to do with cultural artefacts? And why so little about UNWDP, anywhere on the net - nothing about its aims, its mission, its work. What does it do? Why the big secret?
For disaster response and management. But what's that to do with cultural artefacts? And why so little about UNWDP, anywhere on the net - nothing about its aims, its mission, its work. What does it do? Why the big secret?
Well, hey......wait a minute! Suppose it works! So all we have to do with all the lovelorn posters in the Friends' Area is get them to buy one, then stamp their sweetheart's bum with the thing, and hey presto! Problem all gone!
We could cut down on the threads in the Friends' Area by 50%.
Hey, lovelorn! Tokimoki yer sweetie's buttcheeks today! Save us all a world of grief.
Tokimoki left!
Tokimoki right!
Tokimoki on yer bum
Make you mine tonight!
Well, hey......wait a minute! Suppose it works! So all we have to do with all the lovelorn posters in the Friends' Area is get them to buy one, then stamp their sweetheart's bum with the thing, and hey presto! Problem all gone!
We could cut down on the threads in the Friends' Area by 50%.
Hey, lovelorn! Tokimoki yer sweetie's buttcheeks today! Save us all a world of grief.
Tokimoki left!
Tokimoki right!
Tokimoki on yer bum
Make you mine tonight!
thats so good i just had to repeat it
When you ridicule the Toki-moai, in your ignorance you seem to forget that are symbols of ritual in traditional Taoism, Huna, Shinto, many aboriginal systems, Bon and Tibetan Buddhism under other names or as mandala or tao talismans, and by its own name of toki-moai in RyuKyuan traditional religious belief. To ridicule these symbols AFTER been directed to sources of information about the true historical existence of toki-moai artifacts, discards ignorance and shows total disrespect for the belief and ritual of others.
What it is, depends of the forum, where it is spammedSo this toki-moai thing is, what, a religion?
What it is, depends of the forum, where it is spammed
So this toki-moai thing is, what, a religion? From the links you've provided, it seems more like a modern mind-virus cloaking itself in the dress of ancient Eastern beliefs in order to give it more credibility. ANY symbol has power, in and of itself. That includes Taoist, Buddhist, Christian... symbols. Furthermore, language itself is symbolic of the material things and abstract concepts it refers to. If you can truly grok this, then you will see that the people writing on this forum are simply playing with symbols, very much like stamping people's bums with toki-moai symbols. The difficulty comes in when one person's symbol is taken to be above and beyond another's. And this looks to be how you first presented yourself in this forum.
This guy is a spammer/scammer and pretty tasteless with it... Everything he said was geared towards entrainment for buying his pseudo-spiritual product. I feel like I've been slimed.
Well, lets see if I can make myself crystal clear:
Your present missive is one big projection listing the very criticisms that you yourself are exhibiting, yet your self-importance blinds you to it.
You are angry because your ego is bruised, nothing more.
Topal
...if you know the answers, this is a real serious forum and you know what you are doing, if you don't know the answers or you need to click many links to find it, you are just playing around with something you don't understand and you have the chance to change mind and start to really study what is a symbol, called toki-moai or stupa or totem or talisman or trigram, what it represents and how is it related with the I Ching.......
.....Of course you can choose to not answer and even answer with one more attitude, all intelligent readers will understand why you do that ...
As someone said, symbols have power. The cross has held half the world in thrall for two thousand years, and the nazi version of the swastika is banned in Germany for a very good reason. What is special about toki-moia over and above other symbols has not yet been elucidated or explained.
The power of symbol - as rosada wrote - lies in its ability to ground us. It also nurtures our imagination and emotions. In what way does the toki-moai achieve that?
And what, I wonder, is its relation to the Yi? That series of defiant questions in no way answers that. How about a bit of calm scholarly exposition, for a change, since Laureet claims to be a scholar?
...if you know the answers, this is a real serious forum and you know what you are doing, if you don't know the answers or you need to click many links to find it, you are just playing around with something you don't understand and you have the chance to change mind and start to really study what is a symbol, called toki-moai or stupa or totem or talisman or trigram, what it represents and how is it related with the I Ching.......
.....Of course you can choose to not answer and even answer with one more attitude, all intelligent readers will understand why you do that ...
laureet, I am willing to believe this works, if the most destitute person in this community is given a donation of a toki moai, and uses it, and sees improvement in their life, then I am happy.
Laureet, I did ask you before not to take the high road with us. You are on the defensive and for a good reason, but, that doesn't warrant arrogance cloaked in veiled scholarship. This forum, with the exception of a few "occasional scholars" and a couple of them with tenure, has never claimed to be a "school" of the Yi.
Now, your first couple of messages set the tone for how you are perceived in the forum, with the repetition of the same message, links to a site that "sells" something, etc. I'd still give the Toki-Moai (the concept and how is sold and advertised) the benefit of the doubt. My mind pulls more towards Daoism (and a mix of other beliefs) than I care to admit on a good day and I do believe in talismans. So, what you are sharing isn't foreign to me. I'd like, though, to ask you a question and I hope you'll give me an honest answer: are you, in any way, involved in the selling of these artifacts or are you, simply, a satisfied customer?
L
You haven't answered a single question, Laureet.
======
I didn't give the answers you expected perhaps...or the ones you recognized as such...
=====
You have directed us to suspect or irrelevant websites, including one (the UNWDP) which is not a website, but a security-protected portal that tells us nothing at all about this organisation.
======
You didn't want to recognize relevance
It is not up to me to help your research even if I tried to, now you are on your own
=====
All we know about it is that it is involved in disaster management, which is a far cry from symbolism, you'll agree.
=====
I don't know if you mix up things puposedly or you are just like that ...
=========================
None of the sites actually explain the toki-moai, or its relationship to the Yi, or to Gnosticism for that matter.
=======
What Gnosis has to do? I don't remember to have mention it...
==========
You continue to insult people, and fling all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about (the latest being that the Yi is erroneously called the book of changes). Is that the way of the wise scholar? I think not.
======
I said the YI is to call wrong the Book of Changes, the late is correct, the first is wrong...
===========
My understanding of a mandala is that its spiritual strength comes from the making of it. That is, in order to benefit fully, you must make a mandala.
=================
or someone makes it for you..... each case has its properties and different results
======================
Simply looking at it is not enough If a toki-moai is a form in nature that is our own personal power symbol, then surely we benefit only if we discover it for ourselves, and not have it spooned out to us to then stamp willy-nilly about the place?
===================
the iorms are in Nature already, you don't create nothing.... Who knows to look for these better than you will find those for you, if you know where to look and how, you will find yourself.... Old system but works today...
The act of stamping or tattoing or writing or painting or tossing has a meaning and an effect if correctly done, you should be surprised if you study the facts....
=====================
And what makes the toki-moai more powerful, for instance, than the reiki symbols, which are not personal symbols, of course, but are transmitted privately, and for the benefit of all?
==============
I cannot reply without a lesson on what Reiki is really and you will not accept what is not your opinion, so why to bother ? you are on your own
Straight answer to your question: NO ! I am not involved in selling or mind who buys. If I am satisfied? now I keep that answer to myself or who I trust can benefit of its answer...
How I came to trust it? I have other way to do things, I don't believe I know all under the earth and dismiss what seems to be unlikely, I do believe in finding the forgotten book in the antique shop, the one nobody buys, so I bought the thing and THEN I submitted to who knows about and I trust his opinion on these matters, for seeing if it was the real thing or I was getting a refund which is easy in PayPal, then after verifying its possible veracity, I tried it and found if it worked for me. I believe in discovering and trial, not in useless debate with empty hands and nothing to show for basis, I take the risk to try so I can discover, ...but hey...that is my way to do things...:bows:
Thank you so much! Now, can we put the Toki-Moai to rest for a while? I invite you to share some of your knowledge of the Yi in the forum so everybody benefits. If claims about the Yi are made that seem "novel" to the rest of us, I for one expect bibliographical references that I can relate to and further study. I said this because there are those that claim "secret lineage knowledge or verbal transmissions thereof" and I'm a firm believer that all about the Yi is to be found in print and archaeological findings. All else are apocryphal conclusions of small esoteric schools.
L
I DO mind about ignorance, as the scholar I am and even if ignorance in the non educated doesn't bother me more far than to try to help in programmmes to literate the illiterate, ignorance portrayed as knowledge, which is the case of most who have sent many postings in this thread, is only the proof of extreme egocentrism and incapacity to learn and DOES bother me, in fact it angers me in extreme, mostly when ignorance is portrayed as smartness. Furthermore, adepts (or so self called) of the Book of Changes who don't know to change and adapt when caught in an error by ignorance, are really an absurd.:
Yes, I will leave this forum, but I will most certainly will not leave, uncontested in a public view, such an absurdity of behavior and concept in a forum which others may take as a serious source of knowledge, I will stay for as long as it takes until perhaps one of you realize the absurdity of your position .
4.- In all your absurdity and ignorance, you have clinged to the name toki-moai and the existence of someone who receives payment for creating one for you, for claiming exclusion knowledge or knowledge of inexistence or knowledge by ignorance if you prefer, all the time and in spite of having been directed to realize what it is and what it means, you have willingly ignored the main facts:
Your attitude not only reveals ignorance and the incapacity to accept it and to move on to correct it, but your extreme need to justify your ignorance through bullying and ridiculing, the very tools of the ignorant and egocentric. I am and we are all teachers of pupils and pupils of teachers ALL our lives, you have not certainly arrived to know all and judging by your attitude towards new knowledge, you never will even be close to it, unless you take this as a lesson and you incorporate in your life the Book of Changes as it was intended to be, a tool for teaching flow, adaptation and the flow of events, not just a divination toy.:
The I Ching is based in the drawing of lines which represent the Universe and its elements, you and the world, what you call a trigram, in Yonaguni or any other place of the Three Kingdoms of RyuKyu would have been called a toki-moai, the Union of All Times. Each time you toss your objects and create writing a combination of lines which you will call hexagrams, you have just created a toki-moai in RyuKyuan dialect, each time you have bought an I Ching book or table, you purchased and yes, you used your money, in a catalog of toki-moais, only the language in which you call it is different. Each time you ridicule the existence of toki-moai, you ridicule the very thing you say you believe in, the hexagrams and trigrams of the I Ching.:
7.-If the above didn't make you yet realize how childish you have been or how ignorant you are in matters you should know, if you still want to portray me as a virtual charlatan or even a scam and yourself as the serious student of I Ching, lets make a test, I will ask you some questions, if you know the answers, this is a real serious forum and you know what you are doing, if you don't know the answers or you need to click many links to find it, you are just playing around with something you don't understand and you have the chance to change mind and start to really study what is a symbol, called toki-moai or stupa or totem or talisman or trigram, what it represents and how is it related with the I Ching. Lets go for it::
Here you are, lets see... Please be aware that you are not answering me, so avoid excuses for not replying, you are answering yourself...
:bows:
Some rules though: your rules are to get bibliographic reference or you threat with disbelief, my rules are: 1) believe what you want, it doesn't affect my knowledge...and after all it is your prerogative
Shoot. With all you've got. Even if there's something I can't digest myself, there are those here that certainly can. That's why I say that your knowledge can "benefit all"2) Most accurate bibliography is in cantonese or mandarin, some in ancient dialects, can you handle it with some web resource or something ? English, French
Thanks, I've books on the Yi pouring out of my ears and what I don't have and somebody points out to me, I'll most likely buy, even in Chinese, of which I have quite a few.Ideas are not words and this has been the obstacle to the best translations, to read in the originals or to have somne resource which can provide multiple possible translations, is a must if you want bibliographic reference.
Suggest away, please.3) I can suggest references but don't expect pointing to or so, you are on your own.
Yes, your opinion. Even the best kept secrets and oral traditions must be put down on ink and paper at some point in history. That some remain "hidden" does not mean they are not in "print".4) It is completely untrue in my opinion that all I Ching is in written records, as a matter of fact there was an edict from King Wu about preserving the essence of the I Ching in secret writing and paintings which could not be understood without key knowledge, and that was long after the I Ching was in use even under other names which carry us to unexplored territory and lots of possible work on the true origins. Not even the Shu Jing is totally reliable. Oral lineage is most of the times untrue on matters related with ancient religions or beliefs which can bring profit to whom "rediscover" them, but there are many manuscripts and images as well as oral transmitted stories which contain true knowledge, to discard those in favor of bibliography or worst translated bibliography will let you with very limited new data to discover. Careful scrutiny by comparison with language and seemingly unrelated areas of the same alleged epoch will however validate what is true most of the times while bibliography only will not. (My Opinion)
I wasn't proposing to test you; I was inviting you to share knowledge. As for Yi knowledge, well..., I don't have much. I'll never make a such a claim as being a "scholar of the Yi". Furthermore, if you go through my postings you'll notice a certain pattern of "goofiness". I like it that way...5) For I can see if I know something you don't, first I need to know how much you know, so...I am still waiting the answers to the questions I posed in a previous message....
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).