38.2 huh?

[Trojina]

Just had another 38, this time 38.1.2.6 > 16

Only time will tell, but it may very well turn out that at least one of the new people I recently met, may turn out to be more important to me than just a passing acquaintance.

I'm reluctant to give it much weight because people don't tend to stick with me, out of sight, out of mind as they say, so as soon as I'm not in their face, they tend to forget about me. But if I stay at this place of work longer, maybe I'll become good friends with some of them. (incidentally the question was about how to go about becoming good friends with these people)

The way you said this made me chuckle alot .......

Hot tip......when someone you like goes to the bathroom or is on their mobile quickly superglue a passport size photo of yourself (looking ravishing obvioulsy) into their wallet.

Now how can they forget !!

 

[precision grace]

The way you said this made me chuckle alot .......

Hot tip......when someone you like goes to the bathroom or is on their mobile quickly superglue a passport size photo of yourself (looking ravishing obvioulsy) into their wallet.

Now how can they forget !!

Brilliant idea! And I'm quite good with Photoshop too..

 

[charly]

... I want to work with these people as well as socialize (i.e. be friends), but only if it is the right thing for me to do and be involved in. (maybe 38.6 over and over again - not sure if these are friends or foes). I still feel reluctant to make my mind up about someone without first knowing how they feel about me, which I know is very cowardly

Hi, Grace:
38.6 is maybe the most strange line of the Changes. Shaugnessy said that it speaks of stars and constellations, which is possible, but 38.6 also tells many stories.

One story is, I believe, about friendship, courtship, marriage and sex. Of course, the path is forked and each branch leads to a different view.

38.6 HAS A STRUCTURE:

1st. begining:
Staring lonely, lonely strangers or isolated among friends.

2nd. strange encounters:
• Muddy Swine or, maybe, a pig bearing undecipherable scripts. The unconscious.
• Carting Ghosts, many ghosts for only one cart, excessive ghosts. Maybe a heavy past.

3rd. defensive gestures:
• Drawing one's Bow, stretching the arc and releasing it, whose objective is to expel the evil.
→ Curiously there is a folk belief that men can expel the evil f_cking. Arrows and bows are phallic symbols and to shoot is an euphemism for sexual intercourse. Even more, shuo1 taken for to release the bow also means to enjoy the bow.

4th.: final encounters:
• The F_cking Bandits, wife raiders or bridegroom prospects [riding horses?] Things are not what they seem.
• Towards Meeting Rain, but Lucky, say soaked but happy, which can have a shamanic sense or can follow the marriage story.

I believe that all that fits enough with your story, of course, whit an open end. I wonder, if you don't near that people, how can get them as friends. Feelings are not fixed, some friendly relations begin fighting. If you look friendly first will look how they react.

Not all the people to whom you smile will love you, but maybe it's preferable so. Don't be shy, try.


All the best,


Charly

 

[precision grace]

Thank you Charly. I thought 31 was the attraction hexagram..then there are 54, 44... (is there a list of relationship hexagrams somewhere?)

this 38.6 'he will woo at the right time' - I wonder if that is even appropriate, as it I feel sidetracks into thinking of relationships when the whole hexagram is about opposition and overcoming differences (which obviously can be done within the context of many relationships, husband-wife as much as mother-child, friend-friend, colleague-colleague, worker-boss etc ad infinitum)

I just feel there is too much sex in those stories of yours that perhaps 38 doesn't mean to convey?

 

[charly]

...
I just feel there is too much sex in those stories of yours that perhaps 38 doesn't mean to convey?

Hi Grace:

Don't worry, I feel the same. Of course, the Changes is not speaking of sex all the time. Often we must read sexual imagery as metaphors.

But if we don't translate literally the image, the metaphoric sense gets lost.

Think in flower as a metaphor of beauty. Imagine a wanderer that writes «the flowers of this country are superb». If we translate it the beauties ... or the women ... The metaphor disappears.

And the good with metaphors is that they hold innumerable meanings, one o wich can fit with the context of our consult.

And what if the wanderer had in mind an actual flower, say, a rose? The writen phrase remain the same. The text has liberated itself from its author. No matters the intention of the author, the text remain the same and the actual meaning depends on the reader.

The compilers of the Zhouyi used the union of two sexes as a metaphor for the interplay of forces in nature. I believe that in their prescience, they hit upon an important feature of sexual reproduction---namely that it involves combinatorial elements; it is a fusion of randomness and necessity. This uncanny insight gives considerable depth to the Zhouyi’s symbols.

Denis Mair: My approach to the Zhouyi
[Available in the web]

All the best,


Charly

P.D.:
I believe that H.38 is mor about STRANGENESS than about OPPOSITION.
Ch.

 

[precision grace]

I believe that H.38 is mor about STRANGENESS than about OPPOSITION.
Ch.

Yes, I agree. I think it's really all about overcoming the strangeness of two parties from non familiar backgrounds trying to find the common ground. This could of course translate to everything from making cakes from marshmallows to Romeo and Juliet

Metaphors are brilliant but can also be very misleading if gotten wrong. I guess this is why it's so important to have good commentaries or translations, because you would assume that the author would have fully understood the meaning and then wrapped it in such packaging as to make it understandable to an audience from a different background.

Hmm.. All Commentaries are 38 aren't they?

 

[Trojina]

Yes, I agree. I think it's really all about overcoming the strangeness of two parties from non familiar backgrounds trying to find the common ground. This could of course translate to everything from making cakes from marshmallows to Romeo and Juliet

Metaphors are brilliant but can also be very misleading if gotten wrong. I guess this is why it's so important to have good commentaries or translations, because you would assume that the author would have fully understood the meaning and then wrapped it in such packaging as to make it understandable to an audience from a different background.

Hmm.. All Commentaries are 38 aren't they?

I don't think I'd say the idea of 38 is to overcome 'strangeness' nor to find common ground. I think its more like accepting strangness and not trying to remedy it on any kind of deep level....Actually I'd say 38 is very much about individuality. Preserving individuality in the face of difference....not running to find common ground....not at all.

If the sequence is seen as a story with 37 being family, belonging....fitting into your place in the scheme of things etc then it follows one must inevitably leave this to find ones own individuality in 38.

The Image in 38 from Wilhelm says "Thus amid all fellowship The superior man retains his individuality" A youth has to leave where she belonged in 37 and be her own self in 38.. One cannot know ones own self so clearly if one is constantly enmeshed in a family, so one has to know not belonging, feeling strange....

38 says its okay to connect over small superficial things to keep things friendly so to speak, but don't try to make the two of you see the same way or expect real fusion or unity....its not there....and its fine that its not there.


Here are 2 emoticons enacting 38 for me















You see they are both perfectly happy doing their own thing. I think they might exchange remarks about the weather and the price of bread but I don't think emotionally...or intellectually they are ever going to see the world the same way....so its good they can just emote side by side.




If they tried to get too close this might happen

ouch

see not enough room for either of them to be themselves.....and lets face they both need plenty of room to be themselves




Re the sequence...I don't actually believe in it but pairs make sense to me 37 and 38....39 and 40 and so on and so on

 

[Trojina]

I guess the lines all address how the strangeness is handled and where its going.

I mean one might get 38 even within a very close relationship so its times of strangeness perhaps rather than just out and out strangeness.....in our questions

38 unchanging I think often counsels to be okay with being who you are, not trying hard to meld with them. Not wanting them to meld with you....

 

[precision grace]

Hmm, thanks trojan, interesting view. So how do you explain 38.2 - meeting one's Master. I mean, I would understand a Master (whether it be a person or a metaphor) to be something very close/enmeshed with one, so I don't know how that fits in your interpretation of 38 being poles apart without a meeting place (if I get your drift correctly). 38 is all about meeting the other in all sorts of unsuccessful and successful ways. So a lot of meetings taking place, whereas you are suggesting

38 unchanging I think often counsels to be okay with being who you are, not trying hard to meld with them. Not wanting them to meld with you....

which I don't really see. Could you be more specific, line by line? (sorry to be dense)


PS. as an entertaining aside, Li/Tui flame over water is like me - Aries on the outside, Cancer Rising. I *am* this hexagram

 

[Trojina]

Hmm, thanks trojan, interesting view. So how do you explain 38.2 - meeting one's Master. I mean, I would understand a Master (whether it be a person or a metaphor) to be something very close/enmeshed with one, so I don't know how that fits in your interpretation of 38 being poles apart without a meeting place (if I get your drift correctly). 38 is all about meeting the other in all sorts of unsuccessful and successful ways. So a lot of meetings taking place, whereas you are suggesting


which I don't really see. Could you be more specific, line by line? (sorry to be dense)


PS. as an entertaining aside, Li/Tui flame over water is like me - Aries on the outside, Cancer Rising. I *am* this hexagram

Re your aside yes I think 38 often describes an inner orientation. I shouldn't think being Aries with Cancer rising is easy.

I think I gave my view on 38.2 earlier on in the thread.....and ended up saying, helpfully, that it doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I guess we have to remember whatever the lines describe they are in the context of the actual hexagram.


I may have said this earlier in thread on so pardon repetition but I recall getting 38 uc for a weekend away with people I wasn't on a wave length with and i asked how to handle it. I found the image very helpful...it was okay to retain individuality. What a relief....and it worked. I could be me, they could be them without the stress induced by aiming for close mind meld....phew. But nevertheless we were still together, communicating....so I might see the lines describing how in a 38 ish situation meeting/meldings can happen......but still against the backdrop of 38.

We need a mental stage back drop for each hexagram the lines being the particular against that backdrop.

I wasn't meaning to suggest 38 would have to mean being poles apart forever.....its just the current picture....and its not bad, doesn't feel bad if you can be quite rooted in your own individuality, if you aren't seeking to merge and lose yourself.

Take many work situations. You might be aware that with many people if you discussed things in any depth you might find conflict...if you tried to connect deeply you'd find difference. However you can get along perfectly well if you stick to discussing last nights TV or the lunch menu. In that situation you might intuitively know its healthier for you not to try to deeply connect.

Going through the lines you get development in that canteen work place situation.

My attempt to go through the lines in the workplace canteen is as follows ;

ahem........38 stage scenery needed

38.1 The person from accounts thinks you deliberately spilled tomato soup down her top when you were getting your lunch. You had a series of similar unfortunate incidents with this person. You had also accidentally tipped coffee over her computer and shut her foot in the lift door. You have the impulse to apologise now about the soup.....to tell her none of those things were deliberate.......but she looks at you like you are something off the bottom of her shoe. This line says don't bother apologising..... running running to reunite to grab reconnection. She will see in in time all by herself....you can let her go

38.2 I did that one earlier on...it also involved a lift

38.3 The person I described in 38.1 has convinced everyone you are some kind of sociopath ....and whats worse everyone believes her. People point at you in the corridor and they flinch when you pass them carrying soup or coffee. Its got to the stage where it would seem there is nothing at all you can do about this....and yet something tells you theres some light at the end of the tunnel

38.4. One of the dinner ladies whom you happen to be quite friendly with noticed the soup incident in 38.1 and requests a memo to be sent out to all staff that there has been an overall high volume of soup spillage incidents of late due to an inexperienced kitchen asst adding too much liquid to the stock.

38.5. Actually the dinner lady was your auntie and made the watery soup story up to help you out.

38.6. Actually all the 'they' you saw in 38.3 aren't really a 'they' at all in the way you thought they were. They had other things on their mind than the soup incident and the coffee and lift incident all along....they hadn't seen what you thought they saw...you realise you never had been truly able to see through their eyes anyway.



ETA to sum up you can't see through someone elses eyes here and they can't see through yours....you are better off to look through your own eyes and understand they are looking through theirs. Now and then theres a shaft of light, an intermission, in the lines (?) where you might almost see both sets of views...or someone can see through your eyes for a while, like 38.4...and 38.5 your sense of isolation is broken through. However the overall 38 state is not wrong as such since you do need space to become who you are its just that space can be experienced as isolation sometimes.


I lost track of your questions as its been quite a long thread but if you are getting 38 and the lines alot maybe you are grappling, in quite a big way, with retaining your individuality versus relating to others and its quite full on right now...like its quite a central issue now.

 

[answeredquestions]

PS. as an entertaining aside, Li/Tui flame over water is like me - Aries on the outside, Cancer Rising. I *am* this hexagram

I think imagining the trigrams are really helpful in 38. Fire is above so I see it as the 'lord' or master sometimes. This is just my take but I see it a lot like watching fire works over a lake. In the end these two opposite energies can never mix together because they would cancel each other out. But lake can reflect the fire for a little while which I sort of see in 38.2 meeting the lord. We can briefly learn something from this meeting that is opposite of our natural self, but in the end, we are what we are. I usually see myself as the lake part, but it could very well be the other way around. Also, when 38 changes to 21 the bottom trigram changes from a watery state (lake) to a dynamic moving state (thunder), sort of like it is gaining a bit of the fire for a second, reflecting it after meeting it in the alley. I can see where this would be very 21 like because of the massive clash of elements. 38's nuclear hexagram 63 is dealing with this extreme opposites of elements, but I think the lake calms it down a bit and has a more reflective passive natural feel to it and so you are able to step back and understand the strangeness and differences more easily and accept them for what they are. All the while knowing how wonderful of a person you are being yourself, and knowing that they are wonderful being them.

 

[precision grace]

Re your aside yes I think 38 often describes an inner orientation. I shouldn't think being Aries with Cancer rising is easy.

it's bloody awful, pardon my french.

I think I gave my view on 38.2 earlier on in the thread.....and ended up saying, helpfully, that it doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I guess we have to remember whatever the lines describe they are in the context of the actual hexagram.


I may have said this earlier in thread on so pardon repetition but I recall getting 38 uc for a weekend away with people I wasn't on a wave length with and i asked how to handle it. I found the image very helpful...it was okay to retain individuality. What a relief....and it worked. I could be me, they could be them without the stress induced by aiming for close mind meld....phew. But nevertheless we were still together, communicating....so I might see the lines describing how in a 38 ish situation meeting/meldings can happen......but still against the backdrop of 38.

We need a mental stage back drop for each hexagram the lines being the particular against that backdrop.

I wasn't meaning to suggest 38 would have to mean being poles apart forever.....its just the current picture....and its not bad, doesn't feel bad if you can be quite rooted in your own individuality, if you aren't seeking to merge and lose yourself.

Take many work situations. You might be aware that with many people if you discussed things in any depth you might find conflict...if you tried to connect deeply you'd find difference. However you can get along perfectly well if you stick to discussing last nights TV or the lunch menu. In that situation you might intuitively know its healthier for you not to try to deeply connect.

Going through the lines you get development in that canteen work place situation.

My attempt to go through the lines in the workplace canteen is as follows ;

ahem........38 stage scenery needed

38.1 The person from accounts thinks you deliberately spilled tomato soup down her top when you were getting your lunch. You had a series of similar unfortunate incidents with this person. You had also accidentally tipped coffee over her computer and shut her foot in the lift door. You have the impulse to apologise now about the soup.....to tell her none of those things were deliberate.......but she looks at you like you are something off the bottom of her shoe. This line says don't bother apologising..... running running to reunite to grab reconnection. She will see in in time all by herself....you can let her go

38.2 I did that one earlier on...it also involved a lift

38.3 The person I described in 38.1 has convinced everyone you are some kind of sociopath ....and whats worse everyone believes her. People point at you in the corridor and they flinch when you pass them carrying soup or coffee. Its got to the stage where it would seem there is nothing at all you can do about this....and yet something tells you theres some light at the end of the tunnel

38.4. One of the dinner ladies whom you happen to be quite friendly with noticed the soup incident in 38.1 and requests a memo to be sent out to all staff that there has been an overall high volume of soup spillage incidents of late due to an inexperienced kitchen asst adding too much liquid to the stock.

38.5. Actually the dinner lady was your auntie and made the watery soup story up to help you out.

38.6. Actually all the 'they' you saw in 38.3 aren't really a 'they' at all in the way you thought they were. They had other things on their mind than the soup incident and the coffee and lift incident all along....they hadn't seen what you thought they saw...you realise you never had been truly able to see through their eyes anyway.



ETA to sum up you can't see through someone elses eyes here and they can't see through yours....you are better off to look through your own eyes and understand they are looking through theirs. Now and then theres a shaft of light, an intermission, in the lines (?) where you might almost see both sets of views...or someone can see through your eyes for a while, like 38.4...and 38.5 your sense of isolation is broken through. However the overall 38 state is not wrong as such since you do need space to become who you are its just that space can be experienced as isolation sometimes.

I love the little story you made up! How do you know I spill things all the time?!??

I have never seen 38 as one of trying to maintain individuality because as answered questions points out, fire over water - if they tried to merge they'd cancel eachother out, so 38 seems like a situation where that isn't even an issue but maybe that's the point.

I lost track of your questions as its been quite a long thread but if you are getting 38 and the lines alot maybe you are grappling, in quite a big way, with retaining your individuality versus relating to others and its quite full on right now...like its quite a central issue now.

This has always been a big issue for me and I've mentioned it elsewhere on this board - not feeling like I can be myself around people, having to play act in order to be accepted. Weirdly, the people I am working with at the moment sort of let me be myself and although they keep trying to find out what I am like and then get a bit upset (lol) when it doesn't match them, I don't feel so much pressure to conform or try to change in order to fit in. That's probably due to my own inner growth than the people themselves. But I know what you mean about meeting someone and just knowing instantly that you can't go further than polite talk about the weather with them.
And then there are other types when it feels like instant connection or like you've known eachother forever. It's really those that throw me the most because the feeling of closeness is so strong, yet I don't know the person at all. Never quite know what to do with those..

 

[precision grace]

I think imagining the trigrams are really helpful in 38. Fire is above so I see it as the 'lord' or master sometimes. This is just my take but I see it a lot like watching fire works over a lake. In the end these two opposite energies can never mix together because they would cancel each other out. But lake can reflect the fire for a little while which I sort of see in 38.2 meeting the lord. We can briefly learn something from this meeting that is opposite of our natural self, but in the end, we are what we are. I usually see myself as the lake part, but it could very well be the other way around. Also, when 38 changes to 21 the bottom trigram changes from a watery state (lake) to a dynamic moving state (thunder), sort of like it is gaining a bit of the fire for a second, reflecting it after meeting it in the alley. I can see where this would be very 21 like because of the massive clash of elements. 38's nuclear hexagram 63 is dealing with this extreme opposites of elements, but I think the lake calms it down a bit and has a more reflective passive natural feel to it and so you are able to step back and understand the strangeness and differences more easily and accept them for what they are. All the while knowing how wonderful of a person you are being yourself, and knowing that they are wonderful being them.

you know, being a fire/water sign and having been in a relationship with someone who was water/fire, it can be fun and steamy for a while but water always douses fire in the end. And when you have this combination internally, it's really challenging, because it's like being two different people who can never get along all at the same time. What is needed is a cauldron between the lake and the fire and then you can accomplish something useful by cooking a pheasant in the pot for example. So long as the yummy flesh doesn't go uneaten, of course

 

[answeredquestions]

In 38's case, the fire rises up and the lake stays down, so no cooking .. I feel like meeting the lord has something to do with taking a look at yourself in comparison to the lord. Like saying, ok, I see the difference and I am okay with it. You gain something small from the meeting, not how to become like the lord, but to keep going on with what sets you apart. All of the lines are about 'seeing', sort of like 20 is about viewing things, 38's like seeing the differences (learned that from Wikiwing).

 

[precision grace]

hmm are you saying 38 is about water/lake learning how it's different to fire?

 

[answeredquestions]

I think that could be one way of looking at it yeah. One of the differences between water and lake is the movement. The water seems to be rushing and the lake is more still. River vs Lake type thing. Water that is rushing by, you cannot see your reflection so much as in a lake. Whenever there is opposition, a good thing to do is to take a look at the differences and mainly take a look at yourself to understand. And in this case with fire and lake, and knowing you cannot really mix them, they are better off separately looked at. Sort of like if you mixed red and green together you get grayish brown. iiick. if you keep them separate yet next to each other, they compliment each other really well. Thanks for posting this thread because I am learning a lot just talking about this.

The zodiac sign thing is interesting too. I see the Cancer/Aquarius relationship as hexagram 63ish even though Aquarius is an air sign. Do you feel you identify more with Cancer or Aries?

 

[precision grace]

I think that could be one way of looking at it yeah. One of the differences between water and lake is the movement. The water seems to be rushing and the lake is more still. River vs Lake type thing. Water that is rushing by, you cannot see your reflection so much as in a lake. Whenever there is opposition, a good thing to do is to take a look at the differences and mainly take a look at yourself to understand. And in this case with fire and lake, and knowing you cannot really mix them, they are better off separately looked at. Sort of like if you mixed red and green together you get grayish brown. iiick. if you keep them separate yet next to each other, they compliment each other really well. Thanks for posting this thread because I am learning a lot just talking about this.

The zodiac sign thing is interesting too. I see the Cancer/Aquarius relationship as hexagram 63ish even though Aquarius is an air sign. Do you feel you identify more with Cancer or Aries?

Actually I identify with Aquarius the most - I have a lot of it in my chart.

I think 38.2 and the rest of 38 may indeed have been about meeting other people, it was just too early to tell at the time. So, I'll let some more time pass and see what happens..

 

[charly]

...
PS. as an entertaining aside, Li/Tui flame over water is like me - Aries on the outside, Cancer Rising. I *am* this hexagram

Hi, Grace:

Interesting that you identificate yourself with H.38, fire and water, opposition, conflict, but also collaboration between partners that conserve their own individuality.

The lower trigram is called JOY and, maybe insipidly, LAKE.
But the character ZE means:
• a pond, a pool
• a swamp, a marsh
• damp, moist
• etc.

Think on a POND: water music, innumerable fishes, voracious carps, fertility symbols, plants and flowers everywhere, crying birds, little rodents, jumping frogs, hardly a person if not bandits from the water margins, say, rebels. The JOY of LIFE and FREEDOM.

And what's the FIRE over the POND? Maybe the ENERGY of the RISING SUN, also the OCCASION of the SETING SUN. Life doesn't rest during the night.

Another possibility is the FOOLISH FIRE, fire over the swamp, beyond strangeness, our own familiar ANCESTRAL SPIRITS, those who rule us and care us.

38.2 says (1):

遇 yu4: meet with /
主 zhu3: leader / chief / master / lord / main / owner / host / hostess /
于 yu2: at / to
巷 xiang4: lane / alley / narrow street /
无 wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
咎 jiu4: blame / to blame / mistake / wrong /

主 zhu3 looks like the modern character WANG [KING] with a little dot above. The ancient character depicted a LAMP, then, LIGHT PROVIDING, LEADING. Can be a person, an idea, an advice, our own inner demon, anima or animus, that lead us, our parents, our ancestral gifts.

No matters the opposition or conflictiveness, matters the vitality of the whole scenery.

Yours,


Charly

______________
(1) MEETING [A] LEADER AT [THE] ALLEY. NO WRONG.
The path of true learning is narrow, indeed.

Source: http://www.backpackers.com.tw/forum/gallery/index.php?n=21297

Ch.

 

[precision grace]

What to do about A & B? 38.2.3 > 30

(Having earlier asked if I should ignore them for now and been given an unequivocal no..)

I don't like Bradford's 38.3. it sounds like gang rape.

Wilhem makes more sense generally and in my particular situation "he must not let himself be misled; despite this opposition, he must cleave to the man with whom he knows he belongs."

There is definitely more than a hint of a third party working to sabotage one's progress in 38.3, wouldn't you say? Should one be advised to look upon one's fellow men with distrust, or just be docile like the cow of the resulting 30 and withstand the crap hitting the fan until it all settles down and there is that good end at long last?

 

[Trojina]

What to do about A & B? 38.2.3 > 30

(Having earlier asked if I should ignore them for now and been given an unequivocal no..)

I don't like Bradford's 38.3. it sounds like gang rape.

Wilhem makes more sense generally and in my particular situation "he must not let himself be misled; despite this opposition, he must cleave to the man with whom he knows he belongs."

There is definitely more than a hint of a third party working to sabotage one's progress in 38.3, wouldn't you say? Should one be advised to look upon one's fellow men with distrust, or just be docile like the cow of the resulting 30 and withstand the crap hitting the fan until it all settles down and there is that good end at long last?

I think Brad once related here that this line did refer to gang rape literally of his girlfriend when travelling. Apologies to Brad if I'm wrong but I'm sure I remember him relating that here as it stuck in my mind. I think he spoke of it with regard to the 'bad people' .


Whilst that particular experience is hopefully at the extreme end of the 38.3 experience I think the fundamental sense of degradation is certainly a feature of 38.3.

How else would having your hair and nose cut off feel ? My only sense of what to do in 38.3 is to wait it out ? When I've cast 38.3 I recognise there is often something going on to sabotage/defile you. I've never been sure about the good fortune in the end...just that it passes.

ETA from my own experience it doesn't seem anything one can do much about...and thats what the line describes...being halted by a wagon and set upon and being subject to attack. It doesn't look like fighting back is an option at that stage, it looks like you are over whelmed by bad people is it 'fei rien' will check that prob spelled it wrong. Theres bad people alot in the lines of 38....by bad people is also meant 'non people' people without conscience, people like sociopaths (?) or as has been discussed elsewhere sometimes people just not like us.

 

[Trojina]

Theres been whole threads all about whats meant by these bad people or hateful people...but I can't find them using the search function here.

will keep trying just cos I want to see them again...was in Exploring Divination I know that

 

[precision grace]

I don't know if Yi had meant this, but today, saw B completely by accident (38.2) in a corridor and immediately afterwards had a completely random conversation with colleague about the biological imperative that compels mammals to murder the offspring of the females they are about to mate with (we talked about Lions, Apes and Vikings) - could this have been 38.3? I'd much rather have it mean that than that there is someone actively working against me

Edit: slightly concerned still I had asked for further information on the 38.3 part and received 62.1.6>30
..am I having ideas above my station? or just looking in the wrong place?

 

[Trojina]

Don't think that 38.3 has to mean people work actively against you but you might feel very much undermined anyway. I mean I guess 38.3 can refer to your subjective feelings alone ?

I lost track of what this is about but if you are feeling that a group of people are against you, putting you down in some way, that would fit 38.3 IMO

 

[precision grace]

it doesn't matter what it is about originally, this is an exploration thread so any permutations for a given hexagram are useful.

 

[charly]

...
Edit: slightly concerned still I had asked for further information on the 38.3 part and received 62.1.6>30
..am I having ideas above my station? or just looking in the wrong place?

Hi, Grace:

I go to see 62.1.6→30, but I believe that the first is to deepen in the own 38.3 line. Dont trust too much in W/B, that said:

38.3:
One sees the wagon dragged back,
The oxen halted,
A man's hair and nose cut off.
Not a good beginning, but a good end.

Often it seems tot a man as though everything were conspiring against him. He sees himself checked and hindered in his progress, insulted and dishonored. However, he must not let himself be misled; despite this opposition, he must cleave to the man with whom he knows he belongs. Thus, notwithstanding the bad beginning, the matter will end well.

Wilhelm/ Baynes version

38.3 literally said:

SEEING [OR MEETING WITH]
The same word means both ideas.

[A] CARRIAGE DRAGGED,
Carriage is a symbol of our path in life or of our own body.
We are forced to go out of our path, in the carriage of our situation or existence.

ITS OXEN PULLED,
Oxen are our friends, they make our heavy work,
if the oxen are pulled, we become helpless.

ITS MAN [say the driver] BALD,
Who is leading the carriage?
who is taking off the oxen?
A man without hair...

EVEN MORE NOSELESS.
... and without nose.
Maybe a dead man, an evil spirit,
The charioteer of the Death is leading the carriage.

WITHOUT BEGINING
How or when did it begin?
Now it doesn't matter.

THERE WILL BE [AN] END.
Fortunately nothing lasts forever.

Horrible image, like a nightmare, we feel helpless in the hands of destiny, without control of our own life and body.

Like in the middle of a night in the marsh. Fire over marsh, do you remember?
Helpless and sourrounded by strange spirits and fierce animals, our own worse fears.
But even in the marsh the sun will rise again and we will return to our path or maybe we will find a new path that become the ours.

Say, we feel horrible, but from that limit experience we exit become ourselves.
Nothing about good or bad.

That strange experience is not the begining, the begining lies so long ago that nobody remembers it.

The question is here and now, how to behave. We feel helpless but we are not helpless. Only that we are condemned to use our own inner resources. And the good is that we have it, don't worry.


Take care,


Charly

 

[precision grace]

a bold man? it could be our boss but he has a nose and is actually very nice.

I have been going through nightmareish time, can't sleep, have scary dreams, things in every day life don't seem to go smoothly etc. Thank you charly, your version feels closest to the essence.

:bows:

 

[Trojina]

Hi, Grace:

I go to see 62.1.6→30, but I believe that the first is to deepen in the own 38.3 line. Dont trust too much in W/B, that said:



38.3 literally said:

SEEING [OR MEETING WITH]
The same word means both ideas.

[A] CARRIAGE DRAGGED,
Carriage is a symbol of our path in life or of our own body.
We are forced to go out of our path, in the carriage of our situation or existence.

ITS OXEN PULLED,
Oxen are our friends, they make our heavy work,
if the oxen are pulled, we become helpless.

ITS MAN [say the driver] BALD,
Who is leading the carriage?
who is taking off the oxen?
A man without hair...

EVEN MORE NOSELESS.
... and without nose.
Maybe a dead man, an evil spirit,
The charioteer of the Death is leading the carriage.

WITHOUT BEGINING
How or when did it begin?
Now it doesn't matter.

THERE WILL BE [AN] END.
Fortunately nothing lasts forever.

Horrible image, like a nightmare, we feel helpless in the hands of destiny, without control of our own life and body.

Like in the middle of a night in the marsh. Fire over marsh, do you remember?
Helpless and sourrounded by strange spirits and fierce animals, our own worse fears.
But even in the marsh the sun will rise again and we will return to our path or maybe we will find a new path that become the ours.

Say, we feel horrible, but from that limit experience we exit become ourselves.
Nothing about good or bad.

That strange experience is not the begining, the begining lies so long ago that nobody remembers it.

The question is here and now, how to behave. We feel helpless but we are not helpless. Only that we are condemned to use our own inner resources. And the good is that we have it, don't worry.


Take care,


Charly

There really isn't much difference at all in what Wilhelm wrote and what you wrote is there ? Looks pretty much the same to me

 

[precision grace]

There really isn't much difference at all in what Wilhelm wrote and what you wrote is there ? Looks pretty much the same to me

This is when it gets tricky, because when one's mind is set on seeing things a certain way, it can find a way to see things that way even in a circumstance completely opposite to the one being seen. (not saying this is happening here, mind you).

Wilhem says "he must not let himself be misled; despite this opposition, he must cleave to the man with whom he knows he belongs"

Charly says "We feel helpless but we are not helpless. Only that we are condemned to use our own inner resources. And the good is that we have it, don't worry."


I suppose you could argue that the "man with whom he knows he belongs" is oneself but Yi doesn't normally do that, when it means you and your own resources, it talks about noble man setting his will on what is right. I do actually wonder about the use of metaphor and how stretchy it is. Like family ties and the fact that we tend to use it to explain our own inner processes, but of late I've come to wonder whether that's actually appropriate (and all because of the 38.2!!)

I think there is a massive difference between having to deal with an actual real live third party messing things up for you on purpose and 'evil spirits' or one's own bad luck or whatever being the cause of the bold head and nose cut off. (besides - is the man driving the oxen ourselves or someone else - in Charly's version, the oxen and the man are not the querrent - if I understood it correctly)

And with this 38.3 a (-possibly) unrelated expression occurred to me today "Wild horses wouldn't drag me away" - an altered version of "wild horses couldn't draw it from me" referring to the medieval torture of using horses to stretch a prisoner and thereby force a confession. Could it be that in ancient China they used Oxen instead of horses?

But in the received text there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of a pre-mediated malice or action. The more I look at it (from Charly's perspective) the more it seems like an issue of perspective... One SEES bad things but actually...

 

[Trojina]

I meant Charlies translation was more or less the same as Wilhelms not that his commentary was the same. Wilhelms commentaries often don't apply that much for the modern querant I don't think. Though having said that lately some of his commentaries have been spot on for me.

But I think people hang on commentaries too literally. I think its better to keep an eye on what the I Ching itself says, the image it gives...and there a re a million ways to apply that.

Someone can cut your nose and hair off literally or metaphorically. No commentator can say it will always be metaphoric. In modern life we'd expect it to be experienced metaphorically more often of course

it doesn't matter what it is about originally, this is an exploration thread so any permutations for a given hexagram are useful.

I'm getting a little confused because you have introduced parts of readings here, to do with people in corridors and folks at work etc, a scenario you update now and then about the real life situation you are encountering....alongside asking for different takes on the lines.

Fine....interesting,... but where I am getting confused is that you appear to be weighing up these various takes offered as more or less useful in terms of what would fit in with these readings ?



so are we talking about 38.3 here or 38.3 in terms of applicability to your own reading ?


38.3 could apply to a huge variation of experience...apparently one of which was experienced by someone as gang rape of his friend. (I've yet to be corrected on that...but thats what i remember) Clearly 38.3 is rarely going to refer to such a experience...but this certainly is one way it has been experienced. It can also be experienced like Charlie describes too but that doesn't mean that the more extreme example was wrong or not true to the 'essence' of the meaning of the line.

I've known 11.3 refer to death....I wouldn't say it was always going to be about death though but likewise I wouldn't exclude death as a possible manifestation of 11.3 playing out.

38.3 might be about perspective in some castings but in others in could well be about actual people who set out to do harm. One cannot say 38.3 will never ever include experience of physical attack or malice For someone it clearly did


I'm picking up, I could be wrong, that you are anxious about how to see 38.3 and are looking for the angle that fits best for you here...so in that sense I thought you weren't just talking about 38.3 in general but with regard to your readings ?

 

[precision grace]

so are we talking about 38.3 here or 38.3 in terms of applicability to your own reading ?


38.3 could apply to a huge variation of experience...apparently one of which was experienced by someone as gang rape of his friend. (I've yet to be corrected on that...but thats what i remember) Clearly 38.3 is rarely going to refer to such a experience...but this certainly is one way it has been experienced. It can also be experienced like Charlie describes too but that doesn't mean that the more extreme example was wrong or not true to the 'essence' of the meaning of the line.

I've known 11.3 refer to death....I wouldn't say it was always going to be about death though but likewise I wouldn't exclude death as a possible manifestation of 11.3 playing out.

38.3 might be about perspective in some castings but in others in could well be about actual people who set out to do harm. One cannot say 38.3 will never ever include experience of physical attack or malice For someone it clearly did


I'm picking up, I could be wrong, that you are anxious about how to see 38.3 and are looking for the angle that fits best for you here...so in that sense I thought you weren't just talking about 38.3 in general but with regard to your readings ?

both. Isn't learning done best by examples? So, amongst many other possibilities, we have my own example of 38 and 38.3 to consider. And I always think it's helpful to be able to track the progression of the situation. Isn't that why we always ask for updates? Because when we see how the situation developed we can apply our understanding of the hexagram back in time as it were and see whether it was accurate or whether it needed adjustment.

Take my 38.3 for example and the fact that it would seem one could perceive it as referring to anything from gang rape to just going through a bad patch mentally.

I find it very useful to look at this from all perspectives because it helps my understanding of the hexagram not just for this instance, but for any future instance, be it for my own reading or when considering readings of other people.

I was just reading today about the fact that line 3 is always bad. Beware the Ides of March and Line 3 in a Hexagram..or something. So...in the spirit of Exploration - should one cower and run for one's life when one get's line 3 changing? and especially 38.3?

These are important questions I feel...