38.K'uei / Opposition

[martin]

Dutch war ships?

If they are Dutch, don't you think they must be Pirate ships?

Well, I recognize one of the ships, the one to the right. It's the ship of my grandgrandgrand .. father. And he wasn't a pirate.
All my other grandgrandgrand .. fathers were, yes, but he, no.
It's definitely a warship!

 

[Sparhawk]

Perhaps, after that line, I'll find a "like minded man/woman" around here...

 

[luz]

Well, I recognize one of the ships, the one to the right. It's the ship of my grandgrandgrand .. father. And he wasn't a pirate.
All my other grandgrandgrand .. fathers were, yes, but he, no.
It's definitely a warship!

But Pirates are so much more interesting!
Maybe one of your more interesting grandgrandgrand .. fathers founded Martinique?

 

[Sparhawk]

Unconscious serendipity: My business partners, in an ocean shipping business, are Dutch... Pirates, yes, but very professional at that...

 

[martin]

Yeah, that's what they say, those pirates, that they are in the shipping bizz, right?

 

[martin]

But Pirates are so much more interesting!

Hmm, now I wonder where my pirate clothes are. Must have them somewhere ...

 

[luz]

Don't worry! I found your clothes:

View attachment 492

you'll just have to snatch them back from this guy (who happens to be Luis' partner)

 

[luz]

how do you show pictures instead of links!!?

 

[martin]

When you compose your post, click the image icon (yellow square with what looks like a mountain in it). Then you are asked for the URL of your image.
I snatched the clothes back, thank you!

 

[charly]

...
With Charlys unusual interpretive twists I just want to know has he applied these to his life or anyones life ? ... Most long term users of the Yi have all sorts of memories, journals and records, whether formally recorded or not that have shown them how certain answers have played out in their lives. They may have been consulting for many many years. So when somone comes along and says actually 'a' doesn't mean 'a' it means 'b' because they have a chinese dictionary well it doesn't mean everything. I think its very interesting and we are very lucky to have the benefits of undertandings of those who have learned Chinese - but its strange it gets so polarised on these memorising threads. Its as if we talk at cross purposes - no not cross purposes - different agendas. Scholarly precision v how it feels to live it .

Trojan:

I have used the I Ching for more than 30 years consulting for myself , for relatives and friends.

I always believe that the person that makes the consult must cast the coins, put the context, read the book and get the sense. I supply the coins, the technics, the book, the place, and only some little help. I never say what the book is «actually» saying, I never have the Truth.

The books I used were mainly Wilhelm / Baynes and Legge based spanish translations. When I cast for myself I write with pencil on the book pages what I believe in this moment that the hexagram / line is telling me. I have many contradictory records. When casting for others I never take notes.

With such a method I have no statistics for sharing.

At the 2002 crisis I was without work and I began to use for my own purposes the LiSe translation and commentaries. The chinese characters attracted my attention and got other versions, Bradford, Kerson Huang, Kunst. The LiSe commentaries liked me more than the old W/B, I understood that the rendering of the text has much to do with the intention of the translator.

Since then I have a copy of the Harvard-Yenching ZhouYI (by way of Steve Marshall site) and from time to time I seach word by word the standard meanings in english and the supposed etymology.

My work don't look for «Scholarly precision» only looks for straightening some interested distorted versions, nothing definitive, only opening ways. A I enjoy it very much. This is the sort of stuff that I can share: sometimes pedantic research, sometimes twisted stories.

I have not any chinese dictionary, I use only cheap sources, mainly from the web, I always quote the source for verification purposes or I use to say «maybe», «I believe», «some guys thiks that...».

I'm affraid that some people could feel excluded, I'm only traying to encourage others to do an active reading of the texts (chinese or not) and to give some points of view to which I adhere.

WITH RESPECT TO 38.3:

The times when I got this line I thinked «what horror! Better I look for an exit!» and I felt myself justified by the text.

Now I believe that maybe we could do something preventive: how not to arrive to this scene. How not to begin with all this.

Who are the characters in 38.3? They are:
the charriage
the oxen
the driver
maybe the hevens

What happened first? How was the lost begining?

• maybe the driver was too rude with the oxen and they take revenge ?
• maybe the charriage was tired of working for the man and dragged driver and oxen ?
• maybe being the driver more kind with animals and things this scene would never ha
  ppened?

Thanks for your attention and my apologies for my insistence in moving the dots. Will you get upset if I post another twisted story for 38.4?

Yours,

Charly

 

[Trojina]

Thanks for your attention and my apologies for my insistence in moving the dots. Will you get upset if I post another twisted story for 38.4?

Yours,

Charly

Not at all please share By 'twisted' i meant unusual BTW.

 

[Tohpol]

Here we are then...

38.4

Nine in the fourth place means:

Isolated through opposition,
One meets a like-minded man
With whom one can associate in good faith.
Despite the danger, no blame.

If a man finds himself in a company of people from whom he is separated by
an inner opposition, he becomes isolated. But if in such a situation a man
meets someone who fundamentally by the very law of his being, is kin to
him, and whom he can trust completely, he overcomes all the dangers of
isolation. His will achieves its aim, and he becomes free of faults.


Topal

 

[Sparhawk]

Come on, Charly, parsing issues aside, where who knows who's right or wrong (maybe Dobro ; maybe me or you ), I do enjoy your Chinese translation ideas and theories. 38.4 is waiting...

Un abrazo,

 

[charly]

Not at all please share By 'twisted' i meant unusual BTW.

Trojan and Luis:

38.4

睽kui2: opposition / divergence // stare // strange [W/B : OPPOSITION ]
孤gu1: lone / lonely // helpless / orphan / junior // fox [W/B : ISOLATED ]

遇yu4: meet with / [W/B : MEET]
元yuan2: primary / first / supreme [W/B : LIKE-MINDED !!! ]
夫fu1: husband / man / tall man / master [W/B : MAN]

交jiao1: interchange / to make friends / to intersect (lines) [W/B : ASSOCIATE]
孚fu2: trust / sincerity // captive [W/B : GOOD FAITH]

厲li4: severe / hard // dangerous [W/B : DANGER ]
无wu2: without / not / no [W/B : NO]
咎jiu4: blame / mistake [W/B : BLAME ]

Maybe W/B want to convince us that if we dare to oppose, this attitude will bring isolation and danger. → Be docile like a lamb.

I believe it's something twisted. See the sintax:

Subject (kui gu) → Verb (yu) → Object (yuan fu)
→ Circumstance or maybe parallellism (jiao fu)
→ Consequence (li wu jiu)

More straightforward alternatives:

Kui-Gu meets Yuan-Fu [for] interchanging sincere [compliments]. Dangerous, no blame.
Kui-Gu meets Yuan-Fu [for] interchanging captives. Dangerous, no blame.

But who are Kui-Gu and Yuan-Fu?

For Kui-Gu W/B give «isolated through opposition», there is an evident interpolation (through). In another context Legge translated Gu as «Fox», Waley says maybe it's a «cross-eyed fox» , also could be translated as «orphan» and, I belive, «Junior», «second rank chief», «ringleader», «chieftain».

Can you believe with W/B that Yuan-Fu is a «like-minded man»? Some people translated it as «first husband», I prefer «Supreme Master», maybe a General.

Replacing:

Cross-eyed Fox meets Supreme Master [for] interchanging sincere [compliments]. Dangerous, no blame.

Opponent Chieftain meets Supreme Master [for] interchanging captives. Dangerous, no blame.

It's dangerous for a Fox to meet the Supreme in spite of the compliments. It's dangerous for a Chieftain to meet the Supreme with such humanitarian goals.

The Fox hypothesis likes me very much, but the second doesn't need extra words.

I wonder what did Rutt say about it.

yours,

Charly

 

[maremaria]

Despite the danger, no blame.
.

I can't get that line. Is it the danger of isolation or the pontential danger of that new "association" ?

Any idea ?

Maria

 

[Sparhawk]

I can't get that line. Is it the danger of isolation or the pontential danger of that new "association" ?

Any idea ?

Maria

Hi Maria,

I see the danger as a product of the isolation of the subject. He seems to be surrounded by opposition until he finds a partner. Perhaps one with authority.

 

[maremaria]

Thanks Luis

 

[charly]

I can't get that line. Is it the danger of isolation or the pontential danger of that new "association" ?Any idea ?Maria

María:
The isolation of the subject is an interpretation of W/B for the character GU1, usually translated as LONELY / HELPLESS / ORPHAN.

I believe that the subject of the statement is not implicit but explicit, the subject is KUI-GU, being...

• KUI: opposition / opposed / opponent / to look at opposite directions / divergence / strange
• GU: lonely / helpless / orphan ... and, I belive, chieftain

Some alternatives:

• Noun 1st., adjective 2nd.: [THE] OPPONENT [IS] HELPLESS
• Adjective 1st., noun 2nd.: STRANGE ORPHAN or OPPONENT CHIEFTAIN

Waley says that a possible translation for KUI-GU is CROSS-EYED FOX because the character FOX is pretty similar to the character KUI. At least one time Legge translated KUI as FOX in the Book of Odes, if I remember well.

Thus, the character KUI, that LiSe says is a MAT and the ANCESTOR'S EYES could be the EYES OF A FOX GLANCING CHICKEN BONES !

I prefer another reasoning:

The character GU has wo components, CHILD and GOURD, being CHILD: little / small and GOURD a well known symbol of HEAD / CHIEF.

Then GU → LITTLE HEAD / LITTLE CHIEF / CHIEFTAIN

A strange enough Little Chieftain that meets the Supreme Master of the enemies intendig to interchange captives. A dangerous affair but no blame.

A strange leader, generous with the defeated enemies, a leader that avoids to kill the captives, maybe like Duke of Zhou.

A strange leader because maybe he was one time also a captive, like King Wen.

This cultured and generous leaders risk their lives. Usually warriors of bronze age prefer:

• to kill the defeated enemy inmediately after questioning them, they don't take captives (1).
• to postpone killing the captives for sacrificing them to the own ancestors

This is just ONE of the possible meanings.

Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) Remember The Iliad, when Oddiseus take by surprise a a trojan spy close to the greek ships. For bronze age warriors there is usually no mercy, no rescue.

 

[Sparhawk]

I wonder what did Rutt say about it.

Hola Charly,

I just got around to grab my Rutt's book... He seems to think along the same lines as you regarding the "Fox".

Rutt translates the name of the hexagram as "Espy" which would translate to Spanish as "ver" (como en "ver algo"). For 38.4, Rutt has (italics and caps are in the text):

The Fox espy;
meet a footless guy.

Crosswise-moving captives. DANGEROUS.
NO MISFORTUNE.
Troubles disappear.
​

​

Then he has this note for the line:

The received text has yu yuan fu 'meet the original husband'. Wen Yiduo believed yuan 'original' was an error for wu 'cutting off the feet'. This too would imply a punishment. The phrase rhymes with the other oracle. "The Fox espy" may have been repeated by mistake. The text has gu 'orphan', which is taken as a miscopying for hu 'fox'. The Fox may mean Sirius, the Dog Star.
Gao Feng, taking 'orphan' at face value and yuan as 'great', relates this to the Xia story mentioned in note 5:4. Shaokang, the posthumously born prince in that tale, was an orphan.
For 'crosswise' see note 14:base.

Note 5:4
The blood is presumably the blood of sacrifice. The meaning may be '(victims) waiting for bloodshed'.
Gao Heng suggests that escaping from a hole or pit refers to a story recorded in the Zuo Commentary (Duke Ai year 1: Legge 792/794) abut a queen of the Xia dynasty who was pregnant when her husband was iled during an insurrection. She escaped from imprisinment in a pit, or 'through a hole', and her son restored the family's power.

Note 14:base
Jiao 'crosswise', used also in 17:base and 38:4, probably refers to the flight of birds, but may refer to other animals. This is observed as a source of omens worldwide. Even today people in East Asia are sensitive to omens in people or animals crosing in front of them, especially in the early morning. English people read similar omens in the flight of crows, ravens and magpies, and in rodents and cats crossing one's path. Jiao is so used in Ode 215.1 and 2:

Crosswise fly the mulberry birds...
his Lordship will be besed by heaven.

Crosswise fly the mulberry birds...
protection for every state.
​

Waley, however, taking jiao as onomatopoeic, thought the birds in the Ode were chirruping, rather than flying.
Jiao could also refer to captives, as it does in line 5: it may be a short form for a homonym meaning wooden feters or a cangue.
​

Sorry for delay, I lost my DSL connection at home last night...

 

[maremaria]

Hi Charly & Luis,

Thank you for the extra information. A lot of things to study ....

Maria

 

[frank_r]

The fourth line is changing so the upper trigram fire is changing into mountain(earth), and the upper nucleus is changing from water into thunder (wood). So this line belongs to water and fire at the sametime. This is the deepest axis there is. The heart and kidney axis. This is the biggest opposition there is in the body.
For the rest there is mountain and thunder. The start of a cycle and the end of a cycle(Wen cycle). So there is a new start inside and there will be clarity in the end.

Nigel Richmond is writing with this line: " Accepting opposition as being reality is accepting isolation from other people, but this also accepts their seperate value. This is being a form, which he came to do, does not like, and changes.

For 38 he is writing Joy(tui) flames up(Li), is quenched(K'an), and flames again(Li).

 

[maremaria]

.... This is the deepest axis there is. The heart and kidney axis. This is the biggest opposition there is in the body.
.

Hi Frank,
Could you explain what do you mean ?

Maria

 

[frank_r]

Hi Frank,
Could you explain what do you mean ?

Maria

Hello Maria,

The water fire axis is the only axis that is the same in the Wen and Fu Shi sequence the only difference is that it turned. The Heart belongs to element fire and kidney belongs to water. This are also the organs that stand for the deepest duality in the body, so is the heart the part that holds your individuality in heavenly sense and reacts in that way the most subtle. The emotion of the heart is also love and joy, the kidney stands for water and for history(Yuan元 qi is connected with the kidney), there is running water through the body of all the fathers and mothers before you. The kidney is the most dense in energy and holds the essences, the basis of your being(Yuan- 元yuan2- part of the text in the fourth line, as Charly pointed out). Connected with the Earth. the emotions belonging to Water/kidney are fear but also strenght and wisdom.
In Dutch there is also this expression: you can feel something on the level of your heart and kidneys. On the deepest level possible. Mayby there are also expressions about the heart and kidneys in Greek.

So I think with this line there is a great opposition but this opposition makes the deepest connection, the one between the heart and the kidneys(Water and Fire, Love and Wisdom) possible.

Frank

 

[charly]

Come on, Charly, parsing issues aside, where who knows who's right or wrong (maybe Dobro ; maybe me or you ), I do enjoy your Chinese translation ideas and theories. 38.4 is waiting...

Un abrazo,

Luis:

Thanks, very much, you saved me much polemics to be continued later.

Abrazo,

Charly

 

[charly]

Hola Charly,

I just got around to grab my Rutt's book... He seems to think along the same lines as you regarding the "Fox".
...

Luis:

Thanks for all the work you had taken with Rutt. You post rich stuff related to the FOXY WAY. I like foxes although they brought me some problems. I go to order my ideas and post you assap some hypothesis.

I have no background enough for polemize with Rutt but I don't trust in his translation, not able for consulting purposes. I don't understand how do you dare to have in your home a book that's dripping blood.

(to be continued)

Abrazo,

Charly

 

[charly]

... I think with this line there is a great opposition but this opposition makes the deepest connection, the one between the heart and the kidneys(Water and Fire, Love and Wisdom) ...

Frank:

Deepest connetion indeed.

KUI-GU connecting YUAN-FU.
HEART connectig KIDNEYS.
LOVE connecting WISDOM.

As with all connections there is the riks of getting an short circuit.
Inner connection, danger but no blame.

Yours,

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

I have no background enough for polemize with Rutt but I don't trust in his translation, not able for consulting purposes. I don't understand how do you dare to have in your home a book that's dripping blood.

Charly

I don't mind much the blood. I love grilled "morcillas"...

 

[maremaria]

Very interesting Frank. Thank you.

Seems that the danger is when one of the two parts is weak(not healthy in the case of heart and kidney) then causes problem to the other. But when they act in balance, then no blame.
Btw, I don’t recall any similar saying about heart and kidneys.

Maria

 

[charly]

I don't mind much the blood. I love grilled "morcillas"...

But Rutt's sausages are raw!
Charly

 

[frank_r]

38 line 5

Six in the fifth place means:
Remorse disappears.
The companion bites his way through the wrappings.
If one goes to him,
How could it be a mistake?

Coming upon a sincere man, one fails to recognize him at first because of the general estrangement. However, he bites his way through the wrappings that are causing the separation. When such a companion thus reveals himself in his true character, it is one's duty to go to meet him and to work with him.