54.1 to 40, 17.5 to 51

[rosada]

Yes martin, you did miss something: Noisy specfically states in post #7 that since reconnecting with his old friend he thinks "I'm ready for divorce now."

 

[luz]

Autumn,

I think I understand your point, and I think it's good advice to tell him to ask about what to do about his wife, etc. But the bottom line is that he is not here to be judged or admonished and it's also true that sometimes us women tend to react strongly to perceived typical male behaviour, but it really comes accross as if we are projecting our grievances on the first guilty guy we can find.

The truth is we don't know much about noisy carpet and he hasn't even proclaimed that he loves his wife, so we can't accuse him of not loving her. Like Trojan points out, feelings are usually not so neatly packaged and this infatuation might even turn out to be something good for his marriage, what do we know. Like Martin says, it might get his feelings flowing, not necessarily do those feelings have to be for the ex-gf.

Also, I don't think that love for your children is comparable to love for your partner... you might be more attached to your partner than to your kids... but people fall out of love with their partners a LOT more often than they fall out of love with their kids. It's in fact a bit against nature to fall out of love with your kids. But that is just my opinion and would in fact love to hear other opinions about this..

What brought the ex-gf back? Maybe a desire to reassure herself, like trojan says or, who knows, maybe she just felt like she needed a friend... and noisy carpet seems to be in a vulnerable spot in his relationship and seems to have become very infatuated with her and what could be or could have been... i think this happens every day to a lot of people, at least noisy carpet is trying to make sense out of it and not acting it out just yet...

 

[Trojina]

Gee, Martin, I usually always say, "Does He Love Me?" and "We're not actually dating but" and "I've never thought of cheating on my husband before but" when my REAL intentions are completely platonic.

But I expected that kind of denial from this board, and expect a whole lot more of it, too. Good luck.

It isn't any of our business whether his intentions are platonic or not, I don't think its remotely relevant. . So what if he wants to sleep with her, its not a terrible crime is it ? You can't believe surely that it never crosses the minds of married men to sleep with other women, lol. How long can a married couple go without having sexual fantasies about another person, mmm studies have shown probably about 3 weeks.

Theres alot of bias towards holding to the marriage as the best option in our answers and I do think some of the answers suggest that, like 54,1. But I don't believe in marriage as this great sacred thing all must be sacrificed to at all costs, nor textbook definitions of what 'healthy' love is, nor soulmates come to that - but thats just my opinion, like your views are just your opinion.

 

[autumn]

See:

My "reactions" are to 17.5 (51), 59.1.2. (42), and 48.5 (46) which all have a common theme of growth in understanding a higher form of love.

It is my judgment that many, many people, including parents in relationship to their children, are hindered in their ability to love truly and unconditionally because of their tendency to not appreciate the full "reality" of the inner world of their partner or loved one. This inability to appreciate the "reality" of the inner world of the other person is what allows people to psychologically deceive themselves into believing that there is some higher purpose to an attraction and affair.

The first time most people (and women are just as likely to cheat as men) have an affair they are usually highly convinced that there situation is unique, that the other man or woman is their soulmate, and that there are valid reasons to begin another relationship before dealing with and ending another. These are almost always delusions.

 

[martin]

Yes martin, you did miss something: Noisy specfically states in post #7 that since reconnecting with his old friend he thinks "I'm ready for divorce now."

Indeed, thank you for pointing that out Rosada. But I think that Noisy took that back more or less in a later post (I cited part of it earlier).
And anyway, I fully agree with what Trojan and Lightangel said. It's not our businesss if Noisy's intentions are platonic or not and he is not here to be judged or admonished.

 

[Trojina]

Hmm, seems I crossed posts with you. Who knows, maybe that was a good thing.

Anyway, I still recommend "show me her purpose" from a higher perspective, and "how to proceed with my wife". I'd interpret 59.1.2 (42) as how to proceed.

My interpretation of that answer is that you need to delve deeply within yourself to unlock what she is touching in your psyche and surrender to it. Having surrended to it, you can communicate with her about the soulmate feeling (61.2) you are feeling, which has the potential to enrich your life. That does not necessarily mean you should run off with her. Look closely at her purpose in your life and how to proceed with your wife. Soulmates come into our lives to teach a spiritual lesson, not necessarily to be our life partners.

Your're confusing me Autumn as here a few posts ago you seemed to be actively encouraging Noisy to look at this relationship from a higher perspective, indeed you suggest the question "show me her purpose from a higher perspective". When he asked the question you suggested you said "don't involve in vain speculations about what is her purpose in my life "

Now in your last post you say that its the inability to appreciate the inner reality of another that leads to the delusion there is a higher spiritual purpose in the affair.
Seems to me you've taken opposing stances in the space of a few posts ?

As it is none of us even truly know its a delusion. Your responses are clearly relating to something in your own experience, its like you are heavily identifying with the wife even though you don't know how their relationship is at all.

If someone else was reacting as you are you would see it straight away. When I do it next you can point it out to me - that will be my come uppance for pointing it out to you

 

[rosada]

One of the great things about having a group of us willing to post our thoughts is we are going to have different perspectives. LightAngel, you may feel it would be inappropriate for you to give Noisy the sort of feedback he got from Autumn, but she was telling him how she sees it from where she's standing and that's what she's supposed to do. I'm feeling tweaked that Martin has implied my interpretation of the hexagrams is unrelated to what noisy has told us about himself. I think everything I've said in responce to his questions can be found in the hexagrams, but what the heck, Martin is just telling us how he sees it. But more important than whether we're supposed to be polite or blunt with our readings, the bigger question is why are we studying the I Ching? What are we doing these readings for? To improve the mores or to help someone cheat on his wife? Sure everyone that thinks noisy's plotting to have an affair is a really dumb idea could just keep quiet, but why should we? Indeed, as Autumn pointed out, everything in the hexagrams can be easily interpreted to mean "This ain't a good idea." Should she remain quiet just because that's probably not what noisy wants to hear? Of course not. If Willowfox or Martin or dobro sees it differently, let them speak up. But as long as we're polite, I feel it's best everyone speak freely.

 

[autumn]

Also, I don't think that love for your children is comparable to love for your partner... you might be more attached to your partner than to your kids... but people fall out of love with their partners a LOT more often than they fall out of love with their kids. It's in fact a bit against nature to fall out of love with your kids. But that is just my opinion and would in fact love to hear other opinions about this..

I addresssed that here:

marriage has many components, and some aspects of the relationship are not about real, true, love, BUT real, true unconditional love must be one part of it. It must be the bedrock for everything else.

I do not- and have not- judged anyone. But it's insinuated that I am "projecting" onto the "bad male". Why would that be? It's noone's business, but my ex-husband and I were very faithful to each other for ten years, and I still love him (in an unconditional, not romantic) way. I was seventeen when we got married and he was nineteen. So actually, you're projecting something on to me.

But of course- it's not my business. I think the affair and divorce sound like superb ideas. I think you should start right away. As you said- 48.5 is positive, and the Yi has never lied, so by all means. Don't let youself be judged. Commitment isn't all it's cracked up to be, you know.

 

[rosada]

Our emails crossed, martin. I no longer feel tweaked. Thank you.

 

[autumn]

When I said, "from a higher purpose", it meant (and I thought quite obviously) for him to examine what she was entering his life to teach him. And as I said in the same post, that does not necessarily mean the purpose is for him to leave his wife.

So, how can that possibly be confusing? What I meant is that she is triggering something internal in him. He should look at that.

 

[martin]

What I meant is that she is triggering something internal in him. He should look at that.

I agree. I guess we differ only in this respect that I got the impression that Noisy understands this very well.

 

[Trojina]

When I said, "from a higher purpose", it meant (and I thought quite obviously) for him to examine what she was entering his life to teach him. And as I said in the same post, that does not necessarily mean the purpose is for him to leave his wife.

So, how can that possibly be confusing? What I meant is that she is triggering something internal in him. He should look at that.

He knows she is triggering something internal in him ! Hes stated that quite clearly. He has come here to this forum for the purpose of 'looking at it' and you have told him not to as he according to you will be using 'higher purpose' as a reason to to 'cheat on his wife'.

Why should she be entering his life to teach him something anyway ? I hate this view everything is not good enough just in itself it has to be part of some grand scheme of lessons. I don't believe in that - thats irrelevant I know but i state it because you seem to present it as some sort of fact rather than just your belief system. Maybe them meeting is just life living for the hell of it, does it have to be part of some dreary celestial curriculum.

'Triggering something internal' sounds like indigestion.

 

[autumn]

He has come here to this forum for the purpose of 'looking at it' and you have told him not to as he according to you will be using 'higher purpose' as a reason to to 'cheat on his wife'.

Thank you for explaining to me what I said, rather than trying to understand what I said. I needed you to tell me what I meant. I feel as if I have been straightened out now and am no longer confused, because you have clarified my meaning for me.

And now, of course, he and everyone else can ignore what I actually said, because You say I said not to examine what he said.

That's an interesting dynamic you have.

 

[Trojina]

Thank you for explaining to me what I said, rather than trying to understand what I said. I needed you to tell me what I meant. I feel as if I have been straightened out now and am no longer confused, because you have clarified my meaning for me.

.

Good, you did seem a tad contradictory.

 

[willowfox]

"asking whether I should talk to her and explain what I feel. Here's what I got - 59 to 42.

Hex 59.1 suggests that you should talk to her and explain so that the issue is out in the open and therefore there will be no misunderstandings or conflict.

Hex 59.2 as you are feeling a bit lost you should make all haste to clear away any problems, so get rid of your doubts and confusion, be happy and discuss the matter with her.

Hex 42 again suggests that it is the right to do do, to reach out to her and explain how you feel, it will benefit both you and her, very favourable.

 

[noisy_carpet]

Sorry, people, I didn't intend I really didn't want to start such a storm. I only looked through the thread briefly and can I please answer to some of you concerns. Autumn, you're really a little harsh on me. I don't think I deserve it. What I feel is not about sex at all, it 's more like realising that you've been living without an arm or a leg without noticing it and it aches a lot. Sex is not important by itself, if you love somebody it's great anyway, if you don't why do you need it?
1. I'm 31, daughter's 9, married for almost 9 years now, NEVER cheated on my wife. Never needed to. Always loved her.
2. Two years ago I learned completely by accident that my wife had a relationship with her former boy friend for almost 5 years in the row. To say I was devastated is to say nothing. Actually I lost a year of my life. First time in my life I was unable to overcome depression, turned for professional help. Took tons of pills, which only made everyhting worse. Nevertheless, decided to give us both another chance, most of all for the sake of the child. I really tried to understand why it all hapenned - nothing special really - I just worked too much, she spent too much time at home.Just the normal way the world goes. I don't think my decision back then was that masculine. I never thought about any revenge or anything, because it leads nowhere. I also gained smth out of this story - I'm a lot more mature now, lot more amotionally stable. So the things got pretty normal from the 06 on and then all of a sudden I got this call. And now I just sit and wonder why? Whatever the outcome will be here I will lose. So I'm just trying to understand what's the lesson now.
Sorry if smth's unclear, I don't get a lot of sleep lately and the mind's just a bit blurry.
I'll try not to bother you anymore, just needed to talk to somebody.
Thank a lot again everyone. I'll let you know whatever happens.

 

[noisy_carpet]

one more thing I forgot - before it all hapenned with my wife two years ago, I felt that smth was wrong about her and I asked her several times if there's anything or anyone bothering her. She always told no. Still when everything became clear I accepted my part of responsibility.
When my friend called me I told my wife that I got this call, because I remembered how hard it smashes when your closest lie to you. And she just immediately said I have to proceed with my friend if I want to. Also said she didn't want to hear about it again. I can't blame her, I know how hard it is, but it's not my fault - I wasn't looking for the person, never tried to find out anything about her, tried as hard as I could to forget her. But as they say, if you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans.

 

[noisy_carpet]

willofox, thanks, that's what I gather.

 

[noisy_carpet]

rosada, thanks a lot, this a very insightful interpretation. Just like I wrote in my last post on the 5th page, I never had any real doubts about my marriage. When I said that what's happening is happening inside of me only, I meant that what happened hit me very deeply and I just cannot think about anything but her. Hopefully, this longing will go away, who knows.

 

[noisy_carpet]

martin, yes, I agree, that's already happened, I didn't struggle a lot with this reading, it's one of the most straightforward ones I ever got. Thanks!

 

[noisy_carpet]

autumn, you probably see now that the question on how I should proceed with my wife is a little irrelevant here, this is why I didn't need to ask this question. I know the answer already.

 

[noisy_carpet]

rosada, to your post #37 - I understand that there's nothing benificial here by definition, whatever happens and whatever I do it's a definite lose-lose situation. Keeping the family unbroken is a natural answer and I have no problems with it, but is this the essense? What if I just decide to forget about what happened, just let it go. Sooner or later it'll just come back, as you said and it may be even worse. So I just feel I need to do smth, but I'm not sure why and what. Being blunt will be disastrous not only for me, but also for her and I want to avoid it. It could have just an accidental call and if that's the case it'd be really stupid to give sort of soap-opera feel.
You're right, all the hexs suggest that's it's all more around wrapping things up, rather than starting smth new, so I just need to talk to her one last time. Seems like the right thing to do.

 

[autumn]

autumn, you probably see now that the question on how I should proceed with my wife is a little irrelevant here, this is why I didn't need to ask this question. I know the answer already.

Actually, I don't think this could be any less clear based on what you've said. On the one hand, you say your marriage is painful, and that she has been unfaithful to you, and you have been depressed over it, and then on the other hand you say

I never had any real doubts about my marriage. When I said that what's happening is happening inside of me only, I meant that what happened hit me very deeply and I just cannot think about anything but her. Hopefully, this longing will go away, who knows.

It seems you have a lot to deal with in your marriage, and yet you don't want to examine if leaving or staying is right for you. Instead, you want to examine the situation that you have the very least amount of control over, your ex-girlfriend. I gave you my interpretation of what your readings point to, but none of that helps you decide what to do about your marriage.

This is my last post for this thread. I must withdraw for my own reasons. I hope you can find some clarity.

Addendum: Let me add this in this last post to avoid any further conflict with anyone who might be critical of the approach I was trying to take. When I advised asking the questions that I did, I did so assuming that a)the question of "what is her purpose in my life" is an open question, and cannot really be understood fully without the answer to both the questions, 'how to proceed with her', and 'how to proceed with my wife'. Because you didn't respond to the question about your wife, I assumed there were no issues in your marriage, based on your statement that you had never thought of cheating on her before. In that case, I thought it was most appropriate to make the points about unconditional love that I made. Those points still hold true, but maybe they don't fully address all of the issues you are dealing with right now.

 

[luz]

One of the great things about having a group of us willing to post our thoughts is we are going to have different perspectives. LightAngel, you may feel it would be inappropriate for you to give Noisy the sort of feedback he got from Autumn, but she was telling him how she sees it from where she's standing and that's what she's supposed to do. I'm feeling tweaked that Martin has implied my interpretation of the hexagrams is unrelated to what noisy has told us about himself. I think everything I've said in responce to his questions can be found in the hexagrams, but what the heck, Martin is just telling us how he sees it. But more important than whether we're supposed to be polite or blunt with our readings, the bigger question is why are we studying the I Ching? What are we doing these readings for? To improve the mores or to help someone cheat on his wife? Sure everyone that thinks noisy's plotting to have an affair is a really dumb idea could just keep quiet, but why should we? Indeed, as Autumn pointed out, everything in the hexagrams can be easily interpreted to mean "This ain't a good idea." Should she remain quiet just because that's probably not what noisy wants to hear? Of course not. If Willowfox or Martin or dobro sees it differently, let them speak up. But as long as we're polite, I feel it's best everyone speak freely.

Rosada, I completely agree that everybody should express their opinions freely and politely. And I think everybody has done so. I just thought that Autumn's post sounded a bit angry and I felt I knew where she was coming from. Not from personal experience, but rather from collective experience. We've seen this kind of situation many times and 999 times out of 1000 things are the way we assume them to be.

But my point was that we don't really know noisy carpet's situation too well and I think that, while it's nobody's duty or inclination to "help him cheat on his wife", if he comes here for advice or maybe just for help on how to read the lines, I don't think he deserves to be called 'dishonest' or to tell him that he doesn't love his ex-gf or his wife because his is a selfish love... I just don't see that in the hexagrams and I don't know enough about his situation to know that either. It sounded a bit angry and I just wanted to express my opinion about that.

 

[rosada]

Thanks for clarifying, Lightangel. It is so frustrating with posting how we are limited to communicating just with words. No facial clues or voice intonations allowed! Sometimes it feels we're being judged not by our understandings or intentions, but by our abilities as short story writers. And me such an imaginative speller! Anyway..

Well, noisy, thank you for giving us the background.

Best wishes,
rosada

P.S. Incidentally, I think you miss read my post #37. I was not suggesting that YOU should be blunt, I was commenting on the postings of people here giving you feedback, that some posters tend to try to be very gentle and others simply say it as they see it. I was saying that some posters are blunt. I think it maybe significant that you missed that point, noisy. I mean, from the way you've expressed yourself and from what you've told us about your life I get the impression that you keep a lot inside, don't tell the full story, don't ask questions, blame yourself, just suck it up and soldier on. The result being you are misunderstood and you misunderstand the people around you. Coming from a broken home myself, I suspect this dates back to childhood. I came from a family where Mom and Dad never argued and so not only did I never learn how to fight and make up, I never learned to recognize there was a problem, I just thought I was genetically depressed. That is, I didn't know how to start a dialog, so I just figured something was wrong with me. I think you're doing something similar. For you to tell your wife you have ambivilant feelings for another woman and she tells you she doesn't want to hear about says SHE'S got the screw loose. SHE doesn't know how to communicate but that doesn't mean you're the one that has to adjust. Again I agree with Autumn. You don't just have to accept things the way they are at home. Ask questions. Renegotiate.

Auugh, don't you hate it when they put everything in the post script?

 

[miakoda]

Noisy,

That must have been difficult to ride along that bumpy road of postings about your life. Forums are a new entity in some ways. The rules are being written as we go. With the limited words, details withheld for the sake of privacy, and without the visual cues--the body language, the tone of voice, the demeanor of the participants--it's so easy to be misunderstood. Although I didn't post, I had been following this thread and went on a roller coaster of judgments myself. I will certainly try to learn from it.

You've gone through a lot in your marriage. It's good that you have the support of the Yi Jing, which can help to guide your conduct. Although you got knocked about a bit here, I think you also found some good support. There are many caring people who devote a lot of time to trying to help others--boddhisatvas in training????

I'd just like to add this: You also have the option for you and your wife to enter counseling. You--and your child--are the ones who could benefit the most.

I hope it works out for you.

Miakoda

 

[noisy_carpet]

Miakoda - thanks, I do feel ashamed, just lost control for a second. I actually thought about deleting some of the posts I wrote, but finally deceided not to, because what was done was done. Don't think I have anything to add now, I'll just take it as a lesson. Thanks again.

 

[noisy_carpet]

Miakoda - what actually may make things a little more difficult is the fact that I'm not a native English speaker, so there may have been some inconsistencies in what I wrote just due to the bad use of vocabulary.

 

[noisy_carpet]

Rosada, thanks for clarifying your point, it makes perfect sense. I still think I overeacted here. Sorry if it hurt you somehow.

 

[miakoda]

Noisy,

I hadn't even plugged in the notion that this might not be your first language. It's a good point to remember that those who are writing to the forum are not only like cranes in the yin, revealing their hearts and their lives, but they might have language barriers and a variety of cultural differences.

So, perhaps marriage counseling isn't part of your culture the way it is in mine? Where you live, there might be stigma attached to it or you might even have difficulty finding an experienced, effective counselor. Then, I suppose, at least you have the Yi Jing (the most ancient of counselors). But in addition, I think you now have many sympathetic--and maybe some empathetic--listeners who will try to help.

All the best,

Miakoda