61.2

[anemos]

Then why would 61.2 of necessity refer to a literal, local sharing of a goblet of wine, or even refer to a symbolic sharing with a specific literal other person? Why is it not also a metaphor, which can apply in a number of different ways? Pure hogwash (that's meant as a metaphor).

what makes no sense its not always a nonsense. The crane flights high, through the boundaries but if we think out of Yi-box its like a heresy. I recall someone here, when I connected Yi with the Greek myths I know , said to me that this is a Chinese text and what i said was irrelevant by definition !

I'm not diminishing the prevailing pov for 61.2 but I can't ignore either the out of Yi-box points of view. There is something very universal in that line , very remote in time and space, the ways I see it. It can be very local, as a little thing in our gene. I can't see it, but its there. All my ancestors, my grandmother, my great-grandmother ... Eve and Adam ... or all those different names we see in different cultures or a chimpanzee in a jungle or in a cage or the tree outside my kitchens window , my companion and my teacher during a healing time, my kinder spirit. The tree and me, a very local , personal phenomenon/ relationship. Can we say though its not universal ?

 

[anemos]

A crane calling in the shade.
Its young answers it.
I have a good goblet.
I will share it with you

I was raise in an Orthodox Christian environment. This line is very similar with w the priest words call the people to the Eucharist . Its the same kind of invitation to join the communion. He is holding the chalice , containing wine, the blood of Christ and those want to join, approach voluntary .

 

[chingching]

The tree and me, a very local , personal phenomenon/ relationship. Can we say though its not universal ?

true, some of the most intimate shared moments are completely universal.

 

[rodaki]

now that's what I call 'pedestrian imagination'!!


for f**** sake chingching aren't there any men around your near vicinity?? The communion aspects of sharing contain a million other things besides shagging in public spaces, lol

 

[sooo]

 

[chingching]

now that's what I call 'pedestrian imagination'!!


for f**** sake chingching aren't there any men around your near vicinity?? The communion aspects of sharing contain a million other things besides shagging in public spaces, lol

these images are of kissing not shagging. They are all very famous pictures of a kiss and all ubiquitous also, from mural remakes, postcards and internet proliferation.

Every one knows what kisses like these feel like, universal truth.

 

[lucia]

Actually the top 2 photos were famously posed by models.........

And the 3rd couple had just been beaten up by police.............

Things are not always as they seem!

Be careful of "univeral truth" it always begs the question as to whose "truth" gets to be declared universal...................

 

[Trojina]

I see 61.2 as a special inner connection that is often not manifest outwardly...no one else may know of it. It is a private understanding between people...in the way theres this private understanding between mother and babe. No one else can really see how they communicate or what their signals to one another are. The mother may know when the baby wrinkles her nose that way she is about to do something in her nappy or she wants her stuffed zebra in the next room. Other people looking on don't know about all these subtle signals. 61.2 is a very subtle connection...so subtle one can doubt it yet know it absolutely at the same time. Also i think the connection in 61.2 often goes beyond time and space...hence the idea of a crane 'calling' that cannot be seen.

I don't really see 61.2 in the pictures and I took it that Brad meant the truth here is not universal in the sense that this connection is very personal. The signals between people won't be known or understood by everyone...its between them. The way only a certain friend 'gets' your jokes or knows what it means when you make a certain gesture.

Only I think 61.2 is often more ethereal and distant than that. An understanding of anothers soul that transcends whats visible to others

 

[Trojina]

Actually the top 2 photos were famously posed by models.........

And the 3rd couple had just been beaten up by police.............
Things are not always as they seem!

Be careful of "univeral truth" it always begs the question as to whose "truth" gets to be declared universal...................

really ? its an incredible picture isn't it. I was wondering if it was for real and if the young couple had just desperately needed a shag regardless of the circumstances

was it a gesture of defiance ?

 

[sooo]

Be careful of "univeral truth" it always begs the question as to whose "truth" gets to be declared universal...................

Misunderstanding of the intended term. A child (potential/potency) is formed in a womb or egg, is more the idea (the value of a bowl is its emptiness - Dao De Jing). Actually, most 61 texts describe it quite clearly enough, including Tuck's explanation. But there are also variations or movements on a theme, as with a concerto. A little levity and illustrative creative license doesn't hurt.

The third picture has been documented differently politically, but the idea chingching was conveying had nothing to do with partisan political interpretation. They rather look as though they're beating on one another, so to speak (joke). The first picture is a posed picture of what was a very real and common sight in Time Square after the announcement of the end of WW2; but I fail to see the relevance of that information within the context of this thread, other than to say that ones definition of universal truth is interpretable, which I completely agree with. Inner truth, however, within the context of the Yi, seems pretty clear to anyone who can read.

 

[lucia]

The third picture has been documented differently politically

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/06/17/vancouver-kissing-couple.html

In their own words..............

No misunderstanding of the term universal truths (anthropology 101) no mention of eggs and wombs in Ching ching's comment!

 

[rodaki]

these images are of kissing not shagging. They are all very famous pictures of a kiss and all ubiquitous also, from mural remakes, postcards and internet proliferation.

Every one knows what kisses like these feel like, universal truth.

that is as true as truth can get, but in posting those images you created something different, it was the composition that mostly created meaning here, the unvoiced element who said it all, same way that the elements of a metaphor create a receptacle for meanings to sprout due to the way they interrelate .. Not to mention how those images already had their own weight of meaning to express.

Suffice to say, the image of a crane calling its young is intricately different to sexual expression, even if the one can include the other . .

 

[Trojina]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/06/17/vancouver-kissing-couple.html

In their own words..............

No misunderstanding of the term universal truths (anthropology 101) no mention of eggs and wombs in Ching ching's comment!

well I had never seen that picture before yet apparently its been all over the media...I escape the media pretty well I think. But what a great explanation from the guy because it rings true. Kissing is a way of calming down, a way a man might use to calm a woman down in danger. So interesting because although the photo looks quite sexual, her skirt has ridden up etc its not at all. Shes fallen over , they've been knocked over and the kiss is for reassurance in a pretty extreme situation. He is not about to shag her. However I recall from psychology studies one kind of arousal easily transfers to another. So fear or anger in danger can easily transmute to arousal through sexual passion...so they would have been quite aroused through shock...and turned the shock into some thing else, to passion.

 

[Trojina]

that is as true as truth can get, but in posting those images you created something different, it was the composition that mostly created meaning here, the unvoiced element who said it all, same way that the elements of a metaphor create a receptacle for meanings to sprout due to the way they interrelate .. Not to mention how those images already had their own weight of meaning to express.

Suffice to say, the image of a crane calling its young is intricately different to sexual expression, even if the one can include the other . .

je ne comprends pas that sentence

 

[sooo]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/06/17/vancouver-kissing-couple.html

In their own words..............

No misunderstanding of the term universal truths (anthropology 101) no mention of eggs and wombs in Ching ching's comment!

I was referring to Yijing or DDJ text. I agreed with your bigger statement r.e. universal truth being interpretable. I was also pointing out that the Yi subject of 61's inner truth (specifically) is something not difficult to find in the Yi's texts.

In regard to that picture. I tried to say that it was not chingching's intent to make a political statement but using the image more as a creative expression. Two separate meanings.

I know you get hot on sociopolitical issues, but I think you're mixing apple and oranges here.

 

[chingching]

The way only a certain friend 'gets' your jokes or knows what it means when you make a certain gesture.

exactly trojan, but everyone knows what having an in joke with someone feels like, the specific joke is personal but having an in joke with a friend is universal. A true kiss is personal, you cant do that with everyone or experience it from a picture real or posed, but as a symbol it evokes something universal. Films are still pictures flickering in succession, but I still cry when an actor warbles out the words I love you. (one of many examples where I cry )

Actually the top 2 photos were famously posed by models.........

And the 3rd couple had just been beaten up by police.............

Things are not always as they seem!

Be careful of "univeral truth" it always begs the question as to whose "truth" gets to be declared universal...................

I feel like I posted a picture of a finger pointing at the sky, I see it as a picture of the sky, but others see it as a picture of a pointed finger.

The Vancouver riot kiss pic is interesting on many levels, for one the image is dramatic but the event itself was empty, a riot for not a very good reason, no political liberation etc also the couple became mini celebs from it. But going into that is prob going too far off topic.

I was going to post klimt's kiss as well, which is completely fictitious, but still a universal image and more reproduced than the others. I posted them more for the reason that everyone would have seen at least one of those. But if you see shagging in them so be it, I just read on wikipedia about klimt's kiss

According to writer Frank Whitford: "Together the man and the woman form the shape of a penis and I think that is intentional - it's about sex and about the fulfillment of sex between a man and a woman." [1]

.

Just in case there's been a misunderstanding I had no intention of making some kind of argument against Bradford. I was throwing ideas around is all.

I haven't been able to integrate the idea of the father son relationship though, as I had this line with a man I was interested in and felt a real connection with and applying that makes it a bit too Freudian for me. But I suppose maybe it represents someone taking a provider role, and that role is mostly taken up as a way to care for a valued person.

 

[chingching]

je ne comprends pas that sentence

I'm a bit lost too rodaki, I agree with what you say about images creating a meaning of their own, but I never said sexual expression was THE manifestation of 61.2, in fact earlier in this thread I've given example of a friend who felt was like a brother on first meeting, a neighbour who I didn't like but yi gave me 61.2 as the answer to my query about him and my connection with my sister.

I hope I haven't offended you because I meant no harm in posting those images. That said I do think sexual connection can be a way of sharing inner truth too, so in writing this now I don't want to rule that out either. Sex can also be oh so the opposite of 61.2 and more like 12 or 39. But we cant win them all.

 

[anemos]

I hope I haven't offended you because I meant no harm in posting those images. That said I do think sexual connection can be a way of sharing inner truth too, so in writing this now I don't want to rule that out either. Sex can also be oh so the opposite of 61.2 and more like 12 or 39. But we cant win them all.

I believe it does. There is a spiritual aspect in sexual intercourse. Its not only a bodily meeting, imho. It goes beyond that.

 

[rodaki]

Originally Posted by rodaki
that is as true as truth can get, but in posting those images you created something different, it was the composition that mostly created meaning here, the unvoiced element who said it all, same way that the elements of a metaphor create a receptacle for meanings to sprout due to the way they interrelate .. Not to mention how those images already had their own weight of meaning to express.

Suffice to say, the image of a crane calling its young is intricately different to sexual expression, even if the one can include the other . .

je ne comprends pas that sentence

I'm a bit lost too rodaki,

hm, maybe it would help you if I said that 'the whole is bigger than its parts'?


Here is what I meant: the pictures you posted had a series of common elements out of which the kiss was the most obvious hence it turned almost redundant, leaving the rest of commonalities to come through very loud . . some of those things were the sexual element, the public space element and the (widely drawn) military element (guys in uniform, a background coming straight as if out of a WW2 movie, riots). It could be that you picked these photos with no clear, conscious intention -and in that case it would show something of your inner truth at that moment- or not . . In any case, what you posted had an essence all of its own, which was beyond the mere depiction of a kiss -this is what I was referring to as the 'composition and unvoiced element'. A favorite habit of mine when looking thru magazines is to notice what is depicted in the hazy background of ads so I'm kinda wired to read into the more 'subliminal' aspects of imagery

Btw, I thought it was kinda strange that you say you'd like to avoid a Freudian interpretation of the line because to me what you posted seemed way too Freudian in taste, bearing in mind that it was Freud who saw sexual exchange behind most everything whereas a Jungian approach would take a much wider view embracing the erotic without confining it to the sexual -and no, of course I wasn't offended, I thought it was kinda funny hence the light approach

To make my point clearer though as to why I felt your images where leaving a big part of 61.2 outside, a recent experience of mine with this line will probably illustrate it better . . .

From time to time I go thru periods during which I spontaneously wake up in the middle of the night and spent 2-3 hours awake before being able to fall asleep again. Some nights ago the same thing happened only I had a peculiar experience in that, upon waking, I felt the presence of a tall man approaching, taking me up in his arms curled up in a small ball and carrying me forth, as if he was walking me through the night . .

There was nothing sexual about this feeling -it wasn't a dream really, since I was wide awake- but there was a strong element of care and support and belonging -and when I asked about it, it came as no surprise that I got 61.2

In an analogous way, I have contacted out of the blue people when they were going thru a painful situation, or my phone rings exactly at the time of me thinking the person calling, or I log into skype only to see that at that exact moment a friend has written something to me . . so while I am not in any way dismissing the erotic connection implied in the line, I feel there's far more into it than that

 

[sooo]

How far does local reach?

 

[rodaki]

very far indeed

 

[charly]

I believe it does. There is a spiritual aspect in sexual intercourse. Its not only a bodily meeting, imho. It goes beyond that.

Hi, María:

I had little access to internet last times. I missed the begining of the thread. Of course, cranes are full of meanings not only among chinese people.

Cranes were symbols of STANDING STILL, due to the waiting attitude and the outstanding heigh in comparison with hens and ducks. Higher officials used crane embroidery. Cranes were symbols of alert, to stand sentry.

They were also symbols of HARMONY IN MARRIAGE, because they are monogamous like ducks and because the name 鶴 HE4 is to a same extent similar to 和 HE2 together with / with / sum / union / peace / harmony and 合 HE2 to join / to fit / to be equal to / whole / together / round (in battle) / conjunction (astronomy) / 1st note of pentatonic scale / old variant of 盒.

And I'm afraid that there is no HARMONY in MARRIAGE without LOVE.

And there are many issues in the chinese received text that the Changes here is speaking of SEXUAL LOVE.

No matters the sacred and spiritual, CRANES are ANIMALS and I dubt they can think and feel like PHILOSOPHERS.

Cranes are like ourselves.

I will scroll up the thread as soon as possible.


All the best,


Charly

 

[chingching]

hm, maybe it would help you if I said that 'the whole is bigger than its parts'?


Here is what I meant: the pictures you posted had a series of common elements out of which the kiss was the most obvious hence it turned almost redundant, leaving the rest of commonalities to come through very loud . . some of those things were the sexual element, the public space element and the (widely drawn) military element (guys in uniform, a background coming straight as if out of a WW2 movie, riots). It could be that you picked these photos with no clear, conscious intention -and in that case it would show something of your inner truth at that moment- or not . . In any case, what you posted had an essence all of its own, which was beyond the mere depiction of a kiss -this is what I was referring to as the 'composition and unvoiced element'. A favorite habit of mine when looking thru magazines is to notice what is depicted in the hazy background of ads so I'm kinda wired to read into the more 'subliminal' aspects of imagery

Btw, I thought it was kinda strange that you say you'd like to avoid a Freudian interpretation of the line because to me what you posted seemed way too Freudian in taste, bearing in mind that it was Freud who saw sexual exchange behind most everything whereas a Jungian approach would take a much wider view embracing the erotic without confining it to the sexual -and no, of course I wasn't offended, I thought it was kinda funny hence the light approach

To make my point clearer though as to why I felt your images where leaving a big part of 61.2 outside, a recent experience of mine with this line will probably illustrate it better . . .

From time to time I go thru periods during which I spontaneously wake up in the middle of the night and spent 2-3 hours awake before being able to fall asleep again. Some nights ago the same thing happened only I had a peculiar experience in that, upon waking, I felt the presence of a tall man approaching, taking me up in his arms curled up in a small ball and carrying me forth, as if he was walking me through the night . .

There was nothing sexual about this feeling -it wasn't a dream really, since I was wide awake- but there was a strong element of care and support and belonging -and when I asked about it, it came as no surprise that I got 61.2

In an analogous way, I have contacted out of the blue people when they were going thru a painful situation, or my phone rings exactly at the time of me thinking the person calling, or I log into skype only to see that at that exact moment a friend has written something to me . . so while I am not in any way dismissing the erotic connection implied in the line, I feel there's far more into it than that

well exactly, freud saw sex in everything, you saw what you saw in the composition and the thing is you're still missing the point when you say the kiss is the common thread, that they are very famous images of a kiss is the point.

But sooo articulated my point much better than I have in his posts #45 and #40.

I realise you are outlining your truth of your overview here but to me it seems quite like 61.6.

In fact your first response you swore...??? And implied that because I posted those images there must not be any men where I live??? Come on... I really was being sincere and have been quite invested in this thread and the discussion.

And they weren't my only posts so I still fail to see why you are responding as if I have said those images were the only manifestation of 61.2. A point I have been making which you are not responding too again and again, you obviously haven't read my other posts...???

And please take ownership of your reaction to the images, its widely accepted that because it was Freud who saw sex in everything that is was in fact his psyche he was transposing onto everything. I posted the images because they are evocative of many themes, they are powerful, everyone has seen them... ah I'm repeating what I have posted 3 times already if you don't understand now I suppose you are not going to. I think its a pity. There is obviously a major disconnect and no sight of 61.2 here. If you want to talk further pm me as I'm out of this thread.

 

[rodaki]

oh my . . chingching, I posted a teasing response to your photo post, which you asked me to expand on. Since you asked I offered you my opinion, I had no intention to make more of it in the first place . . I'm sorry if you felt that you had to leave the discussion because of that, but I guess it's your decision . .

edit: oh and please read more carefully my post to you to see that I did explain where I perceive my different view as regards to the photos you posted . .

 

[charly]

oh my . . chingching, I posted a teasing response to your photo post, which you asked me to expand on. Since you asked I offered you my opinion, I had no intention to make more of it in the first place . . I'm sorry if you felt that you had to leave the discussion because of that, but I guess it's your decision . .

edit: oh and please read more carefully my post to you to see that I did explain where I perceive my different view as regards to the photos you posted . .

Hi, Dora:

Please, don´t get upset.

Most of the time things are not what they seem. I just saw the photos. The worse of it made me wonder if anybody is capable of lovemaking during a riot. People is able for doing it in the worse context, but I was caught by suspicion.

Why the picture didn´t quote the source? I looked for the source:

"They were between the riot police and the rioters, and the riot police were actually charging forward, and Alex [the girl] got knocked by a [police] shield and fell to the ground," he told CBC News. "[Scott] was comforting her and gave her a kiss to say, 'It's going to be OK,' and the photographer just took the shot at that moment."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/06/17/scott-jones-and-alex-thom_n_878910.html

In the picture maybe lovers exhibition become obscene. But in the real life there are worse things, more obscene.

People facing the cops were not citizens fighting for human, political or economical rights, nothing against oppression or lack of freedom. All the riot was for the result of a match of hockey?

Police have tendency to knocking down girls, the only person seen fallen on the ground is the girl and the press didn´t spare her the spectacle of her legs.

Why is seen as normal so much vital importance put in a sport? Why is seen as normal violence against women, even more if pretty girls?

Why the only thing that cought the eye of the public, turning the world, was a kiss?

Love is so strange that scandalizes. People kissing is extremely subversive. Public and media think if lovers have a bit of moral. Love must look for refuge in the inner self, love must circulate disguised as a vice.

The same in Shang or Zhou China that in Vancouver 2011. Zong Fu, the Inner Truth, the Cought Centre, the Last Refuge for freedom and love.

I don´t understand too much the conflict, see you later.


All the best,

Charly

 

[charly]

Genitalia, Totems and Painted Pottery, so is the tile of a page in the China Heritage Qarterly that shows a picture of prehistoric pottery with the image of A STORK KISSING A FISH, BOTH ESCORTED BY A WEAPON:

​

From the Yangshao culture, c.5000-3000 BCE. Nobody knows the meaning but everybody agree that THERE IS a meaning.

I never shared the idea of 孚FU depicting a HEN CLAW DEFENDING A CHICKEN, But I did always accept that FU was the image of MATERNAL CARE. (1)

The claw and the chicken is good for the modern shape of the character, but not for the earlier. See Sear´s Chinese etymology:

Source: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=孚
​

The claw looks more like a hand, and the kid is neither a bird nor an egg. See the same character at Chinese Text Project:

Hold in mind: MATERNAL CARE, but what about if child is alone, say, an ORPHAN? → SELF CARE.

[My internet access is collapsing, to be continued]


Charly


_________________________
(1) «孚 fú - Verità - Truth. The character is decomposed into parts:
爫 which means 爪 [zhuǎ - claw]
孑 [zǐ - child]
This symbol represents the claws of a bird’s leg in the act to protect their children, their eggs, newborn life.
Here is the truth that is symbolized by the life and value that we give to it.
Source: Zentao at: http://www.zentao.org/en/arte-cultu...mi-cinesi-chinese-ideograms/孚-fu-verita-truth

 

[bradford]

Hei Sha Li-
Thanks for the links. It's good to see people supporting Fu as a protective gesture instead of the capture or seizure that the academics are making of it (although Fu did have captive as a one of its meanings back then).
I too see the character as a statement. For me it's a mother defending her child, a pretty serious commitment, as if saying to the predator: "For me this is worth dying for- is it for you?"

 

[lucia]

In regard to that picture. I tried to say that it was not chingching's intent to make a political statement but using the image more as a creative expression. Two separate meanings.

I know you get hot on sociopolitical issues, but I think you're mixing apple and oranges here.

'Morning Sooo, no not at all, I wrote as a photographer who also happens to have studied anthropology nothing more. Thats why I wrote anthropology 101 but I could have written photography 101. It is very basic photographic or anthropological theory. The word "truth" (beyond the inner variety of 61) is very problematic both in anthropological and photographic terms (never mind politically). Dora is quite right in what she said but maybe she put it in a rather academic way.

There was nothing about politics in my post I suspect you are attributing what I said about the location and situation of the photograph to something in your thoughts not mine - if you read the link I posted I said: "In their own words"... The couple explain for themselves the context of the photo. I try to avoid ventriloquism!

The Gua 61 is about inner truth not "The Truth" inner truth is personal and cannot be universalised. Anthropology is very unsettling for some because it challenges assumptions about universals by expressing how other people experience things that "we" take as "truth". These ideas of so-called truth have a very problematic history. And in anthropological terms you cannot extrapolate Euro-American ideas of truth onto other people and their histories.

Dora talked about how photographs become receptacles of meaning - people load them with what they want to see. Historically the photograph was once elevated as some kind of "document of truth" - a good example is war photography. In fact, the first most famous photos of the American civil war were later shown to have been staged. They collected corpses and then arranged them to look like a massacre. Capa's famous picture of The Falling soldier from the Spanish civil war is still argued over today.... Photographs can also leave things out.

But photos don't have to be faked or staged to serve as containers for meaning. To revert to the WWII kissing imagary, and leaving aside that kissing in other cultural situations is not necessarily recognised in the way it is by "us";

my mum, who having been in mainland Europe during the war, was in Trafalgar Square in London on D Day and she told my daughter (who also had photos of kissing couples....) that while everyone was exuberant that the war had finally ended, it was often like a cross between New Years eve and a swingers party! She said getting jumped on by drunk strangers and "snogged" was often not pleasant and for those who enjoyed their passing pleasantries it was often loaded with guilt for missing, dead or absent partners.

So, to sum up (ha ha) a picture of 2 people putting their lips together tells you absolutely nothing about their inner truth!! How can it?

And inner truth is depicted so beautifully in Gua 61 and 61.2 expresses that as something that reaches out as a call.

 

[chingching]

I posted a teasing response to your photo post, which you asked me to expand on. Since you asked I offered you my opinion, I had no intention to make more of it in the first place . . I'm sorry if you felt that you had to leave the discussion because of that, but I guess it's your decision . .

edit: oh and please read more carefully my post to you to see that I did explain where I perceive my different view as regards to the photos you posted . .

Ok, accepted. I did read the rest of your post before but still wanted to set the record straight and make my point.



In any case...moving on.

lucia... sigh,

noone was a saying kiss=inner truth, sheesh. I have covered this a few times now. Please go back and read over all the posts.

Love is so strange that scandalizes. People kissing is extremely subversive. Public and media think if lovers have a bit of moral. Love must look for refuge in the inner self, love must circulate disguised as a vice.

The same in Shang or Zhou China that in Vancouver 2011. Zong Fu, the Inner Truth, the Cought Centre, the Last Refuge for freedom and love.

beautiful charly, I think if I had words like charly or sooo I would not be so misunderstood, but sometimes all I have are intuitions and pictures and no words at all. In fact the words betray me

It is an absolute truth that we all have shared a personal truth with another or a harmonising energy of some sort at some point, granted maybe someone out there is an anomalous loner who has never shared truth, not with others, nor god(s), nor spirit, nor soul, nothing but nothing.. but they would be the exception that proves the rule. (And I doubt such a human exists)

 

[lucia]

Chingching words above pictures:

true, some of the most intimate shared moments are completely universal.