A geometric Hexagram

[surnevs]

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One of my old friends posted this pic on Facebook recently and it made me think..... (Unfortunately, he forgot to mention from where he got the quote but as it's the illustration that matters I don't care.) Seven Circles makes up a hexagram Rose. An Eighth Circle encompasses it all. And there's probably much more to think about...

 

[surnevs]

Does anyone know from where Richard Wilhelm in his commentary to Ta Chuan, Ch. XI, 2 (Second book in the Wilhelm/Baynes ed. of I Ching, 'On the yarrow stalks and the Hexagrams and Lines) got the information that the Number Eight (8x8) represents Earth or the Square and the Number Seven (7x7) represents Heaven or the Circle?
____________

Another way of counting: 1+3+5+7+9=25 (The Number representing Heaven), and
2+4+6+8+10=30 (The Number representing Earth)

- "Another way of counting", meaning giving significance to the number of spaces between the eight circles namely: Thirty (!)​

 

[Hans_K]

Does anyone know from where Richard Wilhelm in his commentary to Ta Chuan, Ch. XI, 2 (Second book in the Wilhelm/Baynes ed. of I Ching, 'On the yarrow stalks and the Hexagrams and Lines) got the information that the Number Eight (8x8) represents Earth or the Square and the Number Seven (7x7) represents Heaven or the Circle?

I think from the fact that the circle and square are standard associations with respectively yang and yin .
Yin = even numbers and Earth
Yang = uneven numbers and Heaven

Alfred Huang writes in his own commentary on H2.2:

The ancient Chinese believed that Heaven is round while earth is square.

 

[surnevs]

Hi Hans_K, Thanks for your reply. I can see now that I should have asked:
Does anyone know from which source Richard Wilhelm in his commentary to.....
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Add.: or, should the question maybe sound: from where did Lao Nai-hsüan (Lao Naixuan, 1843-1921) have this information?
It was he who guided Richard Wilhelm into the translation we know today. I have a note in my edition on the Wilhelm/Baynes that reads: "Based on the Qing dynasties 'Balanced Compendium on the Zhou Changes' and: prof. Richard Smith, 'The I Ching, a biography, Princeton University Press" and I know that I could go to the library, lend that book again and search in it.
My hope thou were, that if someone here got the answer at hand... I mean, it occasionally happens - doesn't it?

 

[Tihia Viatar]

View attachment 5551
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One of my old friends posted this pic on Facebook recently and it made me think..... (Unfortunately, he forgot to mention from where he got the quote but as it's the illustration that matters I don't care.) Seven Circles makes up a hexagram Rose. An Eighth Circle encompasses it all. And there's probably much more to think about...

Hi !
Its explained here:

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Secret-Flower-Life-Vol/dp/1891824171/

What we use in divination is the 'female information system' from the flower.
(projecting the Flower within)

 

[surnevs]

Hi !
Its explained here:

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Secret-Flower-Life-Vol/dp/1891824171/

What we use in divination is the 'female information system' from the flower.
(projecting the Flower within)

Thank you for the link.
( Here )

 

[surnevs]

I found of interest in this book pages 27 to 43 where the temples in which these "Flowers of Life" figures are placed.
I suppose it was this geometric figure on #2 you were referring to and not my question on #4?

 

[Tihia Viatar]

I found of interest in this book pages 27 to 43 where the temples in which these "Flowers of Life" figures are placed.
I suppose it was this geometric figure on #2 you were referring to and not my question on #4?

What do you mean #2 and #4? : )



The first pattern is 'seed of life'. But its 8 spheres, just one is behind the others, as of course this is 2D. On their apexes they set the Trigrams(Qian on Top , Kun below etc.) If we connect them we get 2 interlocked tetrahedrons.

I checked the net for Images, as not much time to make one in Blender, its not in many places, sadly, so wil link from here, although I don't think in this site its the same ideas, other then this specific shape:

Drunvalo and his peoples... They go in great length in this. There is the idea this, as the family members are 'personalities' one takes before each incarnation, mirroring the Images in the I Ching(father, mother, 1,2,3 sons and daughters etc.)
If you look at it, Father and 3 Sons are one tetrahedron, Mother and 3 daughters the other. So one is heaven, one is earth and stuff...
Then there is flow, kinda long there to go into, its in the second book I think...

Then they can switch them inside specific life or at least they say they can.
I have some idea that may have some validity there, although I have doubts on much of the other stuff. But the geometry and some of these seem to check out. But there are other shapes, many of them, also they repeat bigger and bigger 4 times and its complex. : )
I'm writing it here, coz I think some of this wasn't in the books, but they teach it in seminars and stuff.

Anyway, its long topic and we(people in the open) don't know most of it I think. I definitly don't.
But in temples its usually the Flower, the seed is just the inner circles.

Lately, it seems there are systems in CM that also study this, but don't know many details other then their name yet, either. While in the Drunvalos material its called 'Sacred Geometry'.

All this are fields around ones body of course:

 

[surnevs]

I'll, hopefully, turn back. Earlier I Google searched on the Diagram "Flower of Life" and found a lot of links assembled. I also Googled the Diagram in its connection with China.
On page 40 [see link on #7] the author mentions a lot of countries where this Diagram is to be found but does he specify it?


One thing though, I don't like is that the author claims to have had a conversation with Toth (Tehuti), on page 28 for example:



So, for me, I was glad I didn't have to buy the book but could find it in Archive.org as linked above on #6

Anyway, answers can be found in the most odd and unexpected places and I am not going to neglect the possibility that in this book this counts too.

 

[surnevs]

Oh, to your question: What do you mean #2 and #4?

This reply here is #10

 

[my_key]

I had a drawing toy when I was a kid called 'Spirograph'. The Flower of Life could be easily drawn on this. I used to like colouring in the 6 'interlocking leaves'. I know I spent hours producing this sacred shape never consciously realising it's deeper meaning.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

surnevs:
Yes, Thoth... I was fine with that part, later there are acrchangels, I'm fine with that as well, although not with all details around it.
In the new age and spiritual side of things people interact with archangels often... And I have learned from people that talk with all sorts of stuff including Thoth... But I don't think its usually so directly, though...
Anyway, its part of the human experience, in my humble view, in mountains and other places they know it well, stuff like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_man_factor

In cities this is rarer to see, as need connection to nature I think... Or maybe people don't walk that paths as much...

But there are ... Other problems there, in Drunvalos material I mean... He seem to be well meaning, but some of the stuff...
Anyway, I agree with the hesitation, even if I can't fully share the reason for it. And keeping some distance there is wise idea, sometimes.Yet if the geometry is good, the geometry is good.


my_key:
I never fully resonated with it. I think there are missing parts of it that are important and that may be why it didn't... But parts of it fits so well, mentally and it seems to be important step in it all, so hopefully in the future we will see more.

As I'm hoping we will find some way to connect the systems, Chinese Metaphysics to the Western Ones. As all over both the geometry is used, looking at the Lou Shu period movements and not seeing it is silly, at times. So none so far is mentally clear enough for practitioners to follow I think. Geometry could be, but of course will need much more from both sides to do it. : )

 

[surnevs]

Hmmm, The so-called Flower of Life is fascinating. What I spotted though was an association with the Ritualnumbers, as John Blofeld * names them: 6-7-8-9, in the six leaves placed in the centre circle, the seven inner circles, the eighth surrounding circle and the Center of this representing Nine, in the picture on #2. But I do also know that this kind of Numerology is very abstract, indeed. A circle demands a center and this centre does, as the outer peripheries encompass it all. No Centre, no circle. More than one centre, not a circle (for example, two centres make an ellipse). Symbolically seen, the six leaves are the Hexagram as placed in - or growing out/up from the entity of Ritual Numbers. I don't think that, what I've written here, explains it fully, maybe because it's so abstract and kind of "Odd Math" (not math in a Western traditional sense) and also an Impulsive Idea in my head...

*) The Book of Change, London 1905, Ch. 4

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Hmmm, The so-called Flower of Life is fascinating. What I spotted though was an association with the Ritualnumbers, as John Blofeld * names them: 6-7-8-9, in the six leaves placed in the centre circle, the seven inner circles, the eighth surrounding circle and the Center of this representing Nine, in the picture on #2. But I do also know that this kind of Numerology is very abstract, indeed. A circle demands a center and this centre does, as the outer peripheries encompass it all. No Centre, no circle. More than one centre, not a circle (for example, two centres make an ellipse). Symbolically seen, the six leaves are the Hexagram as placed in - or growing out/up from the entity of Ritual Numbers. I don't think that, what I've written here, explains it fully, maybe because it's so abstract and kind of "Odd Math" (not math in a Western traditional sense) and also an Impulsive Idea in my head...

*) The Book of Change, London 1905, Ch. 4

6-7-8-9 are seen in some Feng Shui systems as one group, so currently they are the Yang Numbers. Since we are in Period 8 or 9 depending how we view it.
So they enjoy mountains in that direction(6- NorthWest, 7 - West etc. if there is mountain there, since Yang is active and we are in the lower period(6789) then they interact with each other as Yin and Yang and create wholeness. : )

So this basic math stuff can be very practical, from arranging ones room, to buildling a house - we can choose stuff that aligns with the flow around us through that.

But what do you mean ritual numbers?

 

[surnevs]

6-7-8-9 are seen in some Feng Shui systems as one group, so currently they are the Yang Numbers. Since we are in Period 8 or 9 depending how we view it.
So they enjoy mountains in that direction(6- NorthWest, 7 - West etc. if there is mountain there, since Yang is active and we are in the lower period(6789) then they interact with each other as Yin and Yang and create wholeness. : )

So this basic math stuff can be very practical, from arranging ones room, to buildling a house - we can choose stuff that aligns with the flow around us through that.

But what do you mean ritual numbers?

To name them, and I have found John Blofeld's name of them useful.
(6,7,8,9 being Yang numbers ? I'm not sure. Because Six=3 broken lines or Old Yin. Seven = 2 broken lines and 1 unbroken
line or Young Yang etc. But maybe these Ritualnumbers are rather Yin as the sum of them gives 30 [6+7+8+9=30] which is the number for Earth or Yin, thus: 2+4+6+8+10=30 or Earth. 1+3+5+7+9=25 or Heaven. The sum of these is 55 which is "... what completes the changes and transformations and sets demons and gods in movement." [Ta Chuan, The Great Treatise, ch. IX, On the Oracle. 5 & 6 Wings. pg. 308-310 in Wilhelm-Baynes, London 1968])
___________________
- Concerning the number 30, by coincidence I found myself counting the spaces in this geometric figure on #2 (counting, counting, counting seemingly leads nowhere but sometimes it can give inspiration for explorations)

 

[Tihia Viatar]

To name them, and I have found John Blofeld's name of them useful.
(6,7,8,9 being Yang numbers ? I'm not sure. Because Six=3 broken lines or Old Yin. Seven = 2 broken lines and 1 unbroken
line or Young Yang etc. But maybe these Ritualnumbers are rather Yin as the sum of them gives 30 [6+7+8+9=30] which is the number for Earth or Yin, thus: 2+4+6+8+10=30 or Earth. 1+3+5+7+9=25 or Heaven. The sum of these is 55 which is "... what completes the changes and transformations and sets demons and gods in movement." [Ta Chuan, The Great Treatise, ch. IX, On the Oracle. 5 & 6 Wings. pg. 308-310 in Wilhelm-Baynes, London 1968])
___________________
- Concerning the number 30, by coincidence I found myself counting the spaces in this geometric figure on #2 (counting, counting, counting seemingly leads nowhere but sometimes it can give inspiration for explorations)

True, sure.
But... Yin and Yang are sneaky creatures, depending where we look at them from they tend to change places, shift and move around...
The idea is as time progresses the middle number of LouShu changes.

So we have this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magic_Square_Lo_Shu.svg

But turns out the numbers change every 20 years from one point of view and in other points of view in other intervals from another.
So currently, the squere for some uses looks like this:

Basically, this way of looking at it suggests numbers 1,2,3 and 4 are the body and the 'use' is 6,7,8 and 9.
Since its period 8, the 'use' is activated now, suggesting they become yang numbers. : )

This is only for Mountain/Water placement. For all other uses there are other divisions of Yin and Yang and as you very correctly said, for Trigrams in Early/Later Heaven arrangment have other polarities.

All depends on point of view. : )
If we look at good economical times for a city, for example, its yet another different approach, although simpler one.

All depends where we look at it from I think.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

Anyway, I think this is kinda avoided as topics in here... I'm not sure why, this are the next steps at the end of the day. But anyway, lets stop here. There is much info in the net, but it falls into other systems(this was Flying Stars(XKFX) and 6 methods(Liu Fa)).

 

[surnevs]

It's maybe not... but yes, OK for now. (I got reminded of the rotating plate, yellow on one side and blue on the other. The one sitting on the right side is right when claiming it to be blue and the one sitting on the left is also right in claiming it to be yellow. Now the plate got a push and while rotating fast they both can agree that the plate is actually green)

 

[Hans_K]

But turns out the numbers change every 20 years from one point of view and in other points of view in other intervals from another.
So currently, the squere for some uses looks like this:

That's interesting, I have been working with the Loshu map for years but have never heard or read before that the numbers change every 20 years. Do you perhaps have a source for this information?

 

[my_key]

Anyway, I think this is kinda avoided as topics in here... I'm not sure why,

I don't think it is avoided. It may be nothing more than most people on the forum have not dipped their toe in this particular methodology, let alone have enough experience to comment.

As an aside I must say that I was confused with your reply to my comments about my Spirograph laden childhood. The toy drew, circles based patterns and shapes using inner and outer cogged wheels with different numbers of teeth. I don't see it as being any more than what it purported to be which is a toy for entertainment. As a child, for me, nothing was missing, it wasn't a step to anywhere it was nothing more than a toy that brought joy to me.

I wonder what parts you thought were missing that never allowed you to resonate with it fully?

my_key:
I never fully resonated with it. I think there are missing parts of it that are important and that may be why it didn't... But parts of it fits so well, mentally and it seems to be important step in it all, so hopefully in the future we will see more.

 

[Tihia Viatar]

I don't think it is avoided. It may be nothing more than most people on the forum have not dipped their toe in this particular methodology, let alone have enough experience to comment.

As an aside I must say that I was confused with your reply to my comments about my Spirograph laden childhood. The toy drew, circles based patterns and shapes using inner and outer cogged wheels with different numbers of teeth. I don't see it as being any more than what it purported to be which is a toy for entertainment. As a child, for me, nothing was missing, it wasn't a step to anywhere it was nothing more than a toy that brought joy to me.

I wonder what parts you thought were missing that never allowed you to resonate with it fully?

I meant the shape(Flower of Life/Seed of Life etc.)
What is missing, I'm not sure.