Attack of the Nuclear Hexagrams

[martin]

Why is it a 'personal', 'distorted' view, Sergio?
I'm pretty sure - no, not just pretty sure, I'm as sure as a human can be - that it's the other way around. What is distorted is the belief that we humans invented it all, that it originated exclusively in our own minds. Not only the Yi, but also math and many other things.
There was and is an 'other world' factor in all this. Of course I have no way to prove it to you.

 

[dobro p]

I think that's the crux of the thing, and I think it's what Hilary was saying earlier on.
And so the interpretive dimensions should be used in that same spirit - when they are useful, so what if they're hit and miss. The authors themselves were inconsistent in their application of their own rules of, because there was no need to be consistent. The rules were there to create ideas and imagery, metaphors and analogies, or to weigh little proverbial snippets from Chinese culture for inclusion in the Zhouyi. The rules were there to open doors and windows, not as some hard and fast scaffolding for the system, which they were later perceived to be. Of course this inconsistency led to vague justifications in minds like Wilhelm's, who had to apologize for "correctness" working so little of the time (actually worse than half the time) on the grounds of "vagaries of the Time."
Looking around us we don't see a lot of explicit order and symmetry - most of it seems to be enfolded in what looks like a superficial layer of chaos (Bohm's Implicate Order). I don't think the Yi authors had a problem in letting the Yi look like this, with hints of order and hints of chaos mixed in equal measure. In fact I personally suspect that was behind the thinking that jumbled the orderly pair of Hexagrams into the more chaotic looking King Wen arragement.

I think that describes the situation rather accurately, actually.

 

[sergio]

Hi Martin;
what I meant by "personal,distorted views"is that you (or anybody else for that matter)would be personally inclined to believe there is a divine supply of knowledge to humans at the right times in history therefore,following that line of thought,when you encounter the Yi and become powerless to explain its many intricacies,then the first explanation would be"-UUUUMH,divine overload,of course-no human mind can think in those terms-it must be a revelation!",and I consider this to be an oversimplified solution to the problem at hand.But,who knows,maybe there is a:mystery school"asociated to the Yi,discrete for obviuos reasons to all mystery schools(see an interesting post by Luis Andrade on a different thread about fang shi)But,without imposing my own beliefs on this matter,and until further proof appears,I strongly stay rooted in this world's human intellect, curiosity and creativity.So far we are not doing that bad(except for the enviroment...)
Sergio

 

[martin]

We are not doing that bad? We?
We managed, more or less, thanks to a lot of help from 'somewhere else'.
Without it - I think we would have blown ourselves up long ago. Bye bye intellect and curiosity, see you later, creativity!
Oh, and sorry for your roots, Sergio

 

[dobro p]

what I meant by "personal,distorted views"is that you (or anybody else for that matter)would be personally inclined to believe there is a divine supply of knowledge to humans at the right times in history...and I consider this to be an oversimplified solution to the problem at hand.

What makes you think that YOUR view is any less personal or distorted?

But,who knows,maybe there is a:mystery school"asociated to the Yi,discrete for obviuos reasons to all mystery schools

What makes you think there is any sort of connection between a mystery school and the divine grace that is being referred to fondly in this thread as a 'divine download'?

But,without imposing my own beliefs on this matter,and until further proof appears,I strongly stay rooted in this world's human intellect, curiosity and creativity.

What makes you think at all? The very existence of the human species with its intellectual capacities linked to the evolution of a relatively huge forebrain that enables things like planning, language, some forms of creativity and reflection - this is hugely suggestive of a divine download in and of itself. I mean, we didn't engineer our own brain size, did we?

Also, intellect is MERELY intellect, Sergio. It's not so special, not so valuable. It's one tool in the kit. One tool only.

 

[sergio]

FIRST OF ALL HELLO DOBRO;
I f you care to read all of my message first and then dissect it into critical pieces you will see that I also said I don't want to impose my own beliefs ion this subject either I only thought that I would be able to oppose somebody else's opinion with respect but apparently it generates conflict with you.I guess we all should think like you.
I also don't think there is a connection between a mystery school and divine download.I
only pointed in that direction as things to be considered outside from all the information we now posses and what we don't know exists-like divine download and mystery schools or beings from other dimensions bringing wisdom to us stupid humans.
And. why is it suggestive of a divine download and to whom?Maybe to you but not to other persons in this planet.Some others think that aliens brought knowledge to humankind and I am not going to laugh at them or ask them why do they think at all.i will certainly argue and reason with them but i would not assume they don't think at all just because my point of view is different.I don't know how we develop our intellect or huge forebrain nor do you but suggestion of something is not proof of something and
"intellect is just intellect-what is that suppose to mean to you?(or anybody else ).MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU DOBRO and MARTIN.I am not sorry for your roots by the way.I am just happy that you are different to me and we can engage in an exchange of different opinions.Unfortunately some persons react badly when they are confronted.S o much for for huge brain capacity.'eh?Oh,by"we" I meant humanity in case it was not obvious.Our
silly creativity,intellect and curiosity brought us(you and me)to this forum via an invention like the internet..Another case of divine download?(it's a joke!....)
Sergio

 

[dobro p]

FIRST OF ALL HELLO DOBRO

HELLO TO YOU, SERGIO

If you care to read all of my message first

I did that.

and then dissect it into critical pieces you will see that I also said I don't want to impose my own beliefs ion this subject either

You can't impose your beliefs on anyone, even if that were your hidden agenda. But perhaps what you were trying to say here was 'I don't think I'm right, necessarily'. Is that what you meant?

I only thought that I would be able to oppose somebody else's opinion with respect

You can, and you did.

but apparently it generates conflict with you.

No conflict at all. But I see things differently than you do, and I was interested in exploring that difference a bit.

I guess we all should think like you.

That sounds sarcastic, but maybe it's just the internet.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU DOBRO and MARTIN.

And to you, Sergio. Hope you have a good one and get lots of presents lol. (Merry Christmas to you too, Martin. Hope you have a good one get a nice divine download lol.)

Unfortunately some persons react badly when they are confronted.

Did I react badly, do you think? I don't think I did. I challenged one or two of your ideas which I found unnecessarily limited, hoping it might offer you a chance to widen your perspective a bit. Nothing more.

 

[bradford]

I have to take the side that sez that the Yi is the product of human endeavor,
but centuries of it, with hundreds of diviners participating, and centuries
of testing and refinement. I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate what
we humans can do with a long process like that. And then there's the whole
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" factor.
By the slow process of evolution, chemical molecules become chemistry professors.

 

[dobro p]

Pooh. Spoiler!

But where'd those molecules come from, huh? And where'd they get the program from to evolve into chemisty professors instead of big lakes of Campbell's Chunky Vegetable Soup?

Actually, up to the point where Homo Sapiens, possibly Neanderthals, arrived on the scene, I think it's all pretty mechanical. *After* that, we evolve according to our efforts. And intelligent effort requires guidance from those that have gone before. That guidance might take the form of a standard teacher/student relationship like you find in a zazen dojo. Or it might take the form of a non-physical intelligence imparting knowledge or inspiration or useful challenge to the right sort of receptive person. My point is that the work we do is about half of the equation, the other half being mostly the context of a divinely-created and informed universe, partly the occasional gift of grace, from above, imparted as Martin says sometimes to persons who aren't even aware they're conducting.

 

[martin]

Hmm, is Christmas not supposed to be the celebration of a very divine download?
Nowadays it seems more about downloading lots of food. Perhaps because the downloaded baby said 'eat me!' when it was older?
Are we eating nearly everything that is eatable around this time, because, well, you never know, even if it looks like a chicken it might still be Jesus?

Anyway, merry Christmas to you, Sergio and Dobro! And bon appétit!

 

[Sparhawk]

Merry Christmas to all! Now, I'll be donning the specially wired helmet I have and get ready for tonight's download... Who knows, I may even see Santa.

 

[martin]

One of the old philosophers (perhaps Spinoza, I don't remember) said something like 'God's works are hidden in nature'.
And that's how it is, I think. If there is a spiritual/divine factor in the evolution of the species, of humanity, or of the Yi for that matter, then that factor is probably hidden, subtle, very hard to detect.
In practice this means that nearly every 'work of God' can also be explained by 'natural' mechanisms and then Occam's razor will probably cut the 'work of God' hypothesis away, because it's not needed.

Having said that, things become different if you start to look at - or rather feel - them from the inside. Instead of from the outside, which is what science usually does.
Seen-felt from the inside, the 'other world' factor is fairly obvious. And when there is enough clarity in this seeing-feeling (it seems that it develops, it gradually becomes clearer) that hidden factor becomes completely obvious. It becomes a fact, an objective fact in an inner sense.

But I wonder now, is it wise to talk about such things while you are (probably) eating? And do you know what I am talking about?
Don't answer, first finish your dessert.

Merry Christmas to Luis and to you all!

 

[dobro p]

Seen-felt from the inside, the 'other world' factor is fairly obvious. And when there is enough clarity in this seeing-feeling (it seems that it develops, it gradually becomes clearer) that hidden factor becomes completely obvious. It becomes a fact, an objective fact in an inner sense.

Here's a meditation recipe. For making the 'seen-felt from the inside' clearer, I use the 20-52-48 sequence in my approach. The only effort that's required is to keep attention watchful at the 20 stage, still at the 52 stage, and then sinking into itself at 48. I try to keep the effort to a minimum though. Thirty minutes a go, two or three times daily. The seen-felt from the inside becomes clearer. Shall we call it the Seinfeldt?

Merry Christmas, y'all.

 

[martin]

Seinfeld!?
Well, I can only hope that the excercise helps and that it points in his direction, more or less.
I can't verify it. It would require that I first switch him off and then use the exercise and see if it makes him reappear.
But I can't switch him off, no way, I'm stuck with the guy! Lol.