Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
I hope somebody answers Crystal Blue's questions, because I want to know the answers too.
These trigrams are a bit of a mystery. Some authorities try to link them with the text of the Yi, but their explanations always sound like a kid trying to explain to teacher why school work isn't finished.
Does anybody actually use the trigrams?
Is a Hexagram more fundamentally an interaction between two Trigrams or a collection of six Lines - are there two discrete entities or one continuous entity?
This reminds me of discussions I often had with a friend of mine who passed away last year. He was a great Yijing practitioner. We often talked about which trigram fitted a certain object: a cat, for instance. Is a cat trigram Wind, because of his soft fur and gentle movements, or is a cat Thunder, because of its sharp claws and impulsive responses? Or is it more Mountain, because of its stubborn and inward nature? We could talk for hours about this. It teaches you a lot of how you can work with trigrams, but there is never a clear answer to these questions. A cat can be Wind AND Thunder AND Mountain. It all depends and situation and circumstances: what is the object related to? Heaven is more similar to Tree and more similar to Thunder.What is the measure of a Trigram - for example, is Heaven more similar to Tree because they both have two Yang lines, or more similar to Thunder because they both have a base Yang line?
Ah, but traditionally thunder is regarded as something which rises up from the earth, releases its energy, and falls back to the earth. So the movement of Thunder is vertical, while that of Wind is horizontal. There is no time in these building blocks by itself, you can only see time when you have a comparison.Is movement (that is, transition over time) represented moving upwards or moving downwards - I know Hexagrams are traditionally constructed upwards, but some things suggested downwards (the Thunder Trigram, for example)?
Does anybody actually use the trigrams?
Does anybody actually use the trigrams?
Why can't they be both?
This reminds me of discussions I often had with a friend of mine who passed away last year. He was a great Yijing practitioner. We often talked about which trigram fitted a certain object: a cat, for instance. Is a cat trigram Wind, because of his soft fur and gentle movements, or is a cat Thunder, because of its sharp claws and impulsive responses? Or is it more Mountain, because of its stubborn and inward nature? We could talk for hours about this. It teaches you a lot of how you can work with trigrams, but there is never a clear answer to these questions. A cat can be Wind AND Thunder AND Mountain. It all depends and situation and circumstances: what is the object related to? Heaven is more similar to Tree and more similar to Thunder.
Ah, but traditionally thunder is regarded as something which rises up from the earth, releases its energy, and falls back to the earth. So the movement of Thunder is vertical, while that of Wind is horizontal. There is no time in these building blocks by itself, you can only see time when you have a comparison.
I'm assuming they contradict at some point - for example, is Fire over Water a 'Fire' event then a 'Water' event, or a continuous process of oscillating Yin and Yang?
the formation of digrams/trigrams/hexagrams etc is done bottom up, moving from the general to the particular. As such the next position up, be it line, pair, or triple etc is a 'refinement'. The lines represent QUALITIES and so each addition of a line is a refinement of the quality of meaning.
From a trigram perspective, the BOTTOM trigram is more general, the TOP more refined. (this is not covered too well in the traditional material ;-))
I'm assuming they contradict at some point
There's a difference between comparing abstract constructs to concrete things and abstract constructs to each other, namely, we can define them so as to remove contradictions.
Just because the Hexagram becomes more specific as more lines are added doesn't necessarily mean each successive line represents something less general - the specificity is an emergent property of the Hexagram as a whole.
Hmmm, that's Western thinking; in Chinese philosophy there is no need for such a contradiction - it can be both, depending on circumstances.
I think that definitions create contradictions, as definitions can never be 100% complete.
And why should there be a difference between concrete things and abstract constructs?
The circumstances are then deliniated according to what factors?
I think it depends on the object being defined.
The former are self-preserving, the latter, sustained only by our minds.
Is a Hexagram more fundamentally an interaction between two Trigrams or a collection of six Lines - are there two discrete entities or one continuous entity?
I'm assuming they contradict at some point - for example, is Fire over Water a 'Fire' event then a 'Water' event, or a continuous process of oscillating Yin and Yang?
eight trigrams, two of which cover time issues - wind and thunder)
Circumstances/situations are bounded by limited perception, by focussing.
So the object determines whether there is contradiction or not?
Our mind creates concrete things, as well as abstract concepts.
When working with the trigrams you can see different new angles like the four trigrams starting from the bottum, in that way you see a proces in time.
And with using the trigrams you can also use the 5 element theorie, in that way you can see if they have other connections. in the Ko or sheng cycle for instance.
In every yin is a little bit of yang, and vic versa. So why not both?
In what way they cover time?
Focussing on what?
I think it is not the object but our perception of it which makes the definition. We can define an object, but when certain aspects of it are only later discovered, we might have to adjust our definition. So it is not the object, but how we perceive it.No, the object determines whether it can be defined completely.
Ah, but I believe that our mind creates these concrete things, and that without mind there are no concrete things.....it is all about perception. Which brings us back to your first question: Is a Hexagram more fundamentally an interaction between two Trigrams or a collection of six Lines - are there two discrete entities or one continuous entity? It depends on perception. There are no facts which define this.That our minds create our perceptions of concrete things doesn't necessarily mean it creates those concrete things, even if the seperateness of said concrete things is only a perception.
How can eight Trigrams correspond meaningfully to five Elements?
Details, parts of the whole, trigrams or lines instead of hexagrams....
I think it is not the object but our perception of it which makes the definition. We can define an object, but when certain aspects of it are only later discovered, we might have to adjust our definition. So it is not the object, but how we perceive it.
Ah, but I believe that our mind creates these concrete things, and that without mind there are no concrete things.....it is all about perception.
And thus, what if those things contradict?
But I was talking about the definition of objects.Again, since abstract constructs are created artificially by the individual, there is no possibility of things being 'later discovered' - they are complete upon creation. Whether they correspond accurately to reality is another matter.
Ah, a Basic Question. But does it matter?What creates the mind?
Contradiction is a choice. I never have contradiction between lines, trigrams, etc. It is just how you work with it. Contradiction is not a fact, as far as I'm concerned.
But I was talking about the definition of objects.
Ah, a Basic Question. But does it matter?
It just seems like circular reasoning - you'd define whether Fire over Water was two discrete entities or a continuous flow based on the circumstance; you'd qualify the circumstance by focusing on the Trigrams and/or the Lines.
Abstract constructs are still objects.
So you think time progresses upwards in a Hexagram? .
In the example above. 41 Is metal, wood, earth and earth. And with the changing lines, 24 is wood and for the rest earth.How can eight Trigrams correspond meaningfully to five Elements? .
Representing a process in time, as you mention above.
You say 'you'd define whether Fire over Water was two discrete entities or a continuous flow based on the circumstance', but there is not necessarily an 'or', it can also be 'and'. Still a matter of perception.
You Indeed. As such, there is no difference between them.
...Wood is the only element in 5 phase theorie that is in balance. None of the others is.
Things cannot be both discrete and continuous under the same attribute
An abstract construct is an object; it is not, however, a concrete object. Hence there is a difference.
Earth is commonly asserted as the 'balanced' Element - it is attributed to the 'changing of the seasons', for example, the 'fulcrum around which the other Elements rotate'.
Oh yes, they can.
I do not think in therms of 'beneficial', I work with what I have. You can look at them at different angles, and all aspects, can be meaningful without contradiction. But maybe you can give a practical example in which you encountered an unresolveable contradiction?
I beg to differ.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).