Beyond old and young lines, alternative readings or Flow of Changes technique

[laureet]

Beyond old and young lines, there is the "flow of trigrams" technique which allows to see what happens if you just do nothing, rest back and wait for natural development of things, or what could come after introducing an action, acting in same way in an issue, or even compare what could come after, if you act in one way or other. The "flow of change" or called by some "flow of trigrams" is an interesting experiment for some and has become a technique of choice for many others. I just could like to hear from anyone who has experienced with this technique...:bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Laureet,

Is what you propose similar in any way to this?

Bao Ti (Bao Gua)

Otherwise, please provide some examples.

L

 

[laureet]

Hi Laureet,

Is what you propose similar in any way to this?

Bao Ti (Bao Gua)

Otherwise, please provide some examples.

L

No, but that is another interesting line though...

The Flow of changes works as this:

Once you have got your hexagram for your question (as usual) and have made an interpretation, it is time to look deeper... Divide the hexagram in three pairs from down up, write each pair as the two bottom lines of three new hexagrams.

The first new hexagram (based on the two bottom lines of the original hexagram) will be the past which carried you to the present situation and to the present question you are pondering. This one will help you to understand how you came to this point and how to make it again or to avoid doing the same way.

The last one (based on the two top lines of the original hexagram) will be future or to where will you be carried if you follow the advice of the original hexagram. Is the consequence of what the main hexagram has told you or adviced you.

The middle is Chou, the metamorphosis.

Now, toss three times for adding 3 lines to the hexagram of the past and three times for adding lines to the hexagram of the future. Then take the bottom line of the Chou (middle pair you separated initially ) and add it on top of the hexagram of the past and the other line add it to the top of the hexagram of the consequence of future.

Finding the interpretation of these new two hexagrams plus the original one, you willl have:

Original answer: As always
Past: What good things or errors carried you to this point. This is called the "first step" or "step before"
Consequence: What will happen if you pay attention to the clues you got in the original hexagram of your question and follow that way or what will come naturally if that hexagram is not telling you what to do but simply what will happen, this is called the "second step" or "step after"

But you can also do more with the Chou or Metamorphosis pair, you can divide it and use the lines as base for two new hexagrams , tossing then five times more in each. Then, the readings will give you the two ways you can follow at this time, the two options which can make all change in one way or the other. As it is asumed that at any point you have two choices (even if looks like many it always can be reduced to two main choices) the Chou will give you an insight in those two choices.

This is the simplest way of running the Flow of Changes when you want to go deeper in a very important reading.:bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks! This is very interesting, indeed. May I know what is your source for it?

L

 

[laureet]

Thanks! This is very interesting, indeed. May I know what is your source for it?

L

I was taught this by Master Fong at the Chinto-gu temple in Chang Hua (Taiwan) in the beginning of the 90's. It is an extremely accurate technique and even if it is used mostly by Ijun followers, you find it also in older schools.

 

[Sparhawk]

I was taught this by Master Fong at the Chinto-gu temple in Chang Hua (Taiwan) in the beginning of the 90's. It is an extremely accurate technique and even if it is used mostly by Ijun followers, you find it also in older schools.

Very interesting. I see now where you comments about oral traditions come from. Do you know if they publish their teachings at all? Is this also the kind of martial art you practice? I remember you mentioned teaching one.

I find these accounts fascinating. Thanks for sharing. See, now it has been documented.

L

 

[laureet]

Do you know if they publish their teachings at all?

No idea

Is this also the kind of martial art you practice? I remember you mentioned teaching one.

No, I am a student of a very old martial ryu, teaching at present time, within limits of available time, the future instructors in some of the disciplines, I am not Ijun follower, Ijun is a modern Okinawan religion outbranching from Shinto with many Taoist ingredients. The Chito-gu temple is a joint temple where many Ijun, Shinto, Buddhist and Taoist masters share sacred spaces and exchange knowledge.

See, now it has been documented. L

Yes, lol , point taken :bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

Now that you've mentioned it, way back, when I was a handsome (cough! cough!) lad, I practiced an Okinawan style of Karate-Do for a few years. The name of the style was Shorin-Ryu. Very few people know that many old Japanese masters emigrated to South America after WWII and set up shop there. As things are in our countries, I found myself with no money to continue, even though the Sensei was kind enough to keep me as a student. I just couldn't force myself to accept such generosity.


L

 

[mudpie]

When you make the hexagrams from all those combinations/tosses above, do you note the changing lines, ie. the 6's or 9's , and interpret the changing lines, or do you simply use the hexagrams?
for instance, I threw a 27 initially, for "as Always"

used the first two lines and got 24 changing line 4 (9) for "past",

then with the top two lines of the first hex, i got a 28, changing line 4 for the consequence.
Then using the two middle lines of 27 as base for two more hexagrams, I threw 18 static for the first and 59: 5, 6 changing lines.

do I interpret the changing lines?

getting 18 and 59.5.6 from the Chou, it seems my two options are "fix it" or "run for your life" OR, is it both?

 

[Sparhawk]

I may be mistaken, but I think the only moving lines that are interpreted are those of the original hexagram. As Laureet said, this is something you may want to do "after" you've interpreted the original hexagram with its moving lines, if any.

L

 

[laureet]

Now that you've mentioned it, way back, when I was a handsome (cough! cough!) lad, I practiced an Okinawan style of Karate-Do for a few years. The name of the style was Shorin-Ryu. Very few people know that many old Japanese masters emigrated to South America after WWII and set up shop there. As things are in our countries, I found myself with no money to continue, even though the Sensei was kind enough to keep me as a student. I just couldn't force myself to accept such generosity.


L

If it was in Montevideo perhaps your Sensei was a blond guy (I think his name was Lopez)? He is an extremely nice person. Or a military officer who was the National Coordinator for Martial arts at the Comision Nacional de Educacion Fisica (I don't remember his name) but I think this one was Shotokan... Unless you have the luck to have one of the original Okinawan Sensei and then that blond Sensei was in that time Sempai ?

Yes, many Dansha emigrated to Uruguay, Brazil and Argentina, not only from Karate but also of Wushu and also from Aiki-Do some great Sensei. I much admire Shorin-ryu as one of the purest forms :bows:

I have had the pleasure diverse times in diverse countries to teach Shorin-ryu students groups during national or international gatherings where Sensei of other arts are invited to give a glimpse and teach some techniques to Karate-do students, I must say that are between the most dedicated In your country I went as Sempai of a Sensei because I was too young still but I was in contact with the Shorin-ryu community as well as with the Aiki-do groups of Sensei Cela and the closed Aikijutsu group of Sensei Udagawa (from the embassy of Japan) Nice times there .... I liked a little seaside place called Piriapolis (or something like that)

 

[laureet]

When you make the hexagrams from all those combinations/tosses above, do you note the changing lines, ie. the 6's or 9's , and interpret the changing lines, or do you simply use the hexagrams?

You interpret the original hexagram as usual, and from then on you usually interpret only as static in the simplified way.

However, you may use changing lines when the question refers to something very unstable, say a turbulent relationship which is always up and down or a period of time when your luck is up and down all the time or a battlefield of any kind.

What is taught is that you interpret the initial hexagram (called the view of Heaven and Earth or TianDi) with changing lines and all as usual, then the two new hexagrams (called the view of Man or RenShi) and Chou (the Metamorphosis or also called the view of the WanShi or the 10,000) if you choose to explore it, you interpret as static for all things and events which flow so slow in time that seem to be fixed or seem to be crossing by your life making you believe that past and future exist, it means events which take days, months and years to happen. But you will interpret the new hexagrams with changing lines if the question refers to something which changes so fast that can catch you unaware or in a blink, things which happen or change suddenly. However, the second way of interpretation is far more complex, but is logic because the situation itself is complex and changing.

getting 18 and 59.5.6 from the Chou, it seems my two options are "fix it" or "run for your life" OR, is it both?

If you choose to explore Chou, as you did, you are trying to see what is available for you as options at this point or if you have still time to change things.

You seem to have both options open in the reading ypu decribe.

Sometimes Chou will give you only one option (both hexagrams will be similar) meaning that you have already chosen even if you don't know it (through your acts which carried you to this point).
Most times Chou will give you two options quite similar at this moment which later will have different results.
Some few times Chou will give you (as now) two very distinct options meaning that you are still in time for Chou or for metamorphosis or for changing things the way they are going. When is like this, separate from each of the options the base trigram and put each trigram obtained on top of the trigram which is the base of the Renshi hexagram (the one you got previously as the future), then you will have the future for each option and you will be able to know where each option will carry you.

It is quite complex at start but becomes very easy with the use, the results are sometimes astonishing in the precision ...
:bows:

 

[dobro p]

Thanks! This is very interesting, indeed. May I know what is your source for it?

L

Luis, the source may be interesting, but it's essentially irrelevant. What Laureet has outlined is a defined, disciplined method of arriving at more information than you get from a simple single consultation. What he/she is presenting here is equivalent to a more complex 'spread' using Tarot or something similar.

It's the same old story: you define the parameters, and the Yi responds according to those parameters, and then some.

How much information do you need? Well? lol

 

[dobro p]

Now that you've mentioned it, way back, when I was a handsome (cough! cough!) lad, I practiced an Okinawan style of Karate-Do for a few years. The name of the style was Shorin-Ryu. Very few people know that many old Japanese masters emigrated to South America after WWII and set up shop there. As things are in our countries, I found myself with no money to continue, even though the Sensei was kind enough to keep me as a student. I just couldn't force myself to accept such generosity.

One thing I like about Laureet (well, I don't like much about Laureet actually lol) is how it's triggered you to open up a bit. I like it when people I know open up and then I know them better. You say here that you couldn't force yourself to accept the generosity of your sensei. But here's the thing: the sensei benefits by teaching you. Didn't you know that? If you find a sensei, the sensei is as lucky as you are.

When you abandoned your sensei, your sensei lost out.

 

[laureet]

What he/she is presenting here is equivalent to a more complex 'spread' using Tarot or something similar.

What is your meaning of he/she ? I am getting seriously tired of your totally unnecessary, groundless, cheap harassment...

And by the way...are you seriously comparing to Tarot ? or is just your looking out for diminishing all my postings?

It's the same old story: you define the parameters, and the Yi responds according to those parameters, and then some

Do you always dismiss what you have never tried? You must know soooo much if everything else is just same old story...good for you !

 

[dobro p]

What is your meaning of he/she ? I am getting seriously tired of your totally unnecessary, groudless, cheap harassment...!

It's not harassment. I really don't know if you're a man or a woman. I was being cautious.

And by the way...are you seriously comparing to Tarot ? or is just your looking out for diminishing all my postings? !

No, I was making a comparison, to make clear what I meant by a 'spread'. The technique you've outlined in this thread is the Yi equivalent of a spread in Tarot. Or with runestones. Or with any other oracle using discrete markers.

Do you always dismiss what you have never tried? You must know soooo much if everything else is just same old story...good for you !

I'm not dismissing it. I'm accepting it as another way to go deeper into a Yi response. You misunderstood what I was saying.

 

[laureet]

I don't like much about Laureet actually lol) .

Well, lets get serious here.

Dobro, stop harassing me or getting personal, here we are for talking about diverse subjects NOT persons or to personalize attacks because others think differently.

If you have some personal problem with me, I will gladly provide you a contact and we can meet so you get out all your problems against me as a person, but here, respect me and don't get personal anymore.

So, here is when you stop and reassume your role as a regular forum member exercising the respect that all other members deserve !

Lauree

 

[laureet]

It's not harassment. I really don't know if you're a man or a woman. I was being cautious.

Probably you know many men called Lauree, right ?

I'm not dismissing it. I'm accepting it as another way to go deeper into a Yi response. You misunderstood what I was saying.

OK

 

[laureet]

Luis, the source may be interesting, but it's essentially irrelevant.

Luis, I just wanted to comment that sources, in my opinion, are indeed relevant and you are right in asking... Sources are relevant because, between other things:

1.- Can give an idea of how the knowledge relates to its origins or is a modern development and therefore how compatible can be with your own system or if it needs to be adapted at the light of the context at which it was created or developed

2.- Allow to follow up and/or study the subject

3.- Can tell much about if it was used (practiced) or is only a theory developed but not used in practice, which relates directly to its proven efficiency.

You told me in another thread that you always look for sources or bibliography of reference, and as much as I think that some oral traditions may still be around, I think you have full reason and sources are important indeed.:bows:

 

[Trojina]

Probably you know many men called Lauree, right ?



OK

You're being unfair and making assumptions about name use/knowledge - i never met anyone called Lauree and I have no idea if its a male or female name - its not a name in the UK much that i know of so how the **** would i know if its a man or womans name, could be either - Laurie could be short for Lawrence. Plus how the **** would we know Lauree is your actual name, you put a t on the end of it and even if you didn't it could just be a forum name. When someone puts 's/he' its simply because they are unsure of gender nothing more. With regard to that issue any notion of 'harrassment' is in your head.

 

[mudpie]

i dont see why laureet gets this beating, Dobro is the one who is being unspeakbaly rude

 

[mudpie]

she is on the defensive because of his crude remarks, supposedly made infun, and who wouldnt be?

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, the source may be interesting, but it's essentially irrelevant. What Laureet has outlined is a defined, disciplined method of arriving at more information than you get from a simple single consultation. What he/she is presenting here is equivalent to a more complex 'spread' using Tarot or something similar.

Well, that is a matter of opinion. The information may be irrelevant for you but I like to learn the most I can about the history of the Yi and how it developed in different places through eons of use. Furthermore, the more apocryphal the information, the more I like it. We, in this forum and others like it, are not much different from what happened through history, the main difference being that we are sharing our opinions and our personal ways in real time, thus creating much friction among all the different takes, but at the same time learning something in the process. I, for once, love to learn new things, even if they prove to be time wasters and useless pursuits. Since I don't consider to be on the brink of enlightenment, the more I can learn, useless as it may be, the better. There are things you read, such as history or plain fiction, for the full pleasure of reading.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

One thing I like about Laureet (well, I don't like much about Laureet actually lol) is how it's triggered you to open up a bit. I like it when people I know open up and then I know them better. You say here that you couldn't force yourself to accept the generosity of your sensei. But here's the thing: the sensei benefits by teaching you. Didn't you know that? If you find a sensei, the sensei is as lucky as you are.

When you abandoned your sensei, your sensei lost out.

Well, I'm glad you learned something new about me. Pretty much like a marriage, It only took a years...

As for what you say, in retrospect, of course I agree with you about him having lost as much as I did. On the other hand, I was 18, quite immature and penniless. I also dropped one or two real loves and possibly "real" soulmates in those years, something I still regret but hey!, life is a school: you don't ace all the tests...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

I personally think that the "hazing" of Lauree should stop. I we were to get personal with all the people that we disagree with in this forum, the forum would go out the window in a couple of days. Lauree obviously has much to share from a historical ethnic angle that I haven't seen here in all the years I've been reading and writing in Clarity. Even if I find anything to disagree with her accounts it doesn't mean I would discard her, or anybody here, off-hand and based on a couple of posts or her online personality.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

If it was in Montevideo perhaps your Sensei was a blond guy (I think his name was Lopez)? He is an extremely nice person. Or a military officer who was the National Coordinator for Martial arts at the Comision Nacional de Educacion Fisica (I don't remember his name) but I think this one was Shotokan... Unless you have the luck to have one of the original Okinawan Sensei and then that blond Sensei was in that time Sempai ?

My Sensei's name was Carlos Pazos, he was under the supervision of Sensei Brickman of Buenos Aires and him was under Sensei Miyazato. This was in the late 70's. I know exactly who you mean that was in charge of Shotokan in Montevideo. I can't remember his name now but I remember his face, a face that looked like it was sculpted by fists. Only problem with him, being military and all, is that he never had the admiration of most people that were not part of the government or associated with the military. Remember that Uruguay, as well as Argentina and Chile, were all under military dictatorships in those years. They were pretty much despised by all but their extended, inbreed families... After all this years I still cannot shake my distaste for the kind of power that can be achieved by sheer brutality, dressed in a uniform , against its own people.

I have had the pleasure diverse times in diverse countries to teach Shorin-ryu students groups during national or international gatherings where Sensei of other arts are invited to give a glimpse and teach some techniques to Karate-do students, I must say that are between the most dedicated In your country I went as Sempai of a Sensei because I was too young still but I was in contact with the Shorin-ryu community as well as with the Aiki-do groups of Sensei Cela and the closed Aikijutsu group of Sensei Udagawa (from the embassy of Japan) Nice times there .... I liked a little seaside place called Piriapolis (or something like that)

[/QUOTE]


OMG, I met Sensei Cela and befriended many of his students. That's a Master with capital letters. Actually, one of his students was also in my Do-jo learning Shorin-Ryu. He was snake in the way he moved, using many of the Aiki-do techniques in Kumite. I remember because he knocked me down cold with a kick with the flat of his foot to my temple. Great friend, but, as you know, Kumite is Kumite...

Piriapolis is a beautiful place, yes. As I get older, I miss the old country a lot.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, I just wanted to comment that sources, in my opinion, are indeed relevant and you are right in asking... Sources are relevant because, between other things:

Hey, you don't have to convince me of that. I'll keep asking for sources. I'm like a proverbial "bag lady": I don't throw away anything I find interesting. There is always something new to learn.

L

 

[bruce_g]

Luis, my friend, you look rather dashing on a white horse.

I also didn't know if Laureet was a man or woman; not that it should matter. As for receiving respect, well, when someone rides into a foreign place, it's probably wiser to settle in for a bit before trying to enlighten the town; and if a couple of local cowboys get a bit confrontational, it's probably wiser to not start out by calling them ignorant and such. Ya know, 56 kinda stuff.

But I've enjoyed Laureet's direct way of speaking. She's been only kind to me, and I've found some of her ideas very interesting. The leaf in water image is still floating around in my head.

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, my friend, you look rather dashing on a white horse.

My mom says that I'm dashing regardless of circumstances or the color of my steed...

I also didn't know if Laureet was a man or woman; not that it should matter. As for receiving respect, well, when someone rides into a foreign place, it's probably wiser to settle in for a bit before trying to enlighten the town; and if a couple of local cowboys get a bit confrontational, it's probably wiser to not start out by calling them ignorant and such. Ya know, 56 kinda stuff.

Perhaps you may have noticed that I made a very precise point about that and her initial attitude, many messages and a few days ago. After I spoke my mind, I've moved on. But hey, that's me; I'm more of a Collie than a Pit-bull: I can still bite hard but nobody is going to drag me three stories up bitting a tire tied to a rope (as I've seen done in North Philly by the ones that train such dogs for fights...) I'm sure you see my point... :bows:

L

 

[bruce_g]

Indeed I do, Luis. :bows:

It'd be easy to just say, let's lay off all the personal stuff, but then you never really get to know people personally. Then all this is purely academics, and no actual practice.