Changing lines

[pakua]

Hi all,

I have a theoretical question. Suppose you get a reading with several changing lines, such as hex 2.5.6 changinging to 20.

Suppose you don't like one of the lines, for example line 6 in this case. Suppose you take the advice to heart and change your attitude such that line 6 no longer applies.

Would that mean that hex 20 would no longer be the outcome?

Any thoughts?

 

[RindaR]

This does not have to be theoretical... - try it and see! *grin*

Rinda

 

[soshin]

Hi Pakua,

never tried that before, but I looked in hindsight on some of my readings from the last twelve months, and I could not find such a connection.

For example: 25-4,5,6 to 24 would be leading to 17 instead without the unfriendly 6th line moving. Was not like this.

I checked a few others, where the person for which I casted or me tried to change our attitude to the best of our respective knowledge - doesn't fit.

Sorry, sounded fine. Maybe someone other finds connections?

Namaste,
Soshin

 

[candid]

Pakua, interesting question.

Neither the change lines or the relating hexagrams guarantee a particular outcome. The primary hex, changes and relating hexagram are all part of the moment that you asked your question. The relating isn't always representing the future. It can also represent part of the landscape of your question and answer. Therefore the relating hex would not change if you heeded or didn't heed Yi's council. That would be determined after the fact, which a new reading would then reflect.

 

[pakua]

I've never had a feel for the relating hex. Before I came to this group, I had never read anything about how it can represent part of your question and answer. All I ever knew was that it was supposed to represent the future, what the current situation would change into. And while I could usually sense the truth of the current hex and any changing line, I could seldom feel the future hex.

I knew that when I got a hex with one changing line, if I changed my attitude/outlook, that would invalidate the whole thing, both current and future. But with multiple lines, it's less clear what happens.

Do you know of any books that describe this concept of the relating hex, and how it can represent background to the question?

 

[candid]

I do not, Pakua. Sorry. I agree with Rinda though. Why not try applying the relating as part of the landscape and see what you conclude?

 

[cheiron]

Hi Pakua - In a bit of a rush - the following might sound strident - hope not - I need to somewhere else...

I think sometimes folk who use the Yijing as an oracle forget that fact.

Remember that the Greeks went to a lot of trouble sending people all the way to Delphi for their readings and that, as far as we know, the ancients used certain people to read the Yijing for them... and they were not stupid people!

Reading an oracle is a skill and, I believe one needs a facility for it. Some might be born with that others might develop it.

It is certainly not a look-up book with an operation manual of how to do it.

So with regard to the relationship of the relating hexagram: I believe there is no answer.

For me it is sometimes the terain in which the reading sits at others it is the likely direction of movement, and sometimes I use it in other ways...

Notice how some very auspicious sounding lines can take one to what appears as a pretty inauspicious looking second hexagram.

For me it has taken much time and many years to get an understanding of how the reading is working in each case and still sometimes I am flummoxed.

You might try looking at it like this... read the result of your casting - try to figure or feel where each part might fit in to what you know. Try to see where parts might be filling in your blind spots.

Now - If the second hexagram seems to describe the terrain around you then it may well be the 'sea in which your reading' swims.

If it does not seem to fit at all but feels like the direction the first part is moving toward then that may be what it is.

There are many different ways of using the Yijing and this is only one of them (or two).

My experience is that each person develops a way of working with the Yi and the Yi generally accommodates itself to that. Even if they change their approach.

For exmple I have used Stephen Karcher's newer techniques with enormous success... and for him the second hexagram is a dynamic time/energy which is in relation to the first hexagram where the reading is situated...

My experience is that as long as you are clear as to how you are approaching the Yi, and are sincere (which also means prepared to think and consider), then it will dialogue with you meaningfully.

Sorry this is so long - hope it helps.

--Kevin

 

[cheiron]

BTW - In answer to your first Q.

I see it like that... every action we make most often changes the outcome... but energy/times can be fairly fixed and there might be little we can do to modify the outcome.

Other peoples free wills for example or irrevecable actions we have already made.

All the best

--K

 

[heylise]

Every hexagram is a 'time'. That is not necessarily good or bad, it just is. A 'time' of limping might seem a bad time if you are a victim of such a time. But the hexagram is the advice you get when you are limping, so the hexagram is not bad, it is good advice in this situation. If you can do the right things, the time might turn out to be a great one. Very often it can be seen in hindsight, even when it seems all very difficult at the moment itself.

If you listen to the lines, then you follow their good advice, which will help you through this time. And the relating hexagram also indicates a time, which modifies or completes the other one. That can be in many different ways.

I will use an easier example than the one you gave, because 2 has an extremely wide range of meanings.
If 23 changes to 11, you are in a situation where things break down. If you follow the advice of the lines, you will find the peace of 11. But if you don't, you will find the sloppiness of 11. Because 11 has both sides. It can mean there are blessings on your path, which you only have to pick up. But it can just as well mean, that you fail to pick them up, because it is too easy.
So the lines do indeed change the hexagram(s), but in themselves, not causing another hexagram. They change their value: they show the way you create your future. An oracle does not show a fixed future, it shows how you can create it.

And put IMO before everything I say, because it is always just one opinion among many others.

LiSe

 

[pakua]

Candid,

"I tried to help, you continue to be defensive, end of my part in this discussion."

Yes, the first couple of posts you were helpful. If you're referring to that.

What I was referring to was after that, starting from your July 22nd post. There was only a pretense of help after that. You know what I'm saying.

 

[jeanystar]

sorry, pakua, you did not post that article, i was getting this discussion confused with "interesting blog." {:

 

[hilary]

Me, too - very analytical and logical, that is. Sometimes it helps me to get to the stage beyond logic, sometimes it sends me in ever-decreasing circles of 'trying to make sense of'.

As for 11,2 and 36 - wasteland, hollow gourds, friends vanishing from sight... and the plight of Prince Ji at Shang. Add in the idea that some people are afraid above all of having their identity extinguished through no longer being seen. The connection between the line and 36 seems as logical as they get.

How it belongs in hexagram 11 in the first place is one for another analysis... But better apply the logic to more than just whether a hexagram is auspicious/inauspicious, or you really will be utterly stuck...

First thoughts...
imagine a situation with energy and passion flowing freely, but this underlying fear of being injured or misjudged, not being seen. Can you harness the torrent of creative energy to get you past the fear? (Will you end up injured?)

Passing the baton...

 

[hilary]

What on earth do I mean, 'at Shang'? At the Shang court, I meant to put. Too many chocolate biscuits, no doubt.

By the way, the fear of extinction idea is from Dorothy Rowe. If I remember rightly - years since I read this - she declares the human race is divided between two existential fears. Either you are afraid of extinction through not being seen at all, or of extinction through being seen too much, and 'drowned out' or some such. I think.

 

[hilary]

And strictly btw, I can't see what Pakua finds to object to in Candid's post of July 22nd.

 

[heylise]

Me neither. I just saw several people doing their best, and being scolded for not fulfilling his expectations.
End of this thread for me too.

LiSe

 

[pakua]

Hilary and LiSe,

"being scolded for not fulfilling his expectations."

That's not what I was doing.

I was unhappy when I read that post of July 22 and subsequent, and when I asked Yi it gave me 21.4.5.6, which seemed to confirm my thoughts.

If anyone has any interpretation of that hexagram which would shed a different light than what I see, I would be happy and grateful to hear it.

And if anyone wants a further explanation of why I was unhappy, I can provide it.

 

[pakua]

Rinda,

"I'm not sure how much more practical one can get than by trying it out and seeing if it works?? I don't see any theory at all in my response, it was:

"This does not have to be theoretical... - try it and see! *grin* "

This was your first response, and I had already been trying and not seeing.

I was replying to your next post about time moving backward. I'm in the present, wanting to know how my attitude and behaviours change things in the future. That's what I meant about being abstract.

 

[heylise]

Sorry for jumping up like this.Got a bit irritated. Not going to stay that way, so all is fine again. If it is fou you too, that is.

LiSe

 

[dij]

I have decided that Candid is menopausal.

Eh. Sorry, haven't been around, haven't even read this thread in it's entirety, but have a thing to add.
Now, I'm a baby when it comes to Yi interpretation, but have noticed one thing about the resulting Hex - it work better if you decide beforehand how you are going to interpret it.
Ok? So, you decide that resulting Hex will be future, and read it as future OR you decide it is starting position and read as such.

At the very beginning of my forays into Yi I sort of felt it should be left to Yi to decide (and of course, that IS best) but have since come to realize that we (and by that I mean I) lack sublimity and fluidity to accept the Yi readings at face value. For this reason, I believe Yi will work 'with you' if you 'tell it' how you plan to be reading the Hexs. Of course, you are telling 'yourself' all this, but since we are all masters of denial..

uh oh..moving house is so stressful.
don't do it.